Mormons and the term "Heavenly Father"

[ibkc]

I have been reading this thread…I am amazed at the things others “pick” on about “differences”…a “difference” that makes no difference is no difference.

Does it really matter if one clasps their hands together or one crosses their arms when they pray? For those whom it does…in my wildest imagination I can’t believe God thinks twice about where my hands are when I pray…they usually are on my knees as I pray sitting down mostly…in Meeting when prayers are offered the one offering the prayer stands and removes his hat…if he is wearing one…and prays…those of us sitting in Meeting don’t shift our posture to “pray”…our heads are usually bowed in worship…but some of us never close our eyes but simply look straight ahead…I don’t know of any Friend who would criticize any other person for the posture they use when addressing the Eternal…why is it such a concern for some of you?

It’s certainly not a concern for me, but I do find it interesting. I think this sort of thing is fascinating - learning about why people have the traditions they do. I had never heard of praying with arms folded before, and before this thread I would have been slightly startled to see someone do it, just because it is so unfamiliar. But now, thanks to this thread, if I ever do see someone do it, I won’t be surprised because I’ll know the person probably has a Mormon background. There’s nothing wrong with that, I hope!

 

[Publisher]

It’s certainly not a concern for me, but I do find it interesting. I think this sort of thing is fascinating - learning about why people have the traditions they do. I had never heard of praying with arms folded before, and before this thread I would have been slightly startled to see someone do it, just because it is so unfamiliar. But now, thanks to this thread, if I ever do see someone do it, I won’t be surprised because I’ll know the person probably has a Mormon background. There’s nothing wrong with that, I hope!

No there is nothing wrong with seeking to understand others traditions…but seeking to make those “traditions” a bone of contention as to who is in the “right” posture during prayer is strange to me…

One of the reasons I come to this forum is to seek to understand how other’s traditions and experiences with the Eternal Light.

I had a couple Mormon friends…and since then, anytime I saw someone fold their arms when they prayed…I thought they have Mormon background or are Mormon…just as when I see someone “cross” themselves, I think they have Catholic background or are Catholic…neither is right nor wrong…just different from me.

 

[J_C]

Another suggested it’s taught to toddlers because they don’t have the dexterity to clasp their hands.

interesting. i had never heard of this being a problem with little children. after all, Catholic and Protestant children are also taught to pray from the earliest possible ages. I taught my own children to pray, and do not recall there being a dexterity p;roblem worth causing a need to adopt a unique prayer posture so at variance with those normally associated with Christian prayer.

So, I’d say this is merely a vestige of what is taught to little children to help them adopt an attitude of prayer. As they grow older, most dispense with the folded arm posture.

thanks for this information. it still doesn’t really get to the basic source of the psoture. maybe no one knows, but i’ll bet there was a beginning to it, and it didn’t have a thing to do with children unable to clasp their hands. small cheese, though. just a curiosity.

I rather doubt that. Mormons have enough distinctions from the rest of the Christian world without having to invent a new posture of prayer.

Alma

well it has been suggested that the FLDS are a sort of time capsule of what LDS looked like about 120 years ago. if this is true, then they had a lot more peculiarities then than now. as we now know the LDS group has been successful at blending in with mainstream America (to say nothing of the world at alrge) so that many of the oddities seen among the FLDS are no longer present in the LDS. Do you think that this prayer posture is one of those things that might have been more universal in late 19th century and has gradually been fading away along with the mainstreaming of the religion?

 

[Irish_Kathy]

I was raised a Mormon and taught that saying “God” is not appropriate or respectful, and to always say “Heavenly Father”. In Mormon speech and writings, “Heavenly Father” is a replacement for actually saying the word “God”.

In Mormon theology, God=God the Father, alone, Mormons do not think or believe God as the Trinity.

“Heavenly Father” or “Our Father in Heaven” are synonymous. As has already been explained, Mormons take God, as Father, very literally. They believe he fathered our souls with a heavenly mother, before the earth was made.

Ironically, this is one of the things that we actually have in common with Mormons. We both have a respect for God as Father. I don’t know about anyone else, but I think I have grown in my devotion to God the Father because of the Mormons and their respect for Him. I would often concentrate largely on Jesus in my prayer life. But the Mormon’s devotion to God the Father has actually encouraged me to go to Him more often when I pray. So, you can say, that I have actually learned something from the prayer life of Mormons that has made my prayer life better, while still remaining Catholic.

For that, I would like to say a sincere thank you. Maybe we can really learn something from each other afterall.

:kissme: Kathy :irish2:

 

[Alma147]

well it has been suggested that the FLDS are a sort of time capsule of what LDS looked like about 120 years ago. if this is true, then they had a lot more peculiarities then than now. as we now know the LDS group has been successful at blending in with mainstream America (to say nothing of the world at alrge) so that many of the oddities seen among the FLDS are no longer present in the LDS. Do you think that this prayer posture is one of those things that might have been more universal in late 19th century and has gradually been fading away along with the mainstreaming of the religion?

While it’s often suggested, I can say as someone intimately acquainted with both churches, that FLDS doctrines and practices are far removed from most historical LDS practices and theology. Take for example the FLDS concept of the person of the Holy Spirit. FLDS believe that he is the departed spirit of Joseph Smith. That heresy first appeared in 1845 and Church leaders issued this proclamation:

“Let no false doctrine proceed out of your mouth, such, for instance, as the doctrine that the devil and his angels will be redeemed: and that the tabernacle of our martyred prophet and seer, or of any other person, was, or is the especial tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, in a different sense from that considered in relation to his residence in other tabernacles. These are doctrines not revealed, and are neither believed nor sanctioned by the Twelve, and should be rejected by every saint.”

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. Joseph Smith taught that the most important responsibility upon the people of God was to build temples and perform ordinances therein on behalf of the living and the dead. The FLDS have never performed vicarious ordinances and their first temple was constructed in the past 5 years–after 75 years of existence as a Church. Their previous prophet told me that they did not believe in performing temple ordinances.

They do not and never have engaged in proselytizing, and have rather turned inward–so much so that most of them are related.

Their Church structure is a council of 7 men with one man wielding absolute power answerable to no one else. The LDS Church structure is composed of three primary councils of 85 men, and the president is not exempt from Church discipline.(see D&C 107:79-82)

The hierarchy of today’s LDS Church was established by Joseph Smith in 1835. The structure of the FLDS began in the 1930’s.

At any rate, a couple of searches on google returned quite a few references to children praying with folded arms, and a popular legend that the shape of the pretzel was designed to mimic monks praying with “folded arms.” Given these copious non-Mormon sources to others praying with folded arms, I really doubt that this practice is uniquely LDS.

Alma

 

[J_C]

FLDS believe that he is the departed spirit of Joseph Smith. That heresy first appeared in 1845 and Church leaders issued this proclamation:

“Let no false doctrine proceed out of your mouth, such, for instance, as the doctrine that the devil and his angels will be redeemed: and that the tabernacle of our martyred prophet and seer, or of any other person, was, or is the especial tabernacle of the Holy Ghost, in a different sense from that considered in relation to his residence in other tabernacles. These are doctrines not revealed, and are neither believed nor sanctioned by the Twelve, and should be rejected by every saint.”

thanks, almsa, very interesting. I have access to a copy of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. is this statement in full located there? and if so under what heading would I look. I’d be interested in reading the entire statement for context.

The FLDS have never performed vicarious ordinances and their first temple was constructed in the past 5 years–after 75 years of existence as a Church. Their previous prophet told me that they did not believe in performing temple ordinances.

what was that previous prophet’s name? was that the one that was either father or grandfather to Warrn Jeffs? I seem to dimly recall the name Rulon, or Ruelon (something like that) Jeffs.

Is there a reliable history of the FLDS that you know of? I’m about half curious about their beginnings and what exactly happened at that time, when it was, etc. as well as how they developed over time.

They do not and never have engaged in proselytizing, and have rather turned inward–so much so that most of them are related.

Their Church structure is a council of 7 men with one man wielding absolute power answerable to no one else. The LDS Church structure is composed of three primary councils of 85 men, and the president is not exempt from Church discipline.(see D&C 107:79-82)

The hierarchy of today’s LDS Church was established by Joseph Smith in 1835. The structure of the FLDS began in the 1930’s.

