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PaulDupre
Guest
Do you really deny that your church leaders taught, until very recently, that the Mormon heavenly father had sex with Mary?
Heck, the missionaries taught it to me when I was an investigator and it was taught often in Sunday school classes all through the 70s and 80s, citing the same quotes from LDS prophets and apostles that I have cited on these fora.
Perhaps it is time to post those quotes again.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
HI, It was last year that a young man from Arizona came with the other and that is were they were not in agreement with each other, i think they have changed alot and if dinana, was a Mormon for years she of all people should know where we are comming from? you woud think? The reason they go from door to door is to find out what you think ,and to get information from the other beliefs, so they can be in zync with every one else. If they did not they would be as i pointed out just another protestant church, and to me that’s just what they are.You will find your stones in Revelations 3 not the ones Joseph Smith had either. you are Loved! Love of Christ NancyDo you really deny that your church leaders taught, until very recently, that the Mormon heavenly father had sex with Mary?
Heck, the missionaries taught it to me when I was an investigator and it was taught often in Sunday school classes all through the 70s and 80s, citing the same quotes from LDS prophets and apostles that I have cited on these fora.
Perhaps it is time to post those quotes again.
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dianaiad
Guest
You are quite right, Nancy. You have been fed lies. Your problem seems to be determining which are lies and which are not.I’m sorry , i was so tired of being fed lies,may be snack a doodle would be better??
You claim that we believe the following:
God had sex with Mary.
…we do not believe that.
God had sex with Eve.
…we not only do not believe that, I’ve never HEARD of that one before you came up with it, and I thought I"d heard 'em all.
That it is church policy to baptise non-relatives without family permission.
…and you make this claim in the very post in which you quote a statement FROM the church saying that it not only is not, but that doing so is a very serious problem.
That the church somehow forcibly takes 10% of everybody’s paycheck automatically.
…It wouldn’t do that even if the members asked them to. (If they offered that service, I for one would take advantage of it. I do all my bills online and with automatic bank payments if I can possibly work that out, so I don’t have to deal with the post office.)
You have come up with a bunch of other untruths about our beliefs, and when you are corrected, you come back with 'you do TOO believe this!" and go quote some anti-Mormon hate filled site that wouldn’t tell the truth about our beliefs if the truth would actually serve their purposes better than the lie does.
So, if you are so tired of being fed the lies, why are you so gleefully eating them–and then regurgitating them again to the rest of us?
…and why haven’t you commented on the items that you have claimed–and that I refuted? Do we get an apology from you for claiming that we believe that God had sex with Eve? OR Mary?
…or any of the other falsehoods you have claimed about us?
Don’t worry, I’m not doing any breath holding.
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dianaiad
Guest
Nancy, that is a hypocritical thing to say. If you did ‘love’ us, you would disagree with what is real, not some made up paranoid fantasy of what our beliefs are.
I WAS a missionary. I know very well what we do when we go door to door, and believe me-it isn’t about 'find[ing] out what you think, and to get information from the other beliefs, so [we] can be in zync (sic) with everyone else."
Shoot, if we did that, nobody would have a problem with us because we would believe the same things you do, wouldn’t we? We’d be accepted as Christians’ by the Catholics and everybody else, too, because of course we’d be Trinitarians or Modalists or whatever it is you believe. No problem, then. In fact, you have it backwards, if we DID that we would be 'just another Protestant church."
But we don’t do that. We go door to door teaching what WE believe. We figure that you already know what you believe. You don’t need us to tell you that.
Nancy, I’ve been a Mormon for 60 years. I was a missionary. I’ve been a teacher. I’m the great grandauther of six polygamist families. All of them knew Joseph Smith or Brigham Young personally, and wrote down their experiences in journals which I have. I know the good and the bad about polygamy. I understand the trials my ancestors faced. I’ve faced plenty of my own…stuff that I can almost guarantee YOU have not faced.
I’ve been “defending the faith” on various forums for many years. I KNOW what our beliefs are. Until you showed up with the God/sex/Eve thing, I thought I’d seen all the stupid attacks there were. I will have to admit that you topped 'em all with that one. (OK, maybe the serious “where are your horns?” from the Baptist high school aquiantance of mine is right up there with it.)
All I am asking from you, Nancy, is to get a clue. It IS possible to disagree with the real Mormonism. Several people in here manage to do that just fine.
Why don’t you, since you don’t seem to think that any Mormon knows what Mormons believe, ask one of them? ThuriferAcolyte, for instance?
He is mostly accurate about our beliefs.
And you?
Are not. In fact, I will use you as an expert on Mormonism. If you say we believe something, then it’s a pretty sure bet that we don’t.
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dianaiad
Guest
You bet I do. I have NEVER been taught that, and I’m a 60 year old Utah Mormon type.
Every quote you come up with, IN CONTEXT, is emphasizing that God the Father is the Father of Christ, and that the Holy Ghost is not. In other words, it is a Trinitarian issue, not a sex issue. Every one of those quotes is about God being the physical, or in modern terms, genetic, Father of the mortal Christ as He is the Spiritual Father of the Christ. Jesus is the 'Only Begotten Son" of the Father.
We do indeed believe that in a very physical way, He is Christ’s father in a way that He is not the father of any of the rest of us…but there is NO quote that says “God had sexual relations with Mary.” None. Zip. Nada.
…and since WE mere mortals can pull this same thing of–that is, having a woman bear the child of a man she hasn’t had sex with, why do YOU insist that this is the only way GOD can do it? Can we mere humans REALLY do something that God cannot?
As I have mentioned before, of all the Christians on the planet, Mormons are the only ones who MUST believe that Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth. After all, there is some confusion as to the biblical word that is translated as 'virgin." However the Book of Mormon, which is supposed to have been translated directly into English through divine aid, uses the word ‘virgin’ in the English sense of the word. That is; “woman who has never had sexual relations with a man.”
Therefore it must be that Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth. Period. No matter how many quotes you can grab out of context.
Oh, do. But WHEN you do, please include the context in which they are found. You will find that they are then giving a very different message.Heck, the missionaries taught it to me when I was an investigator and it was taught often in Sunday school classes all through the 70s and 80s, citing the same quotes from LDS prophets and apostles that I have cited on these fora.
Perhaps it is time to post those quotes again.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Dianaiad, i hope to tell you that i made friends with these boys and they told me all that i am telling you and i know their names which you are not suposto know I even have pictures of them. i would not make up anything for it would do me no benifit. I have a faith and that;s that. i was telling you what someof your own people believe and the older books of Mormon faith have deleted alot in fact the one boy who came here told me his grand father has a book from the 70’s or 80’s before they did alot of deleting Look i know you guy’s are trying to do better and you believe in Jesus but you believe in him wrong and i know you are sincere when you pray but you pray to 3 Gods and view alot of things that make your beliefs hurt God and his Godhead. I was very upset to have these young men come into my home and blaspheme God the way they did and aparently had no idea they did because of the way you are brain washed to believe. you read more about Alma, and Halaman, Nephi( Which comes from masons)Ether,D&C, a book on Abraham i have never herd of, not much bible there .Alot of Joseph Smith inerpertations, about his bible. Please, I am telling you the truth, there are alot of Mormons who wish the old laws would come back and they could have a kingdom of wives in the next life, where their is no marriage taken according to our book. In Truth Nancy
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Proof!
How can Mormons claim they believe in the virgin birth if God had sex with Mary?
They change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase “virgin birth” because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said:
“For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being” (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).
In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin.
By “Virgin birth”, Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!
How can Mormons claim they believe in the virgin birth if God had sex with Mary?
They change the definition of the word virgin. Mormons feel that they can still use the phrase “virgin birth” because God was an IMMORTAL being who had sex with Mary, not a mere mortal man. And this is exactly what Bruce McConkie, (top LSD theologian, and one of the Mormon 12 Apostles, died in 1985) said:
“For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being” (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466).
In other words, if Joseph had sex with Mary she would not have been a virgin, but since God had sex with Mary, she remains a virgin.
By “Virgin birth”, Mormons mean that no mortal human had sex with Mary, but since God had sex with Mary, and He is immortal, she remains a virgin!
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
Proof!
If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
C. Mary And God Were Married
The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
D. Joseph was Her Second Husband
Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:268)
E. The Bible Is Wrong
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet of the Mormon Church: “They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)
F. God Is A Man
“Christ was begotten of God. He was NOT born without the aid of man and that man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)
G. An Act Of The Flesh
The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood- was begotten of his Father, as we are of our fathers. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 8:115)
In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of discourses, 8:211)
H. Not Of The Holy Ghost
''When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
‘What a learned idea’ Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
'Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, hat Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject when I replied to this idea- “If the son was begotten y the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost o them, lest he should beget children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”…But what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know but this subject? Comparatively Nothing." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
I. Bruce R. McConkie, deceased member of the 12 Apostles (d.1985) and leading LDS theologian, writes in Mormon Doctrine:
SON OF GOD: God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.—page 742
SON OF MAN: Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the eternal God!) is a Holy Man. “In the language of Adam, Man of Holiness” is the name of God. Page 742
SON OF MARY: …but the Holy ghost is not the Father of Christ and when the Child was born, he was "the Son of the eternal Father. —page 743
ONLY BEGOTTEN SON: These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. —page 546
If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
C. Mary And God Were Married
The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
D. Joseph was Her Second Husband
Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in the mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:268)
E. The Bible Is Wrong
Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet of the Mormon Church: “They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such Thing! Neither does the Bible!” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)
F. God Is A Man
“Christ was begotten of God. He was NOT born without the aid of man and that man was God!” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18)
G. An Act Of The Flesh
The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood- was begotten of his Father, as we are of our fathers. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 8:115)
In relation to the way in which I look upon the works of God and his creatures, I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of discourses, 8:211)
H. Not Of The Holy Ghost
''When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
‘What a learned idea’ Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
'Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, hat Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. will repeat a little anecdote. I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject when I replied to this idea- “If the son was begotten y the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost o them, lest he should beget children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”…But what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know but this subject? Comparatively Nothing." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
I. Bruce R. McConkie, deceased member of the 12 Apostles (d.1985) and leading LDS theologian, writes in Mormon Doctrine:
SON OF GOD: God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says.—page 742
SON OF MAN: Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the eternal God!) is a Holy Man. “In the language of Adam, Man of Holiness” is the name of God. Page 742
SON OF MARY: …but the Holy ghost is not the Father of Christ and when the Child was born, he was "the Son of the eternal Father. —page 743
ONLY BEGOTTEN SON: These name-titles all signify that our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only, begotten means begotten, and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in He same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers. —page 546
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
In answer to this thread:
Life after Death
Mormons believe that this life is only one part of an eternal existence. Life will continue but it is not known by anyone exactly what that life will be like. However the purpose of this life is to determine our station in the next. Mormons believe there are degrees of glory rewarded after the Judgment, according to the faith and obedience of the person during their life (John 14:2; 1 Corinthians 15:40-41). The glories of heaven differ like the glory of the sun differs from the moon, and the moon from the stars. Everyone will receive some degree of glory, but only the faithful will receive the highest glory with the possibility to become like God. Mormons also believe that all people who ever lived will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and thus inherit the greatest kingdom of God. After death all go to a spirit world where they associate with others who have lived on earth. Here, believers of Christ preach the gospel to those who did not receive it in life, and those that accept it can be saved by having the ordinances of salvation performed for them by proxy on earth. This is the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead, which is performed in Mormon temples.
Life after Death
Mormons believe that this life is only one part of an eternal existence. Life will continue but it is not known by anyone exactly what that life will be like. However the purpose of this life is to determine our station in the next. Mormons believe there are degrees of glory rewarded after the Judgment, according to the faith and obedience of the person during their life (John 14:2; 1 Corinthians 15:40-41). The glories of heaven differ like the glory of the sun differs from the moon, and the moon from the stars. Everyone will receive some degree of glory, but only the faithful will receive the highest glory with the possibility to become like God. Mormons also believe that all people who ever lived will have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and thus inherit the greatest kingdom of God. After death all go to a spirit world where they associate with others who have lived on earth. Here, believers of Christ preach the gospel to those who did not receive it in life, and those that accept it can be saved by having the ordinances of salvation performed for them by proxy on earth. This is the Mormon practice of baptism for the dead, which is performed in Mormon temples.
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dianaiad
Guest
You mean, you read the little name tags on their shirts that say 'Elder so and so?" I had one myself. It read 'Sister Clay, England Southwest Mission." I still have it in a scrapbook in a cedar chest. True, I changed my name about six months after I got home, but I don’t think even you would think that the method or reason was that unusual. Women still do that when they marry, mostly. At least, American women do. Mostly.
No, I don’t think you are making it up. I think you are swallowing the stuff someone else has made up, and you like the taste of the made up stuff better than the real deal.
No, Nancy, you were not. You are doing copy/paste stuff from anti-Mormon websites and publications, and calling the real Mormons who actually believe their religion liars. If I started copying and pasting stuff from CARM, Jack Chick and other anti-Catholic sites to “prove” that Catholics are cannibals and worship statues, would you suddenly leave your faith and figure that everything you have been taught all your life is false? Or would you trust in your own beliefs and teachings, because (gasp) you know what they are better than some hateful anti-Catholic does?
…do I really have to ask you that question?
Can you understand, then, why I react so badly to the stuff you post and are claiming about my beliefs? It’s exactly the same thing.
Nancy, you are NOT telling the truth about our beliefs. Whether you think you are or not, you aren’t.
I should know. I am, after all, the one believing in Mormonism. I know my beliefs. I would never try to tell you what YOU ‘really’ believed. I would never take the word of any ex-Catholic as to your beliefs. I would never go to the 'Catholic Research Ministry" or any similar site to find out what your beliefs are.
If I want to know what Catholics believe, I ask a Catholic…and then I believe him or her.
So.
Why don’t you return the favor?
And why, if I tell you that we do NOT, for instance, believe that God had sex with Mary, are you DISAPPOINTED? Why aren’t you relieved that you were incorrect about that? Why isn’t your reaction 'whew…!" instead of “you do TOO???”
Is it that you are so in love with the National Inquirer version of things that you can’t handle truth when you see it?
It doesn’t mean, you realize, that you must leave your own faith and join ours, or that you have to agree with us. It simply means that you disagree with what the reality of Mormonism is, not some straw version.
…and what the hell is wrong with being a Mason, anyway? My grandfather (the only atheist in the bunch) was a Mason. My grandmother was president of the local Eastern Star.
In fact, the more @#$!% I hear about the Masons from people who are so off the wall wrong about US, the more I’m tempted to go find the nearest lodge and find out if they will let a Mormon woman in.
Sheesh.
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nancy_dalrymple
Guest
++ Listen have a nice night, and stay out of the sun i herd you people haven’t had any rain in a while. Take care wear a hat, and you are Loved. I don’t hate you it’s not your fault you were bought up to believe no differnt. Good Night! You are Loved!You mean, you read the little name tags on their shirts that say 'Elder so and so?" I had one myself. It read 'Sister Clay, England Southwest Mission." I still have it in a scrapbook in a cedar chest. True, I changed my name about six months after I got home, but I don’t think even you would think that the method or reason was that unusual. Women still do that when they marry, mostly. At least, American women do. Mostly.
No, Nancy, you were not. You are doing copy/paste stuff from anti-Mormon websites and publications, and calling the real Mormons who actually believe their religion liars. If I started copying and pasting stuff from CARM, Jack Chick and other anti-Catholic sites to “prove” that Catholics are cannibals and worship statues, would you suddenly leave your faith and figure that everything you have been taught all your life is false? Or would you trust in your own beliefs and teachings, because (gasp) you know what they are better than some hateful anti-Catholic does?Code:+ NO they are not to tell anyone their first name and they did, because we were friends, and i will never let that secret of their names be told. No, I don't think you are making it up. I think you are swallowing the stuff someone else has made up, and you like the taste of the made up stuff better than the real deal. + I thought these nice people were thereal thing, and their elder couple that came here to sup also. We never discussed erligion after a while because they knew i ws against what they taught but i liked them, and they liked me.
…do I really have to ask you that question?
Can you understand, then, why I react so badly to the stuff you post and are claiming about my beliefs? It’s exactly the same thing.
Nancy, you are NOT telling the truth about our beliefs. Whether you think you are or not, you aren’t.Code:+ All those thing'swere discussed with me and my husband and we would not make it up!
I should know. I am, after all, the one believing in Mormonism. I know my beliefs. I would never try to tell you what YOU ‘really’ believed. I would never take the word of any ex-Catholic as to your beliefs. I would never go to the 'Catholic Research Ministry" or any similar site to find out what your beliefs are.Code:+ You might have changed since last June, but i don't think so.
If I want to know what Catholics believe, I ask a Catholic…and then I believe him or her.Code:+ May be you should so you can change the way you think!
So.
Why don’t you return the favor?
And why, if I tell you that we do NOT, for instance, believe that God had sex with Mary, are you DISAPPOINTED? Why aren’t you relieved that you were incorrect about that? Why isn’t your reaction 'whew…!" instead of “you do TOO???”Code:+ Because i know better then to just take your word, I know better.
Is it that you are so in love with the National Inquirer version of things that you can’t handle truth when you see it?
It doesn’t mean, you realize, that you must leave your own faith and join ours, or that you have to agree with us. It simply means that you disagree with what the reality of Mormonism is, not some straw version.
…and what the hell is wrong with being a Mason, anyway? My grandfather (the only atheist in the bunch) was a Mason. My grandmother was president of the local Eastern Star.Code:+ Look lady i know what you are trying to do, and i will not agree with you about your beliefs they are out of line with scripture.
In fact, the more @#$!% I hear about the Masons from people who are so off the wall wrong about US, the more I’m tempted to go find the nearest lodge and find out if they will let a Mormon woman in.Code:+ Need i copy and paste every thing for you?
Sheesh.
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dianaiad
Guest
BINGO!!!
We do not believe that God had sex with Mary. See? Simple.
(sigh)
Nancy. I do not believe that God had sex with Mary.
I have never been taught that God had sex with Mary.
No quote I have ever seen, taken in context (or even taken out of context) claims that God had sex with Mary.
I’m the Mormon.
I’m a TBM (true believing Mormon.)
I’m not in any trouble with the powers that be for claiming false beliefs.
The only people who claim that Mormons believe that God had sex with Mary are people who hate us.
Clear enough for you?
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PaulDupre
Guest
People who hate you? Like Mormon missionaries, Mormons on this forum (BYU Boy for instance), Gospel Doctrine teachers, bishops, stake presidents, apostles, people like that?
They all believe that heavenly father had sex with Mary, that he took her as a wife (temporarily, just long enough to do the deed). My Elder’s Quorum president used to say that Mary was “God’s brood mare”. This idea is pervasive throughout Mormonism. I don’t believe you when you say you were never taught that. I’m absolutely sure you’ve heard it discussed, unless you’ve lived in a cave alone your whole life.
Of course the GAs would never have used the word “sex”, especially in the 19th century. It was not a word used in public. But they were very plain about the meaning,
These quotes are not about the WHO, they are about the HOW. A non-sexual conception is not “the normal and natural course of events”. Come on Diana, a little bit of critical thinking is in order here.
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dianaiad
Guest
…and we do indeed believe that God is the physical Father of the Mortal Christ…His Only Begotten Son. We just don’t think He had sex to accomplish that aim, and we know this because Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth. The Bible says so. The Book of Mormon says so. So there.
The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term lawful Wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully. (Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
D. Joseph was Her Second Husband
Still no mention of sexual intercourse there…
About what?
Because neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon teach that the Holy Ghost was the Father of Christ? They don’t, y’know.
which is rather the point of most of these quotes. The Holy Ghost is NOT the Father of Christ. God is.
Well, yeah. How else could Christ BE 'the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD," unless he WAS 'begotten?" Of course, only those who hate us, like you, insist that God cannot accomplish this without having sex with Mary. Never mind that several virgins have given birth within the last few decades; heavens, we mere mortals can do something that God cannot? Wow.
Yep. That’s what 'ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD" MEANS. Of course, God couldn’t possibly manage that without having sex with Mary, right? (looking…) Y’know, I really don’t see the words “God had sexual intercourse with Mary” there.
Do you?
that is quite true. We do not believe that the Holy Ghost is the Father of Christ. We believe God is, and that just as your father is your father physically, and my cousin is the father of his son…
Oh. By the way…his son was concieved through artificial insemination, not through sexual intercourse. That doesn’t make my cousin any less his father, though.
But of course, God couldn’t possibly arrange that a virgin should give birth to His Son without having sex with her, could He? Never mind that WE mere mortals arrange stuff like that all the time now…
'cont on next post.
D
dianaiad
Guest
cont. from previous post…
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The only thing that may not have been ‘natural’ was the method God used to provide His half of the DNA (or whatever you want to term it.) We know that God did not have sex with Mary BECAUSE both the bible and the Book of Mormon stated that Mary was a virgin. Seems simple enough to me. I don’t get the horrified gaspies at the idea, y’know. It’s just that, well…if she was a virgin, she didn’t have sex with anybody. Or Anybody.
Now why aren’t you saying ‘well, that’s good.’ WHY are you insisting that I believe something that I am ADAMANTLY TELLING YOU THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE???
But He didn’t do it by having sex with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both say that Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth.
I suppose that it would be too optimistic to ask you if you actually GET it, now?
Nope, He was not. He is not the son of the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of God. It’s a trinitarian issue, not a sex issue.
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Again. God is the Father of Jesus. The Holy Ghost is not.
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Again. God is the Father of Jesus. The Holy Ghost is not.
Yep. Christ is the Only Begotten Son of the Father. If you want to call that DNA, be my guest. No other person on the earth can claim God the Father as His physical father…but Christ can, and it is literal, and personal, and real, or figurative. He was begotten, concieved and born in the normal and natural course of events. Now, Nancy…I have had five children. I can affirm to you that while Jim’s contribution to their conception was delivered through sex, after that he didn’t have a whole lot to do with things. I was pregnant by myself, I was morning sick by myself, I got stretch marks by myself, and I went through labor by myself. As hard as I tried, I couldn’t make him hurt as much as I did. It was all natural…and so was the birth of Jesus in that stable. I understand from some Catholics that there may be some belief that the birth of Jesus was neat, tidy, painless and miraculous; that she lay down in the stable, and suddenly Jesus was in her arms, having bypassed all the messy stuff. Personally, I don’t buy that one. I think that she gave birth the way we all have to, mess, blood, pain and all…but that’s another topic for another thread.
The only thing that may not have been ‘natural’ was the method God used to provide His half of the DNA (or whatever you want to term it.) We know that God did not have sex with Mary BECAUSE both the bible and the Book of Mormon stated that Mary was a virgin. Seems simple enough to me. I don’t get the horrified gaspies at the idea, y’know. It’s just that, well…if she was a virgin, she didn’t have sex with anybody. Or Anybody.
Now why aren’t you saying ‘well, that’s good.’ WHY are you insisting that I believe something that I am ADAMANTLY TELLING YOU THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE???
There you go. Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of God. the Only Begotten Son of God; His Father in a way that He is not the Father of anybody else, anywhere else.
But He didn’t do it by having sex with Mary, because the Bible and the Book of Mormon both say that Mary was a virgin at Christ’s birth.
I suppose that it would be too optimistic to ask you if you actually GET it, now?
D
dianaiad
Guest
Yes, Nancy, I am loved.
but…not by you. If you loved me, you would believe me.
Oh, not that my beliefs are TRUE…but that I actually know what they are.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Paul, you are mistating things.
Thank you for that, Paul. I am now free to call you a liar.
Oh, ‘sexual intercourse’ was a phrase used and understood, Paul–it was not used in these contexts, and there was a reason for that.
Yes. it is. Care to use some?
P
ParkerD
Guest
Hi, again, Jennifer,
I hope you have had a good day.
The Book of Mormon had a purpose that was inspired by the Holy Spirit in accordance with God’s perfect plan for this earth. It’s purpose is to bring people to Christ (which also means to bring them to a recognition that repentance will bring them personal peace) and to the understanding of how the Holy Spirit can be present guiding their life.
Christ spoke everything He spoke with a perfect knowledge of both what He said and what He meant, as well as that the words could become misconstrued by those who would take the words and make them mean something they personally wanted them to mean. He knew the Holy Spirit is required to draw truths from the scriptures that provide complete understanding about Him and His Father and their relationship.
So in answer to your first question here, Christ was giving more light and knowledge about Himself with that statement which John heard and wrote down, than He or the prophets of the Book of Mormon gave about Heavenly Father and Christ and their relationship. Nephi in the Book of Mormon had more knowledge than what he wrote, and he tells about that–that John the Revelator would receive visions about some of the future history of the world that John would have the assignment to write about, and Nephi did not have that assignment even though he received the same knowledge about the future. The scriptures give “line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little.”
Mormons believe Christ was God the Son in pre-mortal life, and God the Son when He was born to Mary. They really do believe that He was the very Son of God the Father, and that He was begotten.
Jennifer, I hope you’ll continue to really read the Bible and know that Heavenly Father and Jesus love you personally. They know you individually, and love you as you are. They want you to progress in life, including have personal peace and joy. I hope you will understand that They are OK with you reading the Bible and thinking without feeling like They or anyone are going to reprimand you for seeking Their personal involvement in having a relationship with you as you read, including guiding your thoughts and feelings and desires as you read without preconceived ideas. They love you so very much! But They will not force a set of beliefs on you. You get to choose for yourself, and seek inspiration.
N
nancy_dalrymple
Guest
All that i said came right out of your book, why do you deny it? I even gave you the pages for you because you wanted proof, Can you read??? DAH! go read it then, read it and weep! Because it is an awsome thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD! And you are loved, God loves you! Wake up and smell the coffee, OH! that is right you don’t drink coffee because you might get poisoned like one of your first Presidents almost did by his wife. GEEE Sorry
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