Mormons Building Temple in Vatican's Backyard

[RebeccaJ]

Peace Rebecca, I know you now and I understand your feelings. Your actions speak so loudly that I cannot hear your words. What is so sad, is that it is those others that are lost that will also not be able to hear. Tis a great pity; but hope remains full. We each grow at our own pace and there is a beautiful life with Christ in front of you.

Your condescending self-righteousness is duly noted. Too bad you can’t hear yourself.

 

[flyonthewall]

All the baptized share in the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. Every one of us are prophets, priests and kings. This is a universal belief of all of Christianity, Catholics east and west and Protestants. It varies in degree what this means, most Protestants viewing the priesthood of all believers as the only priesthood.

The Sacrament of Holy Orders is not viewed as valid in Protestant churches, by reason that the ordinations done by Protestants were/are invalid.

So yes indeed, the Catholic Church has protected from the beginning the rite of Holy Orders, and have ordained bishops and priests by the laying on of hands. Beginning with Apostles to this day. The idea the Apostles “dropped the ball” is without merit.

Within the Catholic Church baptisms are ordinarily done by a member of the clergy. However, in cases of emergency, such as imminent death, anyone can baptize.

Non-Catholic baptisms are viewed as valid by virtue that the intent is the same as that of the Catholic Church, and the form is Trinitarian.

So then a valid baptism does not need authority to perform, it is based soley on the faith of the believer?

 

[ParkerD]

D&C 132:20
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

Joseph Smith explicitly taught that men become gods and that even the Heavenly Father was once a man.

Cat Herder,

Sheol means the spirit world in LDS lingo, which would be similar to “Abraham’s bosom” as noted in the parable of Jesus. It doesn’t mean the “telestial kingdom”. The “telestial kingdom” is the “glory of the stars”, and comes after the resurrection. The spirit world comes before the resurrection.

Joseph Smith did teach that Heavenly Father was once a man like Christ, which would mean He was perfectly perfect and sinless during His mortal life, and resurrected Himself because He had that power over death as Christ had that power over death.

For someone not to be able to make a distinction between the words “equal to God the Father” or “like the Father and the Son” means that there is a difference in usage of the word “equal”–so we seem to use that word differently. My favorite references about becoming like Christ are as found in the book of Revelation, and they are quite clear though they do require faith and belief to be believed, and it is probably helpful for one to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit when reading those passages, or any passage in the book of Revelation. I think that was intended by the Apostle John when he recorded his visions–but they were clearer to understand when he wrote them than what we now have, although clear enough.

Have a good day.

 

[Cat_Herder]

So then a valid baptism does not need authority to perform, it is based soley on the faith of the believer?

It is also based on the intention of the minister. The minister must intend to baptize in the name of the Triune God. That is why Mormons can’t validly baptize.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So then a valid baptism does not need authority to perform, it is based soley on the faith of the believer?

The authority comes from Jesus Christ, who is the one and only High Priest over His Church.

You should understand that the word “church” has layers of meaning in Catholicism. The Church itself of course, but all the baptized are members of the Body of Christ, which makes us all a community of believers.

One faith, one baptism.

 

[JeanMichel]

JeanMichael,

Glad you like Catholic commercials but we haven’t seen them here, and we always advised to just live our faith out and grow in relationship with other people.

You are also bypassing the construct of Mormonism and pointing me out as uncharitable for identifying it.

You need to apply that to the Mormons…We already affirm the good people many are. The issue is their perception of us and our corruption and how they are going to help Rome from itself…

Kathleen, if I spent my time pointing out all of the faults of every other Christian Church and every other religion, I would never be able to share the gospel with anyone. I would never be able to talk about St. Francis, or St. Bernadette, or so many other Saints.

During my life I have found more than enough to criticize. What I realized is that if I continued to only look for the thorns on every rose, I would miss all the beauty that God has made and miss seeing his Will being done everywhere. He is God; not just for me, but for everyone on earth. I don’t have to worry about Mormons, Jews, Baptists, Methodists, Orthodox, Copts, or JWs. These are groups that do not have the fullness of truth. If someone is going to judge another or set a high standard, it will be set highest for those who have been given the most. What these other groups do or their insurmountable faults are nothing. All of us who follow Christ fail him and fall short of him. Those inside the Church and those outside of it. Would that the CC and Catholics were as perfect or met the same standard that we set for all these others groups.