I can see that they differ from the main LDS group, but what did they llook like on the day they separated from the LDS? A separatist group would certainly be expected to morph over time, but at the moment of beginning, when they separated, wouldn’t they have been almost identical to the group from which they broke away?

At any rate, a couple of searches on google returned quite a few references to children praying with folded arms, and a popular legend that the shape of the pretzel was designed to mimic monks praying with “folded arms.” Given these copious non-Mormon sources to others praying with folded arms, I really doubt that this practice is uniquely LDS.

Alma

I’m not sure how “copious” two examples are, nor how reliable a legend about pretzels might be, but the question really isn’t about the origins of traditional Christian prayer postures, interesting though that might be. I and some others here have mentioned that from our own experience of many years we have never observed any Catholic or Protestant Christain praying in the momon manner of arms folded against the belly. Though my own observations of mormons are limited, and i surely defer to your very extensive expertise, I have several times observed a particular group of mostly exLDS people, of all ages from around 22, up to 75 years, pray in exactly this manner, no variation whatever. I know my observations are accurate because, like you, I looked around during the prayer specifically to see what they were doing with their arms. To the person, there was no variation.

and though my observations of mormons in prayer are limited to maybe a half dozen instances, and always the same bassic group of people, my observations of nonmormons over a period of some 35 years is very extensive, and encompasses a wide variety of sects, protestants, heretics, schismatics, cults, and a few of the various groups within Catholicism, such as charismatics and over to the extremem right wing ultra traditionalists, and in several geogrpahical locations in the U.S. from east cost to west. I can say with confidence that I have never ever observed any mormons style arm folding in any of these, your suggestions from Google notwithstanding.

 

[Mom_of_5]

Recently my LDS sister in law made a huge issue of a family making the sign of the cross and saying a prayer before dinner “in public”. She insisted that if a family (or individual) wishes to pray in a restaurant to do so silently without the “Catholic” sign. I told her that there are other religions that have the sign of the cross and the family prayed softly we didn’t know what payer they said. She shook her head showing her disgust. LDS prayer is not as ours is. My x LDS hubby said that the first time he knelt to pray was when he started to go to the CC. He still finds kneeling to pray difficult. There is not a lot of reverence in the LDS church service. The service is much different and as my LDS friend said, “Our service is more like a business meeting than a worship service”. Heavenly Father is a God in flesh and blood who has “relations” with Heavenly Mother and spirit babies are
produced. Spirit babies come to earth to take earthly bodies to continue the progression. So, the beliefs being sooo diferent than the christian beliefs, it only stands to reason that LDS prayer would be different than standard christian services.

Love and peace,
Mom of 5

 

[why_me]

My x LDS hubby said that the first time he knelt to pray was when he started to go to the CC. He still finds kneeling to pray difficult. There is not a lot of reverence in the LDS church service. The service is much different and as my LDS friend said, “Our service is more like a business meeting than a worship service”.
Love and peace,
Mom of 5

This is a little strange. When mormon families gather for family prayer in the morning or in the evenings before bedtime, the family is usually kneelling during prayer. It is true however that during the mormon services no kneelling is done. But for family prayer, the families usually kneel together.

For an lds to say that the sacrament meeting is more like a business meeting is a gross misrepresentation of the service. Sorry, she or he is wrong.

 

[why_me]

Ironically, this is one of the things that we actually have in common with Mormons. We both have a respect for God as Father. I don’t know about anyone else, but I think I have grown in my devotion to God the Father because of the Mormons and their respect for Him. I would often concentrate largely on Jesus in my prayer life. But the Mormon’s devotion to God the Father has actually encouraged me to go to Him more often when I pray. So, you can say, that I have actually learned something from the prayer life of Mormons that has made my prayer life better, while still remaining Catholic.

For that, I would like to say a sincere thank you. Maybe we can really learn something from each other afterall.

:kissme: Kathy :irish2:

Good post.

