Mormons become God's after death....

[Kdesiel]

Do you really deny that your church leaders taught, until very recently, that the Mormon heavenly father had sex with Mary?

Heck, the missionaries taught it to me when I was an investigator and it was taught often in Sunday school classes all through the 70s and 80s, citing the same quotes from LDS prophets and apostles that I have cited on these fora.

Perhaps it is time to post those quotes again.

The teaching that Christ was conceived by usual means between Heavenly Father and Mary was also taught to me all through out my life as a Mormon. It is quoted in Mormon Doctrine. There have been many a lesson in Elders Quorum concerning this.

Diana this is just you not wanting to face facts.

 

[dianaiad]

All that i said came right out of your book, why do you deny it? I even gave you the pages for you because you wanted proof, Can you read??? DAH! go read it then, read it and weep! Because it is an awsome thing to fall into the hands of the living GOD! And you are loved, God loves you! Wake up and smell the coffee, OH! that is right you don’t drink coffee because you might get poisoned like one of your first Presidents almost did by his wife. GEEE Sorry

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Why don’t I ever just quit when I come up against a completely lost cause?

Nancy, never mind. YOu just go ahead and believe what you want to about this “Mormonite” religion you have cobbled up in your head, Do as you please. Just…the Mormonism that really exists bears no resemblance to the construct of it that is in your head.

 

[dianaiad]

The teaching that Christ was conceived by usual means between Heavenly Father and Mary was also taught to me all through out my life as a Mormon. It is quoted in Mormon Doctrine. There have been many a lesson in Elders Quorum concerning this.

Diana this is just you not wanting to face facts.

No. This is me explaining my beliefs, and the beliefs of those who taught me, and the way all those quotes are better interpreted.

You do NOT get to tell me what I ‘really’ believe, y’know.

…or should I go to some ex-Catholic and listen to him tell me what HE was taught all HIS life?

 

[ParkerD]

KDiesel or Paul or Nancy or ThuriferAcolyte or Arandur,
While this particular discussion is going on, I would like to understand whether the Catholic position is that Jesus was the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of the Highest (the Father)?

 

[Stephen168]

KDiesel or Paul or Nancy or ThuriferAcolyte or Arandur,
While this particular discussion is going on, I would like to understand whether the Catholic position is that Jesus was the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of the Highest (the Father)?

You told me Mormons believe God and Christ are one but you refuse to tell me how they are one. Do Mormons truly believe they are one or don’t you know how they are one?

 

[ParkerD]

You told me Mormons believe God and Christ are one but you refuse to tell me how they are one. Do Mormons truly believe they are one or don’t you know how they are one?

Stephen,
I referred you to John 17 since that is the major place where They are described as One. I agree with what ThuriferAcolyte wrote a few days ago (if I understood him). I have full knowledge that They are Two Separate Persons who are One in purpose, power, substance (meaning the kind of Material They are–what makes Them God), unity, will, love, understanding, and in how They do things. They are always 100% in perfect agreement and the will of the Father is exactly the same as the will of the Son.

 

[Kdesiel]

No. This is me explaining my beliefs, and the beliefs of those who taught me, and the way all those quotes are better interpreted.

You do NOT get to tell me what I ‘really’ believe, y’know.

…or should I go to some ex-Catholic and listen to him tell me what HE was taught all HIS life?

Well then you don’t understand fully what you have been and are currently being taught.
Example from a Mormon perspective God created the earth from Matter unorganized. God couldn’t create the world from nothing, he is bound by the laws of physics, laws he authored. So he organized the Earth from unorganized matter.

Now in order to conceive a child, having a physical body of flesh and bone, he would have t go about it in the same way due to the reasoning he is bond by the physical law in which he authored. He had to consummate his marriage to Mary in order to conceive Christ. He had to have the NORMAL Physical relations.

I have three children; I know you have a wonderful family as well, so I know you know what it means when we discuss NORMAL physical relations in regards to conception.

This isn’t my opinion; these are teachings of the LDS Church. Mormon Doctrine, Orson Pratt, other examples that HAVE been presented as evidence, evidence that you refuse to recognize even though it is authored by YOUR representatives from your church, not some Anti- Mormon site.

