Mormons Building Temple in Vatican's Backyard

[catholic-rcia]

Did you know that in 1909 the Catholic Church built a Cathedral just about ¾ mile above the Mormon Temple in Salt lake City? Here is a Panoramic view
https://www.saltlakecathedral.org/panorama/Madeleine_swf.html

Each year thousands visit and tour this site. Each year multitudes are baptized. It is open to the pubic for prayer and for the homeless to rest in peace. Many conversions take place at this spot. So we have built a Cathedral in the heart of Mormonism. This is a good thing. God wins all battles; all sin is placed upon Him for our salvation. Let’s not worry about the battle so much because we have the luxury as Christians to know and trust the final score. What we are called to do in the mean time is to love. Spend some time at the foot of the cross, forget ourselves and just go to work. (Love)
I put the following site together after I visited this Cathedral for the first time and was baptised here in Northern Utah. I put it together because I had to share the truth I discovered with others. I was excited then and even more excited today.
In Christ

www.utahmission.com
&
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[lax16]

I guess that is a major difference between our beliefs, we believe that only those with proper authority can administer and officiate in the Lord’s church.
Since you believe that anyone may validly baptize, does that mean I can baptize for your church?

Hi - at the risk of sounding like a broken record - please define “proper authority” and how did the Mormons get it?

How did the Early Church lose it? (Please be specific)

Catholics believe that anyone may validly baptize - where does that misconception come from?

 

[flyonthewall]

Of course, it is mostly the non-LDS who provide links to the LDS scriptures, the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, and so on down the line. So what you’re actually denying is the teaching authority of your own church.

What we deny is the perverted twist that is put on their words to make them uncrecognizable. Words are pulled out of context to make them say what you want, not what was actually meant.

 

[flyonthewall]

Hi - at the risk of sounding like a broken record - please define “proper authority” and how did the Mormons get it?

How did the Early Church lose it? (Please be specific)

Catholics believe that anyone may validly baptize - where does that misconception come from?

I got it from Cat Herder on post #46 of this thread…here it is in it’s entirety:

… after death in the spirit prison, of course, with the proper authority being Mormons performing proxy endowments in LDS temples. Thus, all Christian sacraments are worthless in the eyes of the LDS Church. Compare with the Catholic position that anyone may validly baptize and that Protestants generally have valid baptisms.

The LDS are completely closed to any legitimate exercise of salvation work outside the boundaries of the church. The Catholic Church is not. It is that simple.

 

[Cat_Herder]

What we deny is the perverted twist that is put on their words to make them uncrecognizable. Words are pulled out of context to make them say what you want, not what was actually meant.

I agree that it is perverted to believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man. But that is what your church teaches.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I got it from Cat Herder on post #46 of this thread…here it is in it’s entirety:

You are being asked why Catholics have a “misperception,” per LDS theology, that everyone can validly baptize.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Regarding our priesthood and your sharing of the terrestial vision…priests also believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I am reflecting that what makes the universal Church corrupt is the clergy. Sometimes I get the impression it is really about the issue of celibacy.

Anyhoo, I draw here from our CC 1555, regarding the episcopal office of the bishops: ‘Amongst those various offices which have been exercised by the Church from the earliest times the chief,place, according to the witness of tradition (-- how things were done, set up by Christ and His apostles and carried on by their successors-- mine), is held by the function of those who, through their appointment to the dignity and responsibility of bishop, and in virtue of the unbroken succession going back to the beginning, are regarded as transmitters of the apostolic line.’

1556: 'To fulfil their exalted mission, ‘the apostles were endowed by Christ with a special outpouring of the Holy Spirit coming upon them, and by the imposition of hands they passed onto their auxiliaries the gift of the Spirit, which is transmitted down to our day through episcopal consecration.’

The episcopacy is the high priesthood.

 

[KathleenGee]

flyonthewall,

The baptism Protestants use is the Catholic rite. They are essentially baptizing souls into the Body of Christ present in the Catholic Church. Thus, if they decide to become Catholic, they are not re-baptized as they are already in membership, but are taught the Nicene Creed, profess it, and are members of their local church.

The problem with Mormonism is that it describes a different concept of God, denies all Christianity as authentic, although as Parker describes here we are not condemned to hell.

A valid baptism of a person of reason requires their desire to become part of Christ and follow Him. You cannot baptize without faith. You cannot baptize people, especially the deceased as they already decided their course against their will into a belief system they would decide to reject.

We are products of a free will.

 

[KathleenGee]

The other concern that I have with Mormonism is its degree of belief in the spirit world.

We are to avoid spiritism because it leads our focus away from God.