 

[J_C]

This is a little strange. When mormon families gather for family prayer in the morning or in the evenings before bedtime, the family is usually kneelling during prayer. It is true however that during the mormon services no kneelling is done. But for family prayer, the families usually kneel together.

must not be all mormon families kneeling. i have not observed this within a rather large mormna family, admittedly most of which are no longer active mormorns, but all are Christians of various stripe. most of them were raised mormon rahter than being converts. i have not seen any of them kneel.

infact, one of them my friend went to Mass with me some time back and outspokenly refused to kneel during Mass making a comment that knneeling is somehow objectionable to him. I did not pursue a question on that matter at that time but because of this thread next time I see him I will ask about it.

For an lds to say that the sacrament meeting is more like a business meeting is a gross misrepresentation of the service. Sorry, she or he is wrong.

OK i recently went to a mormon church to observe. I gather there is a difference between the testimony period and the sacrament meeting. the originial post to whihc you are addressing, whyme, says “service” without reference specifically to sacrament meeting. I agree that what I observed in sacrament meeting was quite reverent. they even closed the doors and would not allow anyone in who came late. it was very reverent.

but the testimony part of it was actually similar to a businessmeeting. they sort of voted on two issues without any debate or discussion. and then several people got up and bore sitness to Jeseph Smith being a prophet, and how Dr. Monsson is a prophet, and the Book or Mormans is true, and other such stuff. One man told a story about spilling grape juice on his newly tiled kitchen floor and freeting, but then realizeing that he had alreaddy sealed the tiles, which I took as a reference to temple sealing. tears were shed all around, and a then it broke up with some handshaking, backslapping, and a run to the cars.

this testimonial part of it was not at all reverent in my opinion, especailly compared to a Catyholic Mass which is worship of almighty God from start to finish, and the very measure of reverence.

 

[zerinus]

must not be all mormon families kneeling. i have not observed this within a rather large mormna family, admittedly most of which are no longer active mormorns, but all are Christians of various stripe. most of them were raised mormon rahter than being converts. i have not seen any of them kneel.

infact, one of them my friend went to Mass with me some time back and outspokenly refused to kneel during Mass making a comment that knneeling is somehow objectionable to him. I did not pursue a question on that matter at that time but because of this thread next time I see him I will ask about it.

Why me is entirely correct in what he says. Mormons most commonly conduct family or private prayers by kneeling. Those who may not do so would be a small minority. If you look at the artwork in LDS journals and other publications, you will find that prayers are most often depicted in the kneeling position. You seem to be basing your opinions on one group of people whom you seem to be acquainted with, most of whom by your own admission are no longer active, and some of whom apparently have left the LDS Church and are “Christians of various stripe”. I don’t know what makes you think you can tell the rest of us what Mormons do or don’t on the basis of what you observe among these folks. They are obviously not true representatives of Mormonism.

OK i recently went to a mormon church to observe. I gather there is a difference between the testimony period and the sacrament meeting. the originial post to whihc you are addressing, whyme, says “service” without reference specifically to sacrament meeting. I agree that what I observed in sacrament meeting was quite reverent. they even closed the doors and would not allow anyone in who came late. it was very reverent.

Apparently you had been to what we call a “fast and testimony meting”. That is different from a regular Sacrament Meeting. Actually, both of them are Sacrament Meetings, because in both of them Sacrament is blessed and administered. The difference is that in a regular Sacrament Meeting, people are selected in advance to give a talk or preach a sermon, and assigned a topic to talk about. In a fast and testimony meeting, which is held only once a month, no assignment is made, and people are free to get up and express their feelings or bear testimony as they feel like it.

but the testimony part of it was actually similar to a businessmeeting. they sort of voted on two issues without any debate or discussion.

What you observed here is not the “testimony part”. The “testimony part” is what you observed afterwards. That bit that you have just described usually occupies in the first few minutes of a Sacrament Meeting, and is indeed called “conducting Church business”. That is when new callings (or releases) are announced, and ward members are asked to vote on, or rather sustain those newly called in various positions. In the LDS Church (as I presume in the Catholic Church) callings and appointments are made by superiors. But unlike the Catholic Church, in our Church ordinary members are required to vote on the nomination, and to either accept or reject it if they so wish. In the Catholic Church a new bishop of a diocese is presumably appointed by the Pope or the Vatican. But are ordinary parish members required to vote to accept or reject him? I am not acquainted with Catholic procedures, but presumably not. That is one of the differences between how the two churches are organized.

and then several people got up and bore sitness to Jeseph Smith being a prophet, and how Dr. Monsson is a prophet, and the Book or Mormans is true, and other such stuff. One man told a story about spilling grape juice on his newly tiled kitchen floor and freeting, but then realizeing that he had alreaddy sealed the tiles, which I took as a reference to temple sealing.