This is yet another classic example of a Mormon being presented with evidence, from their own organization in this case, that doesn’t quite add up to what “they” believe so they just simply dismiss it and change the subject, or deflect the argument/discussion/debate into to a secondary subject or illicit a purely emotional response devoid of evidence to rebut or support their claim.

From a personal note these are some of the key points on why I left the LDS faith. I know your beliefs, I served a mission, I received my endowments, I was married in the temple, all of my family are members still. I am the only one that has left the church. I know what these doctrines are and I know that they are not subject to Better Interpretation due to the fact they are doctrine preached from Apostles and Prophets, the end all be all when it comes to Mormon Doctrine, there is no “Better” interpretation to be had when it is preached from the top down as doctrine.

Like I said before, you just don’t want to face facts. I could understand, it took me a very long time to finally face some of these teachings for what they were.

 

[twopekinguys]

Here is just a random observation that may apply here.

I am finding there is little, to no consistancy in the answers we get from people who are currenly LDS.

You know how we always hear that there are 30,000+ protestant denominations? Someone disagreed with a teaching, or doctrine, so they leave and create their own church, then someone in that church does the same thing, and it goes on and on and on.

It seems like with the lack of unity on different positions within the LDS, is like they have 30,000+ different churches within their church.

I hear person A say “I believe”, person B says “I believe” (different from person A), and on and on. It even happens within the LDS leadership. There doesn’t seem to be any consistency.

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[Kdesiel]

You told me Mormons believe God and Christ are one but you refuse to tell me how they are one. Do Mormons truly believe they are one or don’t you know how they are one?

Mormons believe:
The Godhead is made of Three distinct individuals who are one in purpose, will, love ect.

1.God the Father who has a Physical and tangible body of Flesh and Bone. A Glorified Ressurected body the same as Christ has.

2.God the Son, the only Begotten of the Father who has a Glorified and Ressurected physical body of Flesh and Bone

3.The Holy Ghost, the means by which the Godhead communicates to mankind and their called Prophets and Apostles. He does not have a physical or tangilble body of Flesh and Bone he is a personage of spirit.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Dear Parker please see your answer here. Thank you Nancy

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Blessed Trinity
No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text.
… The trinity as a mystery. The Vatican Council has explained the meaning
…
www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm - 163k - Similar pages
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kdesiel]

Here is just a random observation that may apply here.

I am finding there is little, to no consistancy in the answers we get from people who are currenly LDS.

You know how we always hear that there are 30,000+ protestant denominations? Someone disagreed with a teaching, or doctrine, so they leave and create their own church, then someone in that church does the same thing, and it goes on and on and on.

It seems like with the lack of unity on different positions within the LDS, is like they have 30,000+ different churches within their church.

I hear person A say “I believe”, person B says “I believe” (different from person A), and on and on. It even happens within the LDS leadership. There doesn’t seem to be any consistency.

Has anyone else noticed this?

You will find that the more you delve into the LDS faith the “Deeper” the doctrine gets. Meaning some members won’t agree simply because they haven’t heard of the doctrine before, or it wasn’t taught to them yet. Some won’t agree with each other because they interpret the teachings differently, but more commonly you’ll find especially with touchy subjects such as Plural Marriage, Gods the Fathers Relationship with Mary in order to conceive Christ, the various Temple ordinances, the Adam God Theory, The Blood Oaths which were removes from said Temple ordinances, the exclusion of Black Men from full membership of the church until 1979, most members can’t reinforce these views. They either don’t understand them fully so they just disregard and sweep them under the proverbial rug, or they do fully understand the teachings but are afraid when confronted by someone outside of the Church to discuss because of the lack of evidence they have to support these teachings. These are touchy subjects; it would be uncomfortable to discuss any of these things especially when you don’t have a leg to stand on to defend these teachings.

