Mormons become God's after death....

  • Thread starter Thread starter Zundrah
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You know i alway’s thought he was shot by the Masons because he was ca:eek:ught with one of their wifes?
Y’know, Nancy, that you think so doesn’t surprise me one bit. How about doing a little research before you present yourself as an expert?

I think that your granddaughter might appreciate that.

Oh…by the way, As far as I am aware Catholics also teach the principle of tithing. Just so you know.
 
Nancy Dalrymple,
I like John 3:16. I noticed your recent post mentioned you believe that those who are saved become “glorified”. Perhaps you could explain further what that means to you?

I noticed in reading about you that you have evidently had a life of service to many people. Thank you for that service. Isn’t it great that Christ’s atonement heals both hearts (in this life and the next, as hearts are drawn toward Him in sincerity and faith) and bodies (some in this life, all in the next).
 
I don’t know if anybody has that as “official doctrine,” Thurifer…but I can attest that many Christians have said that they personally believe this to be true.

…in fact, some of them have said this quite forcefully. 😉
The Eucharistic Sacrifice

I’m willing to do something I’ve been thinking of for a long time: review in brief the evidence for the Real Presence/Transubstantiation of Christ in the Mass from both Scripture and earliest Fathers of the Church. This effort will be revised as I continue to improve it. I shall concentrate only on the evidence from the first and second centuries AD.
I. First, I’ll set the “stage” by explaining how Holy Church defines the Real Presence of Christ in the sacrifice of the Mass by quoting a bit from the CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

1374 The mode of Christ’s presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as “the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend” [199 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 73, 3c]. In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist “the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, THE WHOLE CHRIST IS TRULY, REALLY, AND SUBSTANTIALLY contained” [200 Council of Trent (1551): DS 1651]. “This presence is called “real”–by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be “real” too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a SUBSTANTIAL presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present” [201 Paul VI, MYSTERIUM FIDEI 39].

II. Next, I’ll quote the relevant texts from the Bible on why the Real Presence/Transubstantiation is true.

Malachi 1.11

“For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.” [NAB]

The NAB comments: “1,10f: The imperfect sacrifices offered without sincerity by the people of Judah are displeasing to the Lord. He will rather be pleased with the offerings of the Gentile nations throughout the world (‘from the rising of the sun even to its setting’), which anticipate the ‘pure offering’ to be sacrificed in messianic times, the universal sacrifice of the Mass, as we are told by the Council of Trent.”

Matthew 26.26-30

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.” Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Mark 14.22-26

While they were eating, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will shed for many. Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Luke 22.14-22

When the hour came, he took his place at table with the apostles. He said to them, I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for, I tell you, I shall not eat it [again] until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves; for I tell you [that] from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will shed for you.”

The next extract, from John 6, is from the “Bread of life” discourse.

The basic position of most Protestants about the Eucharist is that Our Lord did not mean his words to be taken literally. But, if Christ only meant what He said in a metaphorical sense, why didn’t He make it unchallengeably clear that His words should not be understood literally?

John 6.41-59

The Jews murmured about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven,” and they said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph? Do we not know his father and mother? Then how can he say, ’ I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Stop murmuring among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. It is written in the prophets; ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.” These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
 
Nancy Dalrymple,
I like John 3:16. I noticed your recent post mentioned you believe that those who are saved become “glorified”. Perhaps you could explain further what that means to you?

I noticed in reading about you that you have evidently had a life of service to many people. Thank you for that service. Isn’t it great that Christ’s atonement heals both hearts (in this life and the next, as hearts are drawn toward Him in sincerity and faith) and bodies (some in this life, all in the next).
The Catechism Of The Catholic Church

Part Three: Life In Christ � Section One: Man�s Vocation: Life In The Spirit � Chapter Three: God�s Salvation: Law And Grace � Article 2 - Grace And Justification

I. Justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism: [Rom 3.22; cf. 6:3-4]

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. [Rom 6.8-11]

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ�s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: [Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15.1-4]

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature… For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized. [St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1, 24: PG 26, 585 & 588]

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus� proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” [Mt 4.17] Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. [Council of Trent (1547): Densinger 1528]

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God�s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God�s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529]

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God�s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. [Rom 3.21-26]

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God�s grace and man�s freedom. On man�s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man�s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God�s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God�s sight. [Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525]

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God�s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because “heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect � will not pass away.” [St. Augustine, In Jo. Ev. 72, 3: PL 35. 1823] He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the “inner man,” [Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16] justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification… But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. [Rom 6:19,22]
 
Parker:

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life. [Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4]

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God�s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature. [Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9]

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification: [Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39]

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. [2 Cor 5:17-18]

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God�s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God�s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:” [St. Augustine, De gratia st libero arbitrio, 17: PL 44, 901]

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing. [St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31: PL 44, 264]