That is the “testimony part” that you had observed.

this testimonial part of it was not at all reverent in my opinion, especailly compared to a Catyholic Mass which is worship of almighty God from start to finish, and the very measure of reverence.

Our equivalent of the Mass takes place during the first 15 to 20 minutes of the meeting, when the Sacrament is blessed and passed. That is when you probably observed that they closed the doors to prevent people from coming and going. That is indeed the most reverent part of the service. The rest of the service is taken up by the talks and sermons, and by the hymn singing. That is as reverent or irreverent as people want to make it. If people who speak are indeed inspired, the people attentive, and the hymn singing is inspirational, then it can be very reverent; otherwise it may not be.

zerinus

 

[Alma147]

thanks, almsa, very interesting. I have access to a copy of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism. is this statement in full located there? and if so under what heading would I look. I’d be interested in reading the entire statement for context.

It isn’t in the Encyclopedia. It’s from the LDS Newspaper “Times and Seasons” published in Nauvoo. This quote is from vol. 6 No. 15, Aug 15, 1845, p. 997.

what was that previous prophet’s name? was that the one that was either father or grandfather to Warren Jeffs? I seem to dimly recall the name Rulon, or Ruelon (something like that) Jeffs.

It was Warren’s father, Rulon. His predecessor was Leroy Johnson.

Is there a reliable history of the FLDS that you know of? I’m about half curious about their beginnings and what exactly happened at that time, when it was, etc. as well as how they developed over time.

Yes, there’s an excellent one titled, “Modern Polygamy and Mormon Fundamentalism: The Generations After the Manifesto” by Brian Hales. When I read it, I expected it to be a pro-LDS polemic because I know Brian and know he’s opposed to fundamentalist practices; but I was surprised at how detached his presentation was. It’s a remarkable resource. For a much briefer, and decidedly less magnanimous account of various fundamentalist groups you could read my blog from about 8 months ago. I wrote about 8 or nine articles in a series I titled, “Sects and Violence.” If you do a google search for that you’ll find my stuff. Unfortunately, blogs aren’t very adapted to reading installations because you have to go backwards. I may re-post them in order.

I can see that they differ from the main LDS group, but what did they llook like on the day they separated from the LDS?

That’s hard to pin down because they didn’t start out as a separate group. Many of the early fundamentalists were pretty surreptitious–publicly following LDS policies but privately preaching polygamy. As they were found out, they were excommunicated. They initially didn’t consider themselves a Church but as they found themselves ostracized by Mormons, they eventually coalesced into several groups. The FLDS group has had several schisms resulting in at least 5 churches today. Since they started out as a secretive group, it wasn’t until the 1930’s that they became an identifiable group–and even then their sympathizers tried to remain Mormons until discovered.

From my biased perspective, most of them strike me as having been spiritual anarchists–unwilling to follow anything but their own will.

A separatist group would certainly be expected to morph over time, but at the moment of beginning, when they separated, wouldn’t they have been almost identical to the group from which they broke away?

That seems logical, but as a simple example, my grandfather was one of the early fundamentalists. He kept a detailed diary of his life and his early writings (1895-1915) sound very orthodox. He was excommunicated in 1936 and his writings at that time make many Mormons wonder what planet he came from. As a missionary, he expressed dismay that the LDS Church did not ordain blacks to the priesthood. He hoped and prayed for a change within the Church. When that change came, it was embraced practically unanimously by Mormons. However, the reaction from fundamentalists was just the opposite. They’re significantly different from mainstream Mormons. I have taught LDS History in a college setting for nearly 20 years, and I’m convinced they’re significantly different from Mormons from any generation.

I’m not sure how “copious” two examples are, nor how reliable a legend about pretzels might be, but the question really isn’t about the origins of traditional Christian prayer postures, interesting though that might be.

What was copious, was the references to “arms folded while praying” from dozens of websites. Those who cited it seemed to do so as though children or monks praying with arms folded wasn’t out of the ordinary.