 

[twopekinguys]

You will find that the more you delve into the LDS faith the “Deeper” the doctrine gets. Meaning some members won’t agree simply because they haven’t heard of the doctrine before, or it wasn’t taught to them yet. Some won’t agree with each other because they interpret the teachings differently, but more commonly you’ll find especially with touchy subjects such as Plural Marriage, Gods the Fathers Relationship with Mary in order to conceive Christ, the various Temple ordinances, the Adam God Theory, The Blood Oaths which were removes from said Temple ordinances, the exclusion of Black Men from full membership of the church until 1979, most members can’t reinforce these views. They either don’t understand them fully so they just disregard and sweep them under the proverbial rug, or they do fully understand the teachings but are afraid when confronted by someone outside of the Church to discuss because of the lack of evidence they have to support these teachings. These are touchy subjects; it would be uncomfortable to discuss any of these things especially when you don’t have a leg to stand on to defend these teachings.

Thats exactly right. That is why it all shows up as inconsitencies.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

KDiesel or Paul or Nancy or ThuriferAcolyte or Arandur,
While this particular discussion is going on, I would like to understand whether the Catholic position is that Jesus was the Son of the Holy Spirit, not the Son of the Highest (the Father)?

ParkerD, the Catholic position is that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father. The Holy Spirit did have a role in Jesus’ Incarnation in one sense:

Matthew 1:18-20
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

However, our position is firmly that Jesus Christ is the son of the Father. At Mass every week, we sing something called the “Gloria”. One of the verses states: “Lord Jesus Christ, only son of the Father”. And of course the infamous Nicene Creed is a summary of some of our beliefs, and also states: “We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father”, then later states-“For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man.”.

Within the Trinity and outside of it, we see the role of the Father as the source or beginning of everything. The Son is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. The Son is not begotten of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons believe:
The Godhead is made of Three distinct individuals who are one in purpose, will, love ect.

1.God the Father who has a Physical and tangible body of Flesh and Bone. A Glorified Ressurected body the same as Christ has.

2.God the Son, the only Begotten of the Father who has a Glorified and Ressurected physical body of Flesh and Bone

3.The Holy Ghost, the means by which the Godhead communicates to mankind and their called Prophets and Apostles. He does not have a physical or tangilble body of Flesh and Bone he is a personage of spirit.

So if a Mormon says they are One in

substance (meaning the kind of Material They are–what makes Them God),

is that their opinion or Mormon Doctrine?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

Stephen,
I referred you to John 17 since that is the major place where They are described as One. I agree with what ThuriferAcolyte wrote a few days ago (if I understood him). I have full knowledge that They are Two Separate Persons who are One in purpose, power, substance (meaning the kind of Material They are–what makes Them God), unity, will, love, understanding, and in how They do things. They are always 100% in perfect agreement and the will of the Father is exactly the same as the will of the Son.

Let me just clarify: This is where it gets difficult to define things, since “material” sort of implies a physicality, which is not really our belief (I believe I mentioned that in my views of the Father in the other thread). But yes, the substance is what they are. And of course they are two separate Persons.

 

[Stephen168]

These are touchy subjects; it would be uncomfortable to discuss any of these things especially when you** don’t have a leg to stand on to defend these teachings**.

This has always been my assumption when a Mormon suddenly disappears from a conversation.

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

And just for reference, here is how the Catechism defines our beliefs on the Trinity:

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

 

[Kdesiel]

This has always been my assumption when a Mormon suddenly disappears from a conversation.

Those are also socially controversial topics. I mean think about it, Plural Marriage, God has a Physical body and how that pertains to the conception of Christ, Adam God Theory(I must say this unlike other things listed is NOT an official teaching of the LDS church, rather a Theory that SOME of its members believe), The Exclusion of Blacks from the Priesthood…
Sticky sticky social topics as well as Religious topics. Especially when they are unwilling to fully discuss, or just blatantly ignore the topic.

 

[ParkerD]

ThuriferAcolyte,
So was Mary pregnant (“great with child”) before she had her Son, Jesus?

If so, did the tiny baby in her womb develop by cell division, and begin with a sperm and an egg?

 

[ThurifAcolyte]

ThuriferAcolyte,
So was Mary pregnant (“great with child”) before she had her Son, Jesus?

If so, did the tiny baby in her womb develop by cell division, and begin with a sperm and an egg?

Yes of course, Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ developed as any other human would. Speaking of sperm and egg is not something that is really done, however no human male, namely Joseph, contributed anything to Jesus Christ’s humanity. However that does not mean that God did not create sperm within Mary, however that’s just me speculating, I’m not saying anything officially Catholic on that issue, from what I’m aware of.