Mormons and the term "Heavenly Father"

[zerinus]

thank you, I have no opinion one way or the other.

I thought you did, otherwise why would you want to ask that question?

I obsrved a group of some 25 people at prayer, all but three of us were mormons, most of them no longer practicing mormons, most of them having been raised in the rmormon religion. Asd we prayed I glanced around the table and saw that every single one of them had their arms folded across their bellies in the exact same way.

because I am not familiar with a prayer posture that every single person in a group assumes in the same wya, this struck me as very odd. Christians usually are not dogmatic about body posture though Catholics will generaly expect more conformity than Protestants. Even so I have never in my life seen a prayer situation in which every single individual assumed the identidcal prayer posture, as did these mormons and ex mormones.

So later I asked a friend about it. I was told that he didn’t know the origin. he was raised that way and just always assumed that it was the Christian way to postrure during prayer.

because everyone did it I assume it was instructed deliberately. No?

so the question arose, where did it have its origin? is it just a way to do brand differentiation, to distinguissh mormon style from gentile style? how did it grow up, and why is it so ingrained that even ex mormons who are now in other religion still do it?

What posture do Catholics adopt when they pray?

zerinus

 

[J_C]

I thought you did, otherwise why would you want to ask that question?

not sure why a question would suggest the prsence of an opinion.

my previous post covered most of my thinking on this subject. apparenlty you are touchy in this area. I can’t fathom why you would be, but i accept that you are. if you don’t want to answer, or if you don’t have an answer, that is fair enough, just say so.

What posture do Catholics adopt when they pray?

zerinus

again, i believe my previous post covered this area, I refer you to it but for some elaboration, the following:
i would say it depends on the situation. There are situations in which kneeling is a very good thing. I sometimes kneel in my home, in private, and have a kneeler that saves my old knees. I kneel before the blessed sacrment in adoration chapel. some prayers at Mass are done kneeling, but not everyone is capable of kneeling, so it isn’t a hard rule.

In mixed company, i feel it is best not to make a spectacle of oneself, unnecessarily such that others would feel uncomfortable, so I will generally just bow head with hands together in the traditional praying position, palms together, fingers outstretched, making sign of cross before and after, of course, must always cross oneself.

We always pray before every meal, and begin/end every prayer with sign of the cross, hands usually together as described above.

Sometimes we just stand with hands at sides while we pray, and I would say this is the most common protestinat posture, perhaps with hands clasped in front, or behind the back, arms straight at the elbow.

There are probably other situations that I can’t think of right now, but you should get the idea from what little I write. There is no one single appropriate manner. Diffferent people will do different things depending on what they like to do. That is what I’m accustomed to, and i daresya that is what most Christians are accustomed to. But I have never seen such complete uniformity as I saw that evening at dinner amongst the mormons. as I said, it seems odd to me, and thus the question. not that I care much one way or the other. I had assumed that it is a sign of something, probably a sign of being a mormoan. since it was uniform i assumed it was instructed, and that it derives from some revelation, or mormone scripture, maybe a sermon by a beloved mormon leader, etc. given the fact that, as LaMar noted in another place, mormons disagree about just about everything else, it seems very noteworthy that they weould completely agree on this particulaer item.

 

[PaulDupre]

It occurs to me while reading this thread that Mormons must realize that they are the only ones who fold their arms while praying. If they have ever watched non-LDS movies or TV wherein people pray, they must observe that no one in these portrayals folds his arms Mormon-style. They cannot be so unobservant that they don’t notice the difference.

Many Christians place the palms together with the fingers extended upwards, others (like myself) generally interlace the fingers. I’ve seen some place the left fist inside the right hand or clasp the hands together at an angle with the fingers folded. But I have never seen a Christian fold his arms over his belly as the Mormons do.

Paul

 

[zaffiroborant]

It occurs to me while reading this thread that Mormons must realize that they are the only ones who fold their arms while praying. If they have ever watched non-LDS movies or TV wherein people pray, they must observe that no one in these portrayals folds his arms Mormon-style. They cannot be so unobservant that they don’t notice the difference.

