Mormons and the term "Heavenly Father"

[why_me]

it isn’t a matter of finding fault. I merely identified what I saw. I looked around the table and noticed that all the mormons includingg the nonactive ones, which now I count them up was most of them, had from apparent force of habit, folded their arms across their bellies.

Most Chrstains I’ ve known adopt no particular posture at all while praying, except maybe bowing head and closing eyes. Some will put hands together at the palms (I am prone to do this). None that I have ever seen do this arm folding thing across the midscetion. Now I am told that this is a peculiarly morman practice.

And that is fine. but I still have to wonder why it is necessary for the Mormonsa to have a unique praying posture. Can you explain this? Is it derived from some scripture? where did this practice originate such that it appears to be universal, so that even nonactive LdS people do it habitually?

.

If catholics usually make the sign of the cross before praying that is also a posture for prayer. Not all faiths do such symbolism. I think that saying 'Dear Heavenly Father is much more respectful than just saying dear god. To say heavenly father shows a form of formality that is quite nice to the ears.

And so, why do catholics cross themselves before or after prayer? Is it derived from scripture?

Mormons interpret the lord’s prayer as an example of how to pray and not as a rote prayer to be said often. It is here that the main difference occurs. And so ‘Our father who art in heaven’ becomes Heavenly Father when the father is addressed in prayer.

 

[ibkc]

And so, why do catholics cross themselves before or after prayer? Is it derived from scripture?

It symbolizes the Cross on Calvary, so yes, it is derived from Scripture.

 

[LittleDeb]

The OP mentioned nothing about numbers.

“The” implies greatness, not quantity.

True. So if BartBurk is correct and LDS do in fact use ‘The’ and it can imply greatness but not singularity, that might make sense. But again, that has not been my experience in my area.

But, my personal experience means little in the bigger scheme of things. What matters is their theology.

 

[why_me]

True. So if BartBurk is correct and LDS do in fact use ‘The’ and it can imply greatness but not singularity, that might make sense. But again, that has not been my experience in my area.

But, my personal experience means little in the bigger scheme of things. What matters is their theology.

What matters is that the lds address god as heavenly father. It is quite nice. I am sure that catholics can do the same. Is god your heavenly father?

 

[LittleDeb]

What matters is that the lds address god as heavenly father. It is quite nice. I am sure that catholics can do the same. Is god your heavenly father?

You bet that God is my Heavenly Father. And He is THE one and only, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, Heavenly Father. Who is He to the LDS?

 

[BartBurk]

You bet that God is my Heavenly Father. And He is THE one and only, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, Heavenly Father. Who is He to the LDS?

Depends on whether they want to give you milk or meat.

 

[LittleDeb]

Depends on whether they want to give you milk or meat.

 

[J_C]

If catholics usually make the sign of the cross before praying that is also a posture for prayer. Not all faiths do such symbolism. I think that saying 'Dear Heavenly Father is much more respectful than just saying dear god. To say heavenly father shows a form of formality that is quite nice to the ears.

And so, why do catholics cross themselves before or after prayer? Is it derived from scripture?

Mormons interpret the lord’s prayer as an example of how to pray and not as a rote prayer to be said often. It is here that the main difference occurs. And so ‘Our father who art in heaven’ becomes Heavenly Father when the father is addressed in prayer.

I am not arguing that signing with the cross is scriptural or non scriptural, or in favor of this or that prayer posture, or even whether the Our Father should be prayed “often” by rote.

my question, again, is why did the mormonns go in such a direction as to teach everyone to pray with arms folded across belly? Where does this come from. I am not criticising, i just am curoious.

 

[majick275]

I think there is a good question here but I don’t think we have necessarily asked it well and thus have generated a little confusion.

LDS praying to heavenly Father and/or folding their arms for prayer is not in my mind problematic.

If we want to address the fact that they ONLY pray to the father and NOT to jesus or the holy spirit then that’s a valid discussion.

I THINK (please correct if misspeak here) that what we are trying to discuss here is that the LDS theology gives a VERY different meaning regarding who and what “heavenly father” is. in that case they pray to Elohim. an exalted man who is the literal progenitor of their spirit (soul). while mormons believe that each person is an “eternal being” in that they have always existed as an “intelligence” they require literal, divine parents to “birth” their spirit. Elohim then is the literal father of all earthly spirits. he DIRECTED the creation of the earth which included the creation of physical bodies for the first humans who then birth the ongoing bodies for the spirits that come to earth. the actual creation was performed by Jesus and Adam (Jehovah and Michael). resurrected men who lived worthily can become “exalted” and then go through this process as “heavenly fathers” themselves in an an endless progression/regression that has always existed and will never end.

That brings a very different meaning to mormon prayer. it is less of a mortal worshiping God almighty and more of a child speaking to their father when compared to Catholic prayer.

 

[why_me]

You bet that God is my Heavenly Father. And He is THE one and only, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, Heavenly Father. Who is He to the LDS?

The same. I do believe that the lds have only one heavenly father.

 

[why_me]

I am not arguing that signing with the cross is scriptural or non scriptural, or in favor of this or that prayer posture, or even whether the Our Father should be prayed “often” by rote.

my question, again, is why did the mormonns go in such a direction as to teach everyone to pray with arms folded across belly? Where does this come from. I am not criticising, i just am curoious.

They don’t. But I do believe that it comes from childhood. It gives children a ‘holy’ way of placing their hands. In the catholic faith the hands can be held together with finger pointing upward at a slant. This is also done from childhood since it gives children a ‘holy’ way of placing their hands.

 

[BartBurk]

They don’t. But I do believe that it comes from childhood. It gives children a ‘holy’ way of placing their hands. In the catholic faith the hands can be held together with finnger pointing upward at a slant. This is also done from childhood since it gives children a ‘holy’ way of placing their hands.

It’s basically an attempt to get unruly children to be still and shut up. It doesn’t work great, but the habit continues into adulthood. There is nothing sinister at all in this.

 

[BartBurk]

The same. I do believe that the lds have only one heavenly father.

I agree. But they believe their heavenly father only has one heavenly father as well and their heavenly mother has a father as well. Which leaves the LDS with two heavenly grandfathers. And they have heavenly great grandfathers, heavenly great great grandfathers, etc. But that’s meat, not milk.

 

[why_me]

It’s basically an attempt to get unruly children to be still and shut up. It doesn’t work great, but the habit continues into adulthood. There is nothing sinister at all in this.

That’s right, there isn’t anything sinister in it. It is just a way for different religious cultures to place or show reverence to god.

To leave the hands at one’s side does seem disrespectful.

And I have seen catholics before they start a meeting for a church function fold their arms when they say a Hail Mary before beginning a meeting as they all stand when saying it.

 

[LaMar]

I think there is a good question here but I don’t think we have necessarily asked it well and thus have generated a little confusion.

LDS praying to heavenly Father and/or folding their arms for prayer is not in my mind problematic.

If we want to address the fact that they ONLY pray to the father and NOT to jesus or the holy spirit then that’s a valid discussion.

I THINK (please correct if misspeak here) that what we are trying to discuss here is that the LDS theology gives a VERY different meaning regarding who and what “heavenly father” is. in that case they pray to Elohim. an exalted man who is the literal progenitor of their spirit (soul). while mormons believe that each person is an “eternal being” in that they have always existed as an “intelligence” they require literal, divine parents to “birth” their spirit. Elohim then is the literal father of all earthly spirits. he DIRECTED the creation of the earth which included the creation of physical bodies for the first humans who then birth the ongoing bodies for the spirits that come to earth. the actual creation was performed by Jesus and Adam (Jehovah and Michael). resurrected men who lived worthily can become “exalted” and then go through this process as “heavenly fathers” themselves in an an endless progression/regression that has always existed and will never end.

That brings a very different meaning to mormon prayer. it is less of a mortal worshiping God almighty and more of a child speaking to their father when compared to Catholic prayer.