2002 God�s free initiative demands man�s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of “eternal life” respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed “very good” since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life. [St. Augustine, Conf. 13, 36, 51: PL 32, 868; cf. Gen 1:31]

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.”[53] Whatever their character�sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues�charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church. [Cf. 1 Cor 12] …

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534] However, according to the Lord�s words�"Thus you will know them by their fruits" [Mt 7:20]�reflection on God�s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: “Asked if she knew that she was in God�s grace, she replied: �If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.�” [Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc]
 
Parker
III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts. [Roman Missal, Prefatio I de Sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the “Doctor of grace,” St. Augustine, En. In Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322]

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man�s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man�s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God�s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of eternal life.” [Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548] “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due… Our merits are God�s gifts.” [St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38,1367]

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God�s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth�s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone… In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. [St. Therese of Lisieux, “Act of Offering” in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277]

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” [Rom 8:28-30]

2013 “All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity.” [Lumen Gentium, 40, 2.] All are called to holiness: “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” [Mt 5:48]

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ�s gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints. [Lumen Gentium, 40, 2.]

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - “the holy mysteries” - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle. [Cf. 2 Tim 4] Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows. [St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. In Cant. 8: PG 44, 941C]

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576] Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the “blessed hope” of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the “holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” [Rev 21.2]
 
Y’know, Nancy, that you think so doesn’t surprise me one bit. How about doing a little research before you present yourself as an expert?

I think that your granddaughter might appreciate that.

Oh…by the way, As far as I am aware Catholics also teach the principle of tithing. Just so you know.
Yes but they don’t take it out of your pay chech even if you are not working so much:rolleyes:
 
Nancy Dalrymple,
I like John 3:16. I noticed your recent post mentioned you believe that those who are saved become “glorified”. Perhaps you could explain further what that means to you?

I noticed in reading about you that you have evidently had a life of service to many people. Thank you for that service. Isn’t it great that Christ’s atonement heals both hearts (in this life and the next, as hearts are drawn toward Him in sincerity and faith) and bodies (some in this life, all in the next).
Yes, it is wonderful, for he said “Who ever looses their life on earth will find it in heaven, and who ever seeks it will loose it” I have held many a hand before it left the earth and i have had people in so much pain ask me to pray that they would go home asap. I went home many a night and felt very empty, only because i know what i was to expect some day, as David did also. I felt a connection for these people, and i prayed alot in work. Empathy, that’s what we all need more of.
 
I don’t know if anybody has that as “official doctrine,” Thurifer…but I can attest that many Christians have said that they personally believe this to be true.

…in fact, some of them have said this quite forcefully. 😉
I’ve definitely noticed this as well, the emphasis of God being spirit, which is true, but I think it also comes to whether when we say “God”, are we talking about the Trinity/Godhead, or the Father alone. But I wouldn’t be surprised if certain Christians believed that Jesus no longer has His glorified body. I’m sure that Elder Callister didn’t just make it up, and I’ve seen other Mormons on other forums mention this as well. On the other hand, I don’t think that it’s a prevalent view, and that the mainstream traditional Christian denoms believe that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, bodily ascended ot Heaven, and He still has and will always have His glorified body, as we will. I’d be curious to hear what those Christians that believe otherwise use as reasoning for Jesus no longer having His glorified body.

off to google!
 
Also a reason that some speculate the Masons in the Mob refused to save Joseph at Carthage. He had revealed those Masonic rituals and introduced them into his church. When he ran to the windo of the jail arms over his head and shouted “Oh Lord my God is there no help for the widows son?” He attempted to seek protection throught the Masons present in the Mob, however many believe the Masons had participated due to the reason he had revealed their(Masons)oaths and hand clasps along with the veil ceremony to the LDS chruch.

I find it funny that very soon after his admission into the Mason’s he began introducing “Temple” ceremonies no doubt brought to him via “Divine” revelation.
I don’t know who Joseph at Cartage is. Joseph Smith?
 
So Jesus Christ went to Hades after His death… but did he have a spirit body there? He obviously didn’t have his physical body at the time. Does Christ’s spirit body have shape like ours does? Or is he just a floating bunch of essense or substance?
I feel comfortable saying that i do not know the answers to these questions. Perhaps someone else can speak to these questions, but I personally do not know, and I don’t want to give you a wrong impression.
Why are Cathlic doctrines of God so similar to the Greeks and Stoics? Why do the Catholics us the Greek LOGOS when referring to Christ?
I really don’t see a lot of similarities between the Greeks, Stoics and Catholic theology on God. What is similar is based on our belief that there are certain truths found in practically every religion and philosophy (note that that doesn’t mean that all religions are true, but that they have elements of the truth, starting with things as basic and fundamental as a belief in the Divine). I see similarities between Christianity in general and various older Pagan religions as well. I don’t think that the Catholic concept of God is similar at all to the Greeks (polytheistic, male/female counterparts, etc.), but, we may use words and understandings that are similar, as is the case with many other religions in relation to Christianity.