Many Christians place the palms together with the fingers extended upwards, others (like myself) generally interlace the fingers. I’ve seen some place the left fist inside the right hand or clasp the hands together at an angle with the fingers folded. But I have never seen a Christian fold his arms over his belly as the Mormons do.

Paul

Every ones prayer posture looks odd to someone if it is different from their own. But this particular posture (arms folded) is interpreted by most people I know as a defensive/defiant posture or one of pain.

There was a scene in The Mormons on PBS of a family in a kitchen praying together. When I saw it the first time it didn’t register with me as praying. I saw the scene as a family gathered to together sharing bad news. From my experience I interpreted their posture as one of sorrow. It took someone pointing it out to me to realize it was a family prayer.

 

[why_me]

It occurs to me while reading this thread that Mormons must realize that they are the only ones who fold their arms while praying. If they have ever watched non-LDS movies or TV wherein people pray, they must observe that no one in these portrayals folds his arms Mormon-style. They cannot be so unobservant that they don’t notice the difference.

Many Christians place the palms together with the fingers extended upwards, others (like myself) generally interlace the fingers. I’ve seen some place the left fist inside the right hand or clasp the hands together at an angle with the fingers folded. But I have never seen a Christian fold his arms over his belly as the Mormons do.

Paul

I hate to rain on your parade but catholics also fold their arms when they pray. For example, before a meeting that has to do with church business or a recollection catholics can stand, fold their arms, and say the Hail Mary.

 

[why_me]

Every ones prayer posture looks odd to someone if it is different from their own. But this particular posture (arms folded) is interpreted by most people I know as a defensive/defiant posture or one of pain.

There was a scene in The Mormons on PBS of a family in a kitchen praying together. When I saw it the first time it didn’t register with me as praying. I saw the scene as a family gathered to together sharing bad news. From my experience I interpreted their posture as one of sorrow. It took someone pointing it out to me to realize it was a family prayer.

You are wrong. They fold their arms in reverence to their heavenly father. It has nothing to do with pain or a defiant posture. When catholics bless themselves before a dinner they do not have their hands together in an upward slant. Rather after blessing themselves before the prayer, their arms can also be folded.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You are wrong. They fold their arms in reverence to their heavenly father. It has nothing to do with pain or a defiant posture.

I said most people I know would interpret this posture that way.

When catholics bless themselves before a dinner they do not have their hands together in an upward slant. Rather after blessing themselves before the prayer, their arms can also be folded.

Well of course they can, I’ve just never seen anyone do it. The norm seems to be hands together in the lap, with fingers interlaced as Paul described.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That’s right, there isn’t anything sinister in it. It is just a way for different religious cultures to place or show reverence to god.

To leave the hands at one’s side does seem disrespectful.

Hands at one’s side seems that way only because it’s not your norm just as folded arms is not ours.

And I have seen catholics before they start a meeting for a church function fold their arms when they say a Hail Mary before beginning a meeting as they all stand when saying it.

I haven’t seen this at meetings I usually see hands in the lap if seated (I’m assuming their clasped since I can’t usually see them) and hands clasped at the abdomen if standing.

 

[ibkc]

I hate to rain on your parade but catholics also fold their arms when they pray. For example, before a meeting that has to do with church business or a recollection catholics can stand, fold their arms, and say the Hail Mary.

I have never seen Catholics pray with arms folded, ever, or any Christians pray that way, for that matter. In our parish when we pray as a group, if we are sitting we have our hands in our laps, fingers usually intertwined. If we are standing, then we have our hands together, fingers intertwined and either up at our chins or down by our midsections.

Maybe you Christians praying with arms folded because you live in Mormon country and the influence of this particular posture has seeped in. Around here, though, it would be a very strange thing to see.

 

[truthsilence]

I taught this lesson to three year olds in LDS primary:

cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=73047461208778&mkt=en-US&lang=en-US&w=4cee9c15&FORM=CVRE

I still find myself with arms folded while praying sometimes. It doesn’t feel like an sign of defiance. In fact, when you’ve been taught this way it actually seems like a sign of reverence. .

I’ll be more careful not to appear strange to anyone outside of Utah.

 

[J_C]

When catholics bless themselves before a dinner they do not have their hands together in an upward slant. Rather after blessing themselves before the prayer, their arms can also be folded.

i have marked the operative word in whymes post.

for me the point is that Catholics do several various postures at prayer. there is no one single acceptable posture. they “can” do this or they “can” do that and no one will even notice it. and for your information, whyme, many DO clasp hands together in all prayer, i know I do. you say Catholics do this or don’t do that, well some do and some don’t. it varies considerably, as you would know if you spent very much time around Catholics, which I suspect you do not.

but with the LdS there appears to be only the one accepable posture, which is arms folded elbows at 90-degree angle hands clasped about the forearms near the elbow, in contact with the belly.

i wonder why the early LdS considered it imp;ortant to have a uniform prayer posture that is so different from Christianity. So far we don’t know where this comes from, whether from revelation, or it was simply a manmade thing from one of the early leaders who was doing design work along the lines of making mormonims decidedly and markedly different from everyone else, for no other reason than to appeal to those who with itching ears desired something new and idifferent.

 

[Alma147]

i have marked the operative word in whymes post.

but with the LdS there appears to be only the one accepable posture, which is arms folded elbows at 90-degree angle hands clasped about the forearms near the elbow, in contact with the belly.

That’s just ridiculous. My family is about as orthodox as you’ll find among LDS and neither me, my wife or my children conform to the above description. Each member of my family invariably clasps his hands in front of himself interlocking all his fingers. I just came from teaching an early morning religion class and during the opening prayer, some folded their arms as above but most clasped their hands as occurs in my home.

Alma

 

[J_C]

That’s just ridiculous. My family is about as orthodox as you’ll find among LDS and neither me, my wife or my children conform to the above description. Each member of my family invariably clasps his hands in front of himself interlocking all his fingers. I just came from teaching an early morning religion class and during the opening prayer, some folded their arms as above but most clasped their hands as occurs in my home.

Alma

thanks for pointing that out, Alma. i figured there is variation among mormons but had not observed it myself, being that I do not have a wide array of mormon acquaintenace.

can you say where/when this practice of arms folded began and what caused mormons to do it (as a general rule) differently from other Christains?

reason I ask here is because I have had a conversation with a certain mornon friend on this matter, and have suggested that it has mostly to do with the LDS needing to be new and different rather than having anything to do with religious teaching. If i am wrong I’d like to correct myself.

 

[Jerusha]

If you look at a picture named Joseph Smith “Preaching to the Lamanites”, you will see the Natives with that arms folded posture, which is universally a sign of being closed off from whatever is being communicated. 'Nough said.

 

[why_me]

That’s just ridiculous. My family is about as orthodox as you’ll find among LDS and neither me, my wife or my children conform to the above description. Each member of my family invariably clasps his hands in front of himself interlocking all his fingers. I just came from teaching an early morning religion class and during the opening prayer, some folded their arms as above but most clasped their hands as occurs in my home.

Alma

True…sooooooo true. Thanks for the post.

 

[why_me]

If you look at a picture named Joseph Smith “Preaching to the Lamanites”, you will see the Natives with that arms folded posture, which is universally a sign of being closed off from whatever is being communicated. 'Nough said.

Yep, enough said…

 

[RebeccaJ]

I taught this lesson to three year olds in LDS primary:

cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=73047461208778&mkt=en-US&lang=en-US&w=4cee9c15&FORM=CVRE

I still find myself with arms folded while praying sometimes. It doesn’t feel like an sign of defiance. In fact, when you’ve been taught this way it actually seems like a sign of reverence. .

I’ll be more careful not to appear strange to anyone outside of Utah.

Yeah at Mass I find myself going to arms folded, and I just know everyone there would just know I am a Mormon. lol. (I am not Mormon, but was raised in the Mormon religion, folding arms as long as I can remember.)

Honestly, I don’t know that it matters, whatever works for a person. Some people pray with their arms stretched out, some sit, some kneel, some stand, some do all the above. As long as you’re praying, who cares.

J_C: I don’t know where the arms folded comes from. All Mormon children are taught this (as truthsilence said, in primary, which is religious instruction for children age 3-11). Mormon parents teach their toddlers to fold their arms and close their eyes during prayer as soon as they are able to understand simple instructions. It is the cutest thing ever to see some of the really little kids, when they exaggerate it and pull their arms really tight and squeeze their eyes shut (eyes shut is also a part of the prescribed prayer posture, peaking is a big no-no.)

Googling around, I saw references to German pretzels, but that is a myth. But it doesn’t work for the Mormon folded arms anyway because the “pretzel” prayer stance is arms crossed, over your chest, it looks like an ‘X’, not folded across your middle.

A lot of what is in Mormonism comes from early to mid 19th century New England Protestantism and free masonry. It would be interesting to find the origins of it.

 

[PaulDupre]

I hate to rain on your parade but catholics also fold their arms when they pray. For example, before a meeting that has to do with church business or a recollection catholics can stand, fold their arms, and say the Hail Mary.

why me, I am a 54 year-old Catholic, went to Catholic grade school and high school and am active in my parish, and I have never seen a Catholic or any other Christian fold their arms when they pray.

 

[Alma147]

]
thanks for pointing that out, Alma. i figured there is variation among mormons but had not observed it myself, being that I do not have a wide array of mormon acquaintenace.

can you say where/when this practice of arms folded began and what caused mormons to do it (as a general rule) differently from other Christains?

Having given this some thought, and having noticed that this is a recurring criticism of Mormonism on other sites, I returned to the LDS Institute of Religion an hour ago. I went to another class and observed the opening prayer: It was a small class of only 12 people. During the prayer 4 people folded their arms and the rest either left their hands clasped in their laps or only bowed their heads. The person offering the prayer wasn’t LDS and he clasped his hands without intertwining his fingers.

I then brought this up to several faculty members there and several of them laughed. One said, “Well we teach little children to fold their arms so they don’t hit each other during the prayer.” Another suggested it’s taught to toddlers because they don’t have the dexterity to clasp their hands.

I logged on to the LDS.org website to see what occurred during the prayers in General Conference. Although the camera was aimed at the person giving the prayer, you could see (briefly before and after the prayer) that perhaps two of the church leaders folded their arms (of about 80).

So, I’d say this is merely a vestige of what is taught to little children to help them adopt an attitude of prayer. As they grow older, most dispense with the folded arm posture.

reason I ask here is because I have had a conversation with a certain mornon friend on this matter, and have suggested that it has mostly to do with the LDS needing to be new and different rather than having anything to do with religious teaching. If i am wrong I’d like to correct myself.

I rather doubt that. Mormons have enough distinctions from the rest of the Christian world without having to invent a new posture of prayer.

Alma

 

[Publisher]

I have been reading this thread…I am amazed at the things others “pick” on about “differences”…a “difference” that makes no difference is no difference.

Does it really matter if one clasps their hands together or one crosses their arms when they pray? For those whom it does…in my wildest imagination I can’t believe God thinks twice about where my hands are when I pray…they usually are on my knees as I pray sitting down mostly…in Meeting when prayers are offered the one offering the prayer stands and removes his hat…if he is wearing one…and prays…those of us sitting in Meeting don’t shift our posture to “pray”…our heads are usually bowed in worship…but some of us never close our eyes but simply look straight ahead…I don’t know of any Friend who would criticize any other person for the posture they use when addressing the Eternal…why is it such a concern for some of you?