To fulfill the Great Commission we don’t need to breath hellfire and damnation. There are some here that are fully committed and engaged in that type of work. However, I personally reject the method and I do so by both knowledge and experience. First, it is not the way of Christ. Second, so few people are capable of positing true criticism. Too often they criticize a concept that can condemn the Catholic Church and its members at the same time. This type of criticism will make the logical man flee and the ignorant man confused.

I think it is appropriate to discuss what are the best tools for bearing witness to another and how best to condemn heresy.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Cat Herder,

Sheol means the spirit world in LDS lingo, which would be similar to “Abraham’s bosom” as noted in the parable of Jesus. It doesn’t mean the “telestial kingdom”.

I know, but my point is that the telestial kingdom is equivalent to the blissful bosom of Abraham, albeit eternal. Just as with Abraham’s bosom, the denizens of the telestial kingdom are aware that there is a higher degree of glory (which would be heaven in orthodox Christianity). But unlike Abraham’s bosom, the denizens of the TK have no hope of ever attaining higher glory.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not quite sure I follow…could you explain? Do you not believe our spirits exist after the death of our mortal bodies? Do you not believe that spirits go somewhere after death?
This is a rather vague statement.

Not speaking for Kathleen here, but how I see it, a spirit guarding treasure, and reliance on questionable apparitions, is problematic.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know, but my point is that the telestial kingdom is equivalent to the blissful bosom of Abraham, albeit eternal. Just as with Abraham’s bosom, the denizens of the telestial kingdom are aware that there is a higher degree of glory (which would be heaven in orthodox Christianity). But unlike Abraham’s bosom, the denizens of the TK have no hope of ever attaining higher glory.

Interesting enough, I’ve seen a few Mormons speculate that movement up their three degrees may be possible.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Interesting enough, I’ve seen a few Mormons speculate that movement up their three degrees may be possible.

The LDS hold that promotion is possible via proxy rituals, but only before the general resurrection at which rise the three kingdoms. Hence once you’re in the TK there is no getting out, and that is one aspect in which it differs from purgatory.

 

[JeanMichel]

Hi Parker - Please understand that for Catholics, bible study is optional. However, I wish more would choose to get involved and I am including myself in this.
(a few questions -Is it good to study the bible out of context and neglect what was going on in early Church history or should we study that too? How about the writings of the early church fathers - and you know, the guys that put the bible together? The Didache? Anything else you think one should read?)

I thought this was interesting since Catholics are always, always criticized for their lack of bible study:

Just released: (edited for length)

Pope Benedict Speaks Out on the Catholic Church and the Bible
By Marilynn Hughes
Published Nov 12, 2010
Pope Benedict XVI Participates in the Liturgy
Encouraging the world’s Catholics to continue in their study and love of the Word of God, Pope Benedict XVI makes a public plea for private scripture study.

Although the Catholic Liturgy is filled with scripture, it has been a common misconception among some Protestant Denominations that Catholics don’t know or read the bible. But Pope Benedict XVI is challenging this view in a new encyclical signed November 11, 2010 - Verbum Domini or The Word of the Lord. “We must never forget that all authentic and living Christian spirituality is based on the Word of God proclaimed, accepted, celebrated and meditated upon in the Church,” Pope Benedict XVI stated according to the Catholic News Agency.

Misperceptions about the Catholic Liturgy and the Bible

Despite the misconceptions which are held by many Protestant Churches about Catholicism and their use and understanding of the Scripture, the Catholic Church utilizes more scripture in the Daily Liturgy than any other denomination.
Each Mass contains three readings from the Holy Bible. The first reading is from the Old Testament, the second reading from the New Testament Acts or Letters and the third reading spoken by the presiding priest is the Gospel of the Lord. All of this occurs right before the homily, which is the word used in Catholicism for a ‘Reflection’ on the readings. Other Protestant Churches might compