Mormons and the Trinity

[CatholicGuyNY]

CatholicGuyNY

The apostles never discussed the nature of God – as to having a body or not. It was not an important issue for them to take up in the early days of the Church. The nature of God was well understood from the Old Testament and therefore there was no need to rehash the subject.

Do you have any sources from Judaism (from any period of time) that point to a belief that the Father was/is embodied, hence interpreting the OT passages in question in a literal fashion? Remember, if you’re claiming that the belief in an embodied Father is “restored”, then we must be able to point to the original, and it would be helpful to see whether Jews ever viewed God as having a body.

Jesus is the firstborn of the Father – that is quite clear from the New Testament and selected Old Testament scriptures. As the son of God why would you object to such a doctrine? It is logical and scripturally sound.

Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the son of God. We also believe that the word translated as “firstborn” does not have to refer to birth order. This is clear when we look at other instances of “firstborn” (mostly in the OT), referring to persons that clearly were not actually the first in birth order. We instead believe that it denotes a preeminence (which is consistent with the use of the word/phrase in the Middle East anciently, in kingship matters). Jesus being firstborn over creation means that He has preeminence over it (and rightly so, since He was involved in creation).

Mormonism teaches that Jesus, was literally created/organized by the Father (in the same way we all were, in your belief) in His pre-mortal existence. Trinitarians do not believe this (as you may be aware, the Church battled the heresy of Arianism over 1000 years ago, which claimed that Jesus was created).

On three Gods: of course this is found nowhere in the Bible because it was unnecessary to address such a concept. Jesus is the son of God; the Holy Ghost is a personage of the Godhead; and God the Father is God over all. We have no word to describe a perfected, resurrected being who sits at the right hand of God. We know he is Jesus Christ, but when push comes to shove and someone asks – is Christ a god? (a stupid question meant only to trick the prospective answerer). The answer is Christ is a god because we have no other word to describe such a being. Joseph Smith put this to rest after scores of upset religious leaders insisted he answer the question. He answered in the affirmative. For those who choose to understand the broader spiritual meaning, God is the God of Jesus Christ (as the New Testament clearly states), with Jesus being the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost being the spirit of God or one of the two dozen names he is called in the scriptures. Are they three Gods? The answer is not found in the Bible because it is quite obvious that such a question deserves no answer. Should you choose to be literal than the answer is yes… which is one of the key reasons the Council of Nicaea was held. The Jews were quite upset that there seemed to be three Gods in the Christian religion and there was a need to qualify this. The answer was the Trinity. One God (fulfilling the Old Testament), but in three beings.

The traditional Trinity claims that there is one God in three Persons, not “beings” (see my post on our differences in definition of the word “being”). Your statements on there being “three Gods” is certainly interesting in light of Alma 11:28-29, which states that there is only one God, and no more:

**Alma 11:28-29

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.**

This is consistent with Trinitarian theology, which claims that there is only one God, who exists as three distinct Persons. We use the word “Persons” to define these entities. So, in light of the Book of Mormon’s statement above, it seems that the answer to this question isn’t so obvious, since LDS would further have to explain their belief in a plurality of gods, that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are “three Gods”, in light of their being only one God and no more.

 

[Returning_Home]

CatholicGuyNY:

That’s exactly right; the BOM is, in its first printing, wholly Trinitarian in scope and view.

The only place regarding Jesus that was changed for the second edition in 1837 that I know of was this:

“These records shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior.” (BOM, 1830, p.32)

“These records shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father and the Savior.” (BOM, 1 Nephi 14:30)

This was clearly changed for the second edition and we know that the really odd stuff going on in Mormonism started in the late 1830s as is clearly evident here. Two simple words added and an entire doctrine changed overnight.

We also find the “one in purpose” loophole nowhere in the BOM or the entire LDS canon.

If any LDS can explain this to me, please post a response.

 

[eshuster]

My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive. They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. No offense, your passion has you pretty much set and there is nothing I will write or say to change your minds. No worries, I am the same. Those of us in these forums are on the fringe and that is our nature.

Thanks to the many who sent me personal forum messages and sought me out on the web to send me email. Your inquiries are appreciated and hopefully we can continue our correspondence in a less distracting environment. I will try to answer you as I can – be patient. There is much to learn and we have time to do it.

If there was a bottom line to all of this it would be to ask yourself what is the real purpose of a church and what should be the result of following true doctrine in Jesus Christ? Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them (speaking of prophets), but we can assume such an admonition can extend to the people of a particular faith community as well.

Catholics claim faith in Jesus Christ, belief in their Church and its doctrine as being true, and faith in its leaders as being called of God.

Mormons claim faith in Jesus Christ, belief in their Church and its doctrine as being true, and faith in its leaders as being called of God.

How can we measure which one is really true? Of course this is difficult as faith is qualitative, interpretation of scripture and theology is subjective, and absolute confirmation is impossible.

However, we can look at quantitative data as being a leading indicator of how faithful a Church’s people are; how well the doctrines they believe are bearing fruit; and the effectiveness of the Church’s leaders in inspiring their people.

For this we turn to the National Survey of Youth and Religion (NSYR), 2002-2003 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and a Barna Group study in 2000/2001 which probed theological beliefs among adults in the US.

The results of both of these studies can be found at studychristianity.com/fruits_of_faith.html. You may also seek out the native data as you wish. If we simply compare the results between LDS and Roman Catholic youth, and LDS and Roman Catholic adults, one can see absolutely astounding differences in spirituality, faithfulness, and devotion. If we add on top of this the national statistics of Utah as compared to the rest of the nation we gain even greater fruits to compare.

If we look beyond LDS vs. Catholic numbers, the fact is that every other major Christian religion shows far better results for its youth and adults than does Catholicism.

Why?

Why are Catholics showing such weak numbers in these studies?

Folks – these results are hard data. There is no interpretation of scriptures here, not arguing about which religion is true or not; this data is plain and simple and does not lie.
By their fruits ye will know them. This is walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
This is why I didn’t run from Catholicism, I ran to Mormonism. I ran to a denomination of Christianity that is bearing fruit like no other Christian Church is today. Please excuse this appearance of boasting, but I am trying to get a point across.

Look at the data and see for yourself. If Mormonism wasn’t true then we as a people would not be bearing this good fruit and would be doing evil in the world. That is the bottom line. If the LDS Church was of Satan, then these results would be different – why would Satan have his children do such wonderful things? A house divided cannot stand, and therefore it would make no sense.

We can go round and round and round about who is right in this and who is right in that. At the end of the day we will go nowhere; however, with this data we can end the discussion and see where the true results of faith in Christ can how that compares between our two beloved Christian Churches.

All the best to each of you in your faith journey. If you remain Catholic, then be the very best Catholic you can be. If you choose to follow a different path in Christ, then God bless you in that path.

Eric Shuster
www.ericshuster.com

 

[eshuster]

My testimony as a parting thought:

I am a Christian.

I have been a Christian all of my life.

I believe in God the Father—omnipotent and omnipresent—who is pure love, mercy, charity, truth, faith, and judgment, having all power and knowledge and from whom all good things come.

I believe that His son Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on Calvary, was resurrected, and today sits at the right hand of God our Father. I know Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Redeemer and through the grace of His Atonement and resurrection I can be forgiven of my sins and given the opportunity to return to my Heavenly Father in the eternities as a joint heir with Christ—a resurrected and exalted being according to the scriptures.

I believe in worshipping and praying to God my Heavenly Father, just as Jesus Christ so aptly demonstrated throughout His ministry in setting the perfect example of prayer.

I believe in worshipping Jesus Christ as the only begotten son of God, ending all my prayers to the Father in His name, and taking upon me His name in truth and righteousness.

I believe in the gifts of, and in praying and worshipping under the inspiration and power of, the Holy Ghost, who together with God the Father and Jesus Christ form the Godhead—three distinct beings with a perfect oneness that defies all human comprehension.

I believe God is the great I Am and not the great I was, and as such He has blessed us with living oracles on the earth today in Apostles and Prophets, and in an open canon of the Holy Scriptures as the everlasting word of God.

I believe in community worship and have selected among the many thousands of Christian denominations in the world today the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as my own Christian faith community.

I believe that Jesus Christ leads His Church from His throne in the heavens and will come again to reign personally on earth where His kingdom will have no end.

I believe that both faith and works go hand in hand, with works being an accurate measure of one’s faith and love in the Lord Jesus Christ, and by which we will be judged as a testimony of our willingness to sacrifice and lose our lives in the service of God.

I believe family is the most important entity in the kingdom of God, and that through our love and faithfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ and His gospel we can return to our Father in Heaven and be together as families in the eternities.

I bear this solemn testimony in the holy name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen

Eric Shuster

 

[PaulDupre]

You are not a Christian, sir. You are a Mormon.

 

[twopekinguys]

You are not a Christian, sir. You are a Mormon.

Unfortunately, an unoriginal one to boot. When all else fails, bare your testimony. On 3 different threads.

 

[PaulDupre]

Unfortunately, an unoriginal one to boot. When all else fails, bare your testimony. On 3 different threads.

With apologies to Samuel Johnson, Testimony is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

[SirThomasMore]

quote=eshuster;6788297]My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive.
Quote:

Meaning you can;t defend what is indefensible, so it is best to cut and run

Quote:

They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I pray that your future books are mnore accurate and honest than the one I read

Quote:
Thanks to the many who sent me personal forum messages and sought me out on the web to send me email. Your inquiries are appreciated and hopefully we can continue our correspondence in a less distracting environment. I will try to answer you as I can – be patient. There is much to learn and we have time to do it.

Usually, people who post that they have heave had emails of support have not had those emails, they simply need to appear as i9f they have had an impact before they run

Quote:
If there was a bottom line to all of this it would be to ask yourself what is the real purpose of a church and what should be the result of following true doctrine in Jesus Christ? Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them (speaking of prophets), but we can assume such an admonition can extend to the people of a particular faith community as well.

Based on the quotes we have posted from Joe, BY, Peterson, McKoinkie, etc., I would say the fruits of your CoLDS is not from God

Quote:
However, we can look at quantitative data as being a leading indicator of how faithful a Church’s people are; how well the doctrines they believe are bearing fruit; and the effectiveness of the Church’s leaders in inspiring their people.

Ah, so YOU choose the method of how to determine. Seems awfully self-serving. But, using your test, James Jones would be a winner…right? Mohammed seems to inspire…no, your test fails

For this we turn to the National Survey of Youth and Religion (NSYR), 2002-2003 from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and a Barna Group study in 2000/2001 which probed theological beliefs among adults in the US.

lol…I love it when people have lost their argument, so they search for statistics. Truly educated people refrain from using statistics because they know poills can be manipulated. I can find polls that show the LDS Church to be a horrible church with high suicide and drug use. But so what?

Quote:
Folks – these results are hard data.

no. They are not. If we want to get into a battle of statistics, we can…the LDS Church, according to statisitcs, has a higher rate of suicide and drug use. Why?

Quote:
There is no interpretation of scriptures here, not arguing about which religion is true or not; this data is plain and simple and does not lie.
By their fruits ye will know them. This is walking the walk, not just talking the talk.
This is why I didn’t run from Catholicism, I ran to Mormonism. I ran to a denomination of Christianity that is bearing fruit like no other Christian Church is today. Please excuse this appearance of boasting, but I am trying to get a point across.

You ran from truth to a church that was designed by a spirit other than God. If that is worth boasting about, then boast away

 

[SirThomasMore]

My testimony as a parting thought:

Quote:
I am a Christian.

Not if you are Mormon

Quote:
I have been a Christian all of my life.

until you became Mormon

Quote:
I believe in God the Father—omnipotent and omnipresent—who is pure love, mercy, charity, truth, faith, and judgment, having all power and knowledge and from whom all good things come.

and who used to be a sinful man, and is one of many gods. In other words, you do not believe in the God of the Bible, but the made-up god of Joe

Quote:
I believe that His son Jesus Christ was born of the virgin Mary, was crucified on Calvary, was resurrected, and today sits at the right hand of God our Father. I know Jesus Christ is my Savior and my Redeemer and through the grace of His Atonement and resurrection I can be forgiven of my sins and given the opportunity to return to my Heavenly Father in the eternities as a joint heir with Christ—a resurrected and exalted being according to the scriptures.

And who is Satan’s big brother, is not all=poweful, who did not bring us salvation. In other words, not the True Jesus Christ.

Quote:
I believe in worshipping and praying to God my Heavenly Father, just as Jesus Christ so aptly demonstrated throughout His ministry in setting the perfect example of prayer.

Including in a temple where swecret signs and oaths are made, much like satanic worship, not anything like worshipping God.

Quote:
I believe in the gifts of, and in praying and worshipping under the inspiration and power of, the Holy Ghost, who together with God the Father and Jesus Christ form the Godhead—three distinct beings with a perfect oneness that defies all human comprehension.

including angels of light who teach a different Gospel than the one from God…in other words, NOT from God.

Quote:
I believe God is the great I Am and not the great I was, and as such He has blessed us with living oracles on the earth today in Apostles and Prophets, and in an open canon of the Holy Scriptures as the everlasting word of God.

No, you believe your god is the “Ordinary I was, god I became and when I become a god, he will just be ordinary again”

I
Quote:
believe in community worship and have selected among the many thousands of Christian denominations in the world today the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as my own Christian faith community

.