 

[flyonthewall]

Can you please explain exactly when the proper priesthood authority was lost? Who was responsible for passing it on? Who dropped the ball? Why would the Holy Spirit permit it - did the Holy Spirit leave His people?

The proper priesthood authority was lost at the death of the last Apostle. It was the Apostles that were responsible for passing it on. It would seem the Apostles “dropped the ball” as they did not pass it on. And, finally, the Holy Spirit will not force anyone to do anything, so it is not a matter of the Holy Spirit “permitting” it or leaving His people.

Can you please explain how Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery had it restored by John the Baptist - was John the Bapstist responsible for bestowing priesthood authority in the bible?

John the Baptist was under the direction of Peter, James and John to bestow the keys of the Aaronic priesthood. John the Baptist’s role in the Bible was to prepare the way of the Lord. The Aaronic priesthood is the same priesthood as the Melchizedek, just different a different level of responsibility or in other words the Aaronic is a subset of the Melchizedek.

Also, how can Mormons be in the Aaronic priesthood when they are not related to Aaron?

The Aaronic priesthood is not a different priesthood than the Melchizedek, but simply a lesser version of it. As you know, the Lord wanted to give more to the Israelites but they would/could not receive it, so instead, the Lord gave a prepatory law to them…the Law of Moses. Under the Law of Moses, the fullness of the gospel was not there so the priesthood given to Aaron and sons was just enough to officiate in the ordinances of the Law of Moses.
Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses. Things changed at that point. Remember that the gospel was not to be taken to the gentiles either but that was changed. Dietary laws changed, the law of circumcision changed, just to name a few.

Where is the Melchizedek priesthood explained in the bible as it is practiced by Mormons today?

The Melchizedek priesthood is what Jesus Christ gave to the Apostles…it is the keys of the kingdom, the power to seal on earh and in heaven.

Why are Mormon boys permitted to be priests and deacons? Is that in the bible? Who changed things? How is that a restoration?

Simply put, the Aaronic priesthood is prepatory to the Melchizedek priesthood. The youth are prepared with a few responsibilities to be ready to take on larger responsibilities of the Higher priesthood.
It is the Aaronic priesthood that was restored, how it is excercised changed after it was restored. I do not know exactly when the youth were incorporated into the Aaronic priesthood but why exactly would it matter? There were prophets called as youth in the OT.

I know it is a lot of questions, however, this loss of priesthood authority stuff gets mentioned so many times and no one ever explains it. Thanks!

Keep in mind that there is a difference between the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood and the Melchizedek priesthood. One can hold the priesthood without the holding the keys. It is the keys that is the proper authority, which can be delegated to those without the keys.
This is how the Apostles can call a leader of a congregation, that has all the authority to lead that congregation but not the entire church.

These are our beliefs, and I understand that you will not agree with them, and may generate more questions, which I would be happy to answer to the best of my ability.

 

[flyonthewall]

You are being asked why Catholics have a “misperception,” per LDS theology, that everyone can validly baptize.

As I read the post, I was being asked where I got the misconception that Catholics believe anyone can validly baptize.
If I understood it incorrectly, then lax16 will say so.
I really never understood how a representative of a protestant faith can perform a valid baptism for the Catholic faith…did the Catholic church extend that authority to other faiths? Can a non-catholic officiate in Catholic rites?

 

[flyonthewall]

The other concern that I have with Mormonism is its degree of belief in the spirit world.

We are to avoid spiritism because it leads our focus away from God.

Not quite sure I follow…could you explain? Do you not believe our spirits exist after the death of our mortal bodies? Do you not believe that spirits go somewhere after death?
This is a rather vague statement.

 

[Cat_Herder]

As I read the post, I was being asked where I got the misconception that Catholics believe anyone can validly baptize.
If I understood it incorrectly, then lax16 will say so.
I really never understood how a representative of a protestant faith can perform a valid baptism for the Catholic faith…did the Catholic church extend that authority to other faiths? Can a non-catholic officiate in Catholic rites?

Catholicism and Protestantism are not different faiths but complete and incomplete versions of the same faith, respectively. They are held together by their faith in the Triune God. Once that faith is abandoned we enter the realm of other faiths such as LDS.

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall,

The baptism Protestants use is the Catholic rite. They are essentially baptizing souls into the Body of Christ present in the Catholic Church. Thus, if they decide to become Catholic, they are not re-baptized as they are already in membership, but are taught the Nicene Creed, profess it, and are members of their local church.

So then the Catholic church has extended Catholic priesthood authority to protestants?

The problem with Mormonism is that it describes a different concept of God, denies all Christianity as authentic, although as Parker describes here we are not condemned to hell.