This is an excellent summary. The only thing I’d clarify is that Elohim is known to Jews and Muslims (not Christians). Modern Mormons identify Him as The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Re: Jesus, you’re absolutely correct. Most Mormons agree on very little, but one thing we all agree on is that Jesus is not God, and we do not pray to him. I would never want to pray to him and I’m confident that most Mormons would probably share this sentiment.

 

[LittleDeb]

I think there is a good question here but I don’t think we have necessarily asked it well and thus have generated a little confusion.

LDS praying to heavenly Father and/or folding their arms for prayer is not in my mind problematic.

If we want to address the fact that they ONLY pray to the father and NOT to jesus or the holy spirit then that’s a valid discussion.

I THINK (please correct if misspeak here) that what we are trying to discuss here is that the LDS theology gives a VERY different meaning regarding who and what “heavenly father” is. in that case they pray to Elohim. an exalted man who is the literal progenitor of their spirit (soul). while mormons believe that each person is an “eternal being” in that they have always existed as an “intelligence” they require literal, divine parents to “birth” their spirit. Elohim then is the literal father of all earthly spirits. he DIRECTED the creation of the earth which included the creation of physical bodies for the first humans who then birth the ongoing bodies for the spirits that come to earth. the actual creation was performed by Jesus and Adam (Jehovah and Michael). resurrected men who lived worthily can become “exalted” and then go through this process as “heavenly fathers” themselves in an an endless progression/regression that has always existed and will never end.

That brings a very different meaning to mormon prayer. it is less of a mortal worshiping God almighty and more of a child speaking to their father when compared to Catholic prayer.

Well said!!

I agree. But they believe their heavenly father only has one heavenly father as well and their heavenly mother has a father as well. Which leaves the LDS with two heavenly grandfathers. And they have heavenly great grandfathers, heavenly great great grandfathers, etc. But that’s meat, not milk.

Yup.:yup: You also make a point I hadn’t thought through. That IF there were a Heavenly Mother (or motherS, depending who you talk to) that she *could *have a different Heavenly Father. I would think though, that with their beliefs, the mother would have the same heavenly parents. Since they believe that the couples joined here on this planet, are to become gods, then they each have the same heavenly parents.

 

[BartBurk]

Well said!!

Yup.:yup: You also make a point I hadn’t thought through. That IF there were a Heavenly Mother (or motherS, depending who you talk to) that she *could *have a different Heavenly Father. I would think though, that with their beliefs, the mother would have the same heavenly parents. Since they believe that the couples joined here on this planet, are to become gods, then they each have the same heavenly parents.

Nope – you’re right.

 

[majick275]

well they could have different “heavenly mothers” since it is expected that exalted beings have polygynous marriages.

 

[zerinus]

my question, again, is why did the mormonns go in such a direction as to teach everyone to pray with arms folded across belly? Where does this come from. I am not criticising, i just am curoious.

What do you think they should do with their arms and legs when they pray?

zerinus

 

[J_C]

What do you think they should do with their arms and legs when they pray?

zerinus

thank you, I have no opinion one way or the other.

I obsrved a group of some 25 people at prayer, all but three of us were mormons, most of them no longer practicing mormons, most of them having been raised in the rmormon religion. Asd we prayed I glanced around the table and saw that every single one of them had their arms folded across their bellies in the exact same way.

because I am not familiar with a prayer posture that every single person in a group assumes in the same wya, this struck me as very odd. Christians usually are not dogmatic about body posture though Catholics will generaly expect more conformity than Protestants. Even so I have never in my life seen a prayer situation in which every single individual assumed the identidcal prayer posture, as did these mormons and ex mormones.

So later I asked a friend about it. I was told that he didn’t know the origin. he was raised that way and just always assumed that it was the Christian way to postrure during prayer.

because everyone did it I assume it was instructed deliberately. No?

so the question arose, where did it have its origin? is it just a way to do brand differentiation, to distinguissh mormon style from gentile style? how did it grow up, and why is it so ingrained that even ex mormons who are now in other religion still do it?