YOu chose a cult that did not come from God

Quote:
I believe that Jesus Christ leads His Church from His throne in the heavens and will come again to reign personally on earth where His kingdom will have no end.

And then you can become a god and have lots of wives and your own planet

Quote:
I bear this solemn testimony in the holy name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen

Only, it is not in the name of THE Jesus Christ, but the one invented by Joe with help from his “angel of light”.I am sorry to expose you and your church for what it is. I hope you cast off your pride and come back to the One True God.

 

[soren1]

Please excuse this appearance of boasting, but I am trying to get a point across.

If you attributed the morals of Momrons to grace, in the sense of supernatural girt, moving their souls, then it would not be boasting. But you believe that grace is an enabling power that enables men to take hold of eternal life after they have expended their best efforts. This means that the first cause of LDS moral living is seen within the power of the individual as such. This constitutes boasting.

Look at the data and see for yourself. If Mormonism wasn’t true then we as a people would not be bearing this good fruit and would be doing evil in the world. That is the bottom line. If the LDS Church was of Satan, then these results would be different – why would Satan have his children do such wonderful things? A house divided cannot stand, and therefore it would make no sense.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matt 7:21-23

All Satan need to win the souls of men, is to lure them into self-righteousness. The only standard that counts is is not, “Do you sin less than most Catholics?” but rather “Does your righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees?” But if you think morality can be measured by the numbers, then you are already thinking like a Pharisee.

Besides, the state of Utah leads the nation by far in pornography usage and domestic violence. I don’t hold that that disproves Mormonism, but it shows that your premise of superior righteousness is false, and so both assumptions of your argument fail.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Excellent point Soren.

And I think allied to that is another lure of Satan ~ the idea that humans can progress to becoming gods. This lie was first told in the Garden of Eden. It was a lie then, and it is still a lie.

 

[Returning_Home]

“My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive. They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. No offense, your passion has you pretty much set and there is nothing I will write or say to change your minds. No worries, I am the same. Those of us in these forums are on the fringe and that is our nature.”

Let me translate Mr. Eric Schuster’s two long posts.

What he’s saying is that he has no realistic answers to these very real problems and he thus falls back on his LDS programming: if someone brings up points that undermine Mormonism, ask the church why it’s right; they wouldn’t lie to you, of course. He then predictably went on the attack and then bore his dreary testiphony which amounts to nothing more than a thinly veiled temper tantrum on the way out the door.

He has no more ammunition and he knows it so he’s simply bowing out because the facts are too much for him to bear; he wants to keep his sense of community, his self concept of being more right than anyone else, and most of all, his precious, though ultimately impotent, priesthood.

This is how Mormon programming works when put in action: ignore the facts, revise any history that doesn’t conform to the LDS version of actual history, attack those you can’t refute, bear your testiphony, and stop reading things that aren’t faith promoting.

 

[SirThomasMore]

yep

 

[MelanieAnne]

Agreed.

Next time someone wants to promote a book or proselytize, perhaps we should ask the Moderators to close the thread.

 

[Returning_Home]

Agreed.

Next time someone wants to promote a book or proselytize, perhaps we should ask the Moderators to close the thread.

I think we do pretty well moderating ourselves. To ask that the thread be closed shows that we can’t behave ourselves and it also stoops to the level of those who get their feelings hurt and act out by keeping those of us who know the facts from expressing them. I, for one, won’t pander to those who don’t like the truth.

We parried all of his points and did so in a civil manner and I think we deserve a pat on the back for it.

 

[twopekinguys]

I think we do pretty well moderating ourselves. To ask that the thread be closed shows that we can’t behave ourselves and it also stoops to the level of those who get their feelings hurt and act out by keeping those of us who know the facts from expressing them. I, for one, won’t pander to those who don’t like the truth.

I agree with both of you actually.

I think the Catholics on this forum did an excellent job in defending the faith against someone who was obviously proseltyzing. I don’t think it is something he expected, so bravo to those who stepped up to the plate.

On the other hand, CAF isn’t a place for people to hawk merchandise, or indirectly sell their goods, which is something I think he was trying to do. So, in some cases, moderator intervention is appropriate. At least in my opinion.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I think we do pretty well moderating ourselves. To ask that the thread be closed shows that we can’t behave ourselves and it also stoops to the level of those who get their feelings hurt and act out by keeping those of us who know the facts from expressing them. I, for one, won’t pander to those who don’t like the truth.

I agree. Mostly. But remember ~ proselytizing is specifically contrary to Forum rules.