From my understanding, “Logos” is the word used in the Greek manuscripts of the Bible for “Word” (as we know, the Word is Jesus Christ), someone correct me if I’m wrong. I’m not too familiar with this however, so if someone else is, they should be able to fill you in.
 
Yes, it is wonderful, for he said “Who ever looses their life on earth will find it in heaven, and who ever seeks it will loose it” I have held many a hand before it left the earth and i have had people in so much pain ask me to pray that they would go home asap. I went home many a night and felt very empty, only because i know what i was to expect some day, as David did also. I felt a connection for these people, and i prayed alot in work. Empathy, that’s what we all need more of.
Nancy,
Thanks for sharing this. As far as the other posts, I actually meant the word “glorified” in your own words, what it means–not what others have tried to describe and talked around the subject so much that one doesn’t know whether one is coming or going. Something simple, from your own heart–your own personal version (not memorized) even heartfelt. Like this particular post. Something from your heart, about being glorified.
 
Nancy,
Thanks for sharing this. As far as the other posts, I actually meant the word “glorified” in your own words, what it means–not what others have tried to describe and talked around the subject so much that one doesn’t know whether one is coming or going. Something simple, from your own heart–your own personal version (not memorized) even heartfelt. Like this particular post. Something from your heart, about being glorified.
Being like him , resembling him in my actions, works, WWJD attitude.Having eternal life being saved, by being his through his sacrifice on the cross and believing on him, confessing my sins and asking for forgivness, being made whole! Glorified.
 
Being like him , resembling him in my actions, works, WWJD attitude.Having eternal life being saved, by being his through his sacrifice on the cross and believing on him, confessing my sins and asking for forgivness, being made whole! Glorified.
Nancy,
I assume you mean being “like Christ”. I agree. I really do. That is what His grace can do for all of humankind who choose to follow Him with full intent: to be glorified, like Christ.
 
Nancy,
I assume you mean being “like Christ”. I agree. I really do. That is what His grace can do for all of humankind who choose to follow Him with full intent: to be glorified, like Christ.
John 3:16:)
 
Tertullian

“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).
ThuriferAcolyte,

I realize you don’t think the above has internal inconsistency, but I think it does. How can “three coherent persons” be “inseparable from each other” if those words mean what they mean in English usage? To be coherent would be to be individually identifiable. To be individually identifiable would be to be “separable” in terms of their identity. They can be one in purpose, one in “substance” if substance means “the qualities that make God, God”, but they would be individually identifiable. Plus, the use of the terms “mystery of the oikonomia” sets up a mystery of what one is supposed to believe. That word is not from the Bible or anything close to the Bible. I think it is an intellectually dishonest word.
 
The Definition of Economy
Bible Translations
Bible translators have employed a variety of English words in their attempts to translate the term oikonomia. In some instances, such as 1 Timothy 1:4 and Ephesians 1:10 and 3:9, oikonomia denotes God’s overall plan (see Wuest’s Word Studies); in such cases it is more precisely rendered economy or dispensation. Other verses, such as 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 3:2, and Colossians 1:25, refer not to God’s economy in a general sense, but to man’s participation and service in God’s economy. In such cases, oikonomia is more accurately described as stewardship. The following tables compare variant English translations of the word oikonomia in each of the six verses mentioned above.

Key: NIV New International Version JER The Jerusalem Bible
RSV Revised Standard Version NASB New American Standard Bible
KJV King James Version NAB New American Bible
NKJV New King James Version AMP Amplified Bible
DBY Darby Version WST Wuest’s Expanded Translation
YLT Young’s Literal Translation RCV Recovery Version

oikonomia: economy
Translation 1 Timothy 1:4 Ephesians 1:10 Ephesians 3:9
NIV work put into effect administration
RSV training plan plan
KJV edifying* dispensation fellowship
NKJV edification* dispensation fellowship
DBY dispensation administration administration
YLT building up dispensation fellowship
NASB Ephesians 1:10
with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth. In Him
JER design to act upon to be dispensed
NASB administration administration
 
**So…I trust that the mormons who read this realize that they will never become God-like or a God (LOL).

I hope the mormons who read this somehow READ and realize that they are not “Christian”. And I hope that’s not a big surprise to them.

They realize this, I trust. 🤷

**There is one God. **
God was never a mortal man on planet Kolob.
Joe Smith was never a prophet; he was a third-rate con man and BS’er.
Joe liked his Beer (good decision) and took out a liquor license for Beer to be sold in his home. Joe also liked wine, beer and other dude’s wives.
Obviously he was never a prophet, but we have to wonder what his brainwashed seer-stone minions see in him?

**P.T. Barnum (one of my heroes) said a “Sucker is born every minute”. **

So very true. **

===========================
The mormon Truth Site is here for those that want it.
(Don’t be left out; Don’t let your ex-mormon friends laugh at you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top