Well that is your spin on it, we do not deny all Christianity as being authentic. We recognize there are many people that truly believe in Christ, we do not deny anyone their Christianity, as others deny us ours.

A valid baptism of a person of reason requires their desire to become part of Christ and follow Him. You cannot baptize without faith. You cannot baptize people, especially the deceased as they already decided their course against their will into a belief system they would decide to reject.

We are products of a free will.I agree with you on this that a valid baptism requires faith, but I also believe that it requires proper priesthood authority to perform that ordinance.
And your comment about baptizing the deceased against their will, only shows that you do not understand our belief on it.
We believe that the ordinance of baptism is required of ALL people. Those that were not baptized with the proper authority in this life must still receive baptism. Baptism for the dead is performed by proxy for those people, but is not effective unless they accept it. Nothing is done against anyone’s will. If they would not accept it in this life, they would not accept it in the next either…but we do not judge who will or won’t accept it, so we make if available to ALL.

 

[flyonthewall]

Catholicism and Protestantism are not different faiths but complete and incomplete versions of the same faith, respectively. They are held together by their faith in the Triune God. Once that faith is abandoned we enter the realm of other faiths such as LDS.

Sooooo, then Catholic authority is the same as Protestant authority and Protestant authority is the same as Catholic authority? Can a Protestant minister come into a Catholic church and perform any rite the same as a Catholic priest?
What exactly are you saying? Can you clarify?

 

[Cat_Herder]

Sooooo, then Catholic authority is the same as Protestant authority and Protestant authority is the same as Catholic authority? Can a Protestant minister come into a Catholic church and perform any rite the same as a Catholic priest?
What exactly are you saying? Can you clarify?

No, not any rite. Only baptism and marriage.

The other sacraments require valid priesthood authority as Jesus did not give the authority to perform them to everyone, only the Apostles. That is missing in the Protestant churches and is the main reason why they are incomplete.

 

[JeanMichel]

If you aren’t able to understand the difference between the two scenarios, that is not my problem. If you think anyone cares about the difference, or not, I’d say you wouldn’t know…that you are projecting your own distaste of all religion onto the entire world.

Blanket everything with a reduction of Christianity, which states we’re participants in a kumbayah fest meant to make you feel good about yourself.

I don’t know why anyone would need religion for that.

Peace Rebecca, I know you now and I understand your feelings. Your actions speak so loudly that I cannot hear your words. What is so sad, is that it is those others that are lost that will also not be able to hear. Tis a great pity; but hope remains full. We each grow at our own pace and there is a beautiful life with Christ in front of you.

 

[flyonthewall]

No, not any rite. Only baptism and marriage.

The other sacraments require valid priesthood authority as Jesus did not give the authority to perform them to everyone, only the Apostles. That is missing in the Protestant churches and is the main reason why they are incomplete.

So if I am following you correctly, then the authority to baptize and to marry was given to everyone? And the other rites are by valid priesthood authority only…?
What would be the difference between the authority to baptize and marry as opposed to the other rites?
Does baptism only require faith on the part of the receiver and no authority of the performer?
I’m trying to understand where you are coming from.

 

[RebeccaJ]

All the baptized share in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Every one of us are prophets, priests and kings. This is a universal belief of all of Christianity, Catholics east and west and Protestants. It varies in degree what this means, most Protestants viewing the priesthood of all believers as the only priesthood.

The Sacrament of Holy Orders is not viewed as valid in Protestant churches, by reason that the ordinations done by Protestants were/are invalid.

So yes indeed, the Catholic Church has protected from the beginning the rite of Holy Orders, and have ordained bishops and priests by the laying on of hands. Beginning with Apostles to this day. The idea the Apostles “dropped the ball” is without merit.

Within the Catholic Church baptisms are ordinarily done by a member of the clergy. However, in cases of emergency, such as imminent death, anyone can baptize.

Non-Catholic baptisms are viewed as valid by virtue that the intent is the same as that of the Catholic Church, and the form is Trinitarian.

 

[Cat_Herder]

So if I am following you correctly, then the authority to baptize and to marry was given to everyone? And the other rites are by valid priesthood authority only…?

The authority to marry is given to everyone and the couple in fact are the ministers of that sacrament. Baptism is a bit different. We know baptism is necessary to salvation and that God desires all men to be saved. Thus God desires everyone to be baptized. When someone is in danger of death and there is no priest it would be contrary to the will of God for that person to die without baptism and thus God allows that anyone may baptize. Ditto for Protestants who don’t know that the Catholic Church is the complete expression of Christianity.