I think dialog is important and can serve a useful purpose. But the entire thrust of the book analyzed in various threads (“Catholic Roots Mormon Harvest”) is clearly devoted to proselytizing, and the subsequent actions of the author have clearly shown that once his book promotion was finished, and his proselytizing didn’t seem to be going well, he bailed. It is true that the author provided a graphic demonstration that he both did not understand the Catholic faith he left, which is quite typical of those who leave the Catholic faith, nor could he support his new-found Mormon faith, but that doesn’t change the fact that proselytizing is contrary to forum rules.

I submit that we can advance the truth without having to also permit the use of the forum as a vehicle for publicizing a book or allowing obvious efforts to proselytize.

 

[soren1]

My dear friends. Thank you for conversing with me in this forum. I had no intentions of being here as long as I did as I have never found such interactions to be productive. They serve mainly for people to prove they are right and to accuse others who do not share their belief to be wrong. It is the nature of forums and it is not likely to change into the foreseeable future. I can spend hours answering each of you, but I don’t believe it will make a bit of difference for me to do so. I find my time better spent in ministering to others one on one or writing more books to help others understand the gospel of Jesus Christ. No offense, your passion has you pretty much set and there is nothing I will write or say to change your minds. No worries, I am the same. Those of us in these forums are on the fringe and that is our nature.

A lot of what you say in this post has been criticized already, and I hate to beat a dead horse, and I can’t be sure you are still even reading this, but I have to stop for a moment here and point out just how cynical a statement this is. How on earth do you know that no one can change their mind over conversations at internet forums? Who do you think converts people, man or the Holy Spirit? If I thought the answer was “man” I might just walk out of conversations like this too, but because I think it is “the Holy Spirit,” I cannot believe that no one’s mind can change or that every discussion in this kind of forum must be fruitless.

Just so you know that my money goes where my mouth is, let me inform you of my own life. I was raised Catholic, but married into a Mormon family, my wife being a Catholic convert. Her family is now closer to me than most of my own, and I have spent years studying Mormon theology, and have written graduate papers dealing with a range of LDS topics. I have a bookshelf of Mormon titles to dwarf what you would find on most Mormon homes, and I spend, whenever possible, hours discussing matters online with Mormons and have done so regularly for nearly four years, mainly at mormonapologetics.org. I do most of my witnessing in Mormon strongholds, where I can expect to be opposed, not among Catholics, where I will find approval. I find this all to be very emotionally strenuous; because I think the stakes are very high, and that Mormonism can save no one, I have occasionally fallen into depression because of the magnitude of what that entails. Yet in all the time that I have done this, I do not know if I have ever changed anyone’s mind about anything. The sheer lack of visible fruits is not, however, a reason for me to alter my resolve. There are people around the world and in heaven who pray daily for the conversion of sinners. Their prayers will be heard, and I cannot assume that people will be hard-hearted when I show them the truth, even when I invariably find them to be. And God is glorified even when no listens. This justifies continuing any conversation at all, because I do not know who is reading or listening, or when I may be talking to saint. If you do not share that conviction, why do apologetics at all?

 

[RebeccaJ]

soren, you never know where a seed is planted. I know more than one convert from Mormonism who’s exposure to Catholicism, in some form, while on their LDS mission was the seed for their eventual conversion. Some, it took many years if not decades, to cross the Tiber.

 

[Returning_Home]

I agree. Mostly. But remember ~ proselytizing is specifically contrary to Forum rules.

I think dialog is important and can serve a useful purpose. But the entire thrust of the book analyzed in various threads (“Catholic Roots Mormon Harvest”) is clearly devoted to proselytizing, and the subsequent actions of the author have clearly shown that once his book promotion was finished, and his proselytizing didn’t seem to be going well, he bailed. It is true that the author provided a graphic demonstration that he both did not understand the Catholic faith he left, which is quite typical of those who leave the Catholic faith, nor could he support his new-found Mormon faith, but that doesn’t change the fact that proselytizing is contrary to forum rules.

I submit that we can advance the truth without having to also permit the use of the forum as a vehicle for publicizing a book or allowing obvious efforts to proselytize.

I guess that’s an argument that can go either way. I didn’t see any book promotion, though, aside from the already-discredited BOM.

And Mormons will always bail eventually because they know when they’ve been defeated by the facts. I don’t do it out of spite, but rather in an attempt to plant the seed of real, true Christianity. Once that’s done, it’s all up to God to do what He will.

In all, it’s debatable as to whether he was expressing an opinion or proselytizing.

It doesn’t matter to me either way, however, because I’m cult proof.