I and some others here have mentioned that from our own experience of many years we have never observed any Catholic or Protestant Christain praying in the momon manner of arms folded against the belly.

And that’s when I arrived on the scene noting that this wasn’t a Mormon manner in my household. I’ve since noticed that’s is quite rare when Mormons gather to pray.

Though my own observations of mormons are limited, and i surely defer to your very extensive expertise, I have several times observed a particular group of mostly exLDS people, of all ages from around 22, up to 75 years, pray in exactly this manner, no variation whatever.

I think that is very significant. It’s almost as though the behavior modeled for little children is abandoned by most Mormon adults but not by adults who abandon Mormonism. Hmmmm.

What I initially called “ridiculous” really has me thinking now. I wonder how pervasive this posture is among ex-Mormons.

Alma

 

[LaMar]

I think that is very significant. It’s almost as though the behavior modeled for little children is abandoned by most Mormon adults but not by adults who abandon Mormonism. Hmmmm.

What I initially called “ridiculous” really has me thinking now. I wonder how pervasive this posture is among ex-Mormons.

Alma

There are a number of people who have converted to Catholicism and other faiths from Mormonism. Many of these same people have expressed legitimate complaints about how they were treated as Latter-Day Saints. One of these guys is named Paul DuPre. Another calls himself/herself “Why Me”. These two in particular are exceptional people. I’ve learned at least as much from listening to their stories as I have from any fireside speaker.

You seem like a smart guy. I hope that your position doesn’t develop into the antithesis of theirs.

I like to see ex-Mormons, post-Mormons and others as people who are simply taking up their handcarts and pushing their way westward. In that regard, they’re emulating the best aspects of our own tradition, choosing to follow their own consciences regardless of the consequences.

 

[zerinus]

must not be all mormon families kneeling. i have not observed this within a rather large mormna family, admittedly most of which are no longer active mormorns, but all are Christians of various stripe. most of them were raised mormon rahter than being converts. i have not seen any of them kneel.

I did a random search on the Church’s website for the word “kneel,” and confined the search to just the Church magazines. It came up with 1,507 hits (some of which were duplicates or unrelated hits). Here is the result of the first 20 hits, with the duplicates and unrelated hits removed:

2. To kneel in Family Prayer
Dan Carter

Our fam’ly gathers daily to kneel in fam’ly prayer When love’s flame brightly shines as we join with those who care. Our fam’ly gathers daily to kneel in fam’ly prayer When love’s flame brightly shines as we join with those who care.

3. The Blessings of Family Prayer
Gordon B. Hinckley

The Mormons … kneel at once, while the head of the household, or an honored guest prays aloud. There is not a day passes that all of us do not kneel together in the morning before we eat and in the evening before we retire and plead with the Lord for his blessing upon you.

4. The Blessings of Family Prayer
Gordon B. Hinckley

He said: “We have not gone to bed before kneeling in prayer to supplicate divine guidance and approval. No one was excused … the Mormons … kneel at once, while the head of the household, or an honored guest prays aloud.

5. “After This Manner … Pray Ye”
Donald W. Parry

Gathering little children around him, Jesus commanded those present to kneel. As we have seen, he commanded them to kneel in prayer, and he also knelt to pray to the Father.

6. Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets
Robert D. Hales

We were assigned to reorganize a stake and began by kneeling in prayer together.

---

9. kneeling to Know
Bobby Thurman

But I left the safety of that sanctuary with the assurance that God hears and answers prayers and that any place I kneel can become sacred to me. [photo] Photograph by Welden C. Andersen Elder Bobby Thurman is serving full-time in the California San Bernardino Mission.

10. Heavenly Homes, Forever Families
Thomas S. Monson

Point number one: kneel down to pray. “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Father, mother, and each of the children kneel, bow their heads, and close their eyes.

11. Prayer
Spencer W. Kimball

There are the formal prayers where we kneel regularly. Are you ashamed to kneel, ashamed of Christ? “Is there some disbelief in God?

12. Divorce
Dallin H. Oaks

If you are already descending into the low state of marriage-in-name-only, please join hands, kneel together, and prayerfully plead for help and the healing power of the Atonement.

---

14. “No Substitute for Family Prayer”
H. Kent Rappleye

There is no substitute for family prayer when all kneel together before the Lord.” . . . Later, President Kimball counseled: “When we kneel in family prayer, our children at our side on their knees are learning habits that w…

15. Heavenly Homes, Forever Families
Thomas S. Monson

Point number one: kneel down to pray. “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Father, mother, and each of the children kneel, bow their heads, and close their eyes.

16. Heavenly Homes—Forever Families
Thomas S. Monson

Father, mother, and each of the children kneel, bow their heads, and close their eyes. kneel down to pray.

---

20. The Returned Missionary
L. Tom Perry

I opened my eyes, and much to my surprise I found all the elders in my dormitory room kneeling around my bed, concluding the day with a prayer.

zerinus

 

[J_C]

my thanks to alma and zerinis for the thoughtful and informative posts.

 

[why_me]

There are a number of people who have converted to Catholicism and other faiths from Mormonism. Many of these same people have expressed legitimate complaints about how they were treated as Latter-Day Saints. One of these guys is named Paul DuPre. Another calls himself/herself “Why Me”. These two in particular are exceptional people. I’ve learned at least as much from listening to their stories as I have from any fireside speaker.

I like to see ex-Mormons, post-Mormons and others as people who are simply taking up their handcarts and pushing their way westward. In that regard, they’re emulating the best aspects of our own tradition, choosing to follow their own consciences regardless of the consequences.

I can’t say that I have posted any complaints about the lds faith on this board. But yes, I do have my complaints but my complaints would sound petty.

SInce my recontact with the catholic faith I can say that my life has greatly imroved mainly in social aspects because the catholic vocational community and lay people have embraced me. But I am still a sinner that is for sure and that is why I say ‘social apsects’. But even in regard to improving my life spiritually, it has done so even though I can backslide.

The lds church is a fine church for those that can find comfort in it. I have no problems with the lds church. And I can defend it here or on the MAD board. The lds church has great moral principles and it certainly bucks the liberal secular trends entrenched in most societies. But its members are far from perfect humans as is the case with members of all churches.

 

[kadesh]

true but at any rate i dont think it matters thats their deal im how you call God as in Heavemly father or jsut plain God doesnt affect your salvation or relationship with God in the least we all have different views and relationships with God and thats fine b/c in the end it is just us and God.

 

[kadesh]

Mormons do have one heavenly Father i do agree but they also have a different one than Christians. our God being Christians has and always has been he created man with the breath of life aka ( Holy Spirit) not with sexual realtions with an ononimis (sp) wife that Mormons cant even proves through scripture exsisits.

 

[luvlife]

I haven’t read all of the thread so if this has been said - please ignore.

I’m suprised that we Catholics are critical of the way Mormons “pray” - arms folded over belly??? As a convert, I’m still suprised to see Catholics just standing there - head not bowed, hands not folded or anything during some of the prayers at mass. It’s very different from what I was used to as a Protestant.

So who are we to judge? Don’t WE hate it when Protestants claim to just KNOW we are praying to “statues.” As if they could read our hearts/minds?

I say leave it up to God. It’s His business - not ours when it comes to someone’s prayers.

Besides, I say “Heavenly Father…” all the time and I’ve never been Mormon or really know too much about them at all…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

You know i find that strange it ultimatley drives me crazy when i talk hteology with my friend b/c he always says heavenly father. I usually just say GOD. But if you look at “they” being moromn dont even belive in the same God as us Christians.

##** Indeed not - but try telling that to an ecumaniac.** ** If Mormonism’s Christian, I’m the Ayatollah Khomeini**

Their God was a man on another planet that rose to “Godhood” just like Jesus Christ oh and something like Jesus was a polygamist on earth.

Not really a polygamist - He married only three women: which is restrained, compared to Joseph Smith & Brigham Young **Still, three should be enough to guarantee that Jesus goes to the celestial heaven. **​

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**BTW: do Mormons believe Joseph Smith was a descendant of Jesus ? I thought he (= JS) was a pure-blooded Ephraimite; even if an Ephraimite of Scotch-Irish descent. **

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**Mormon [poly]theology certainly isn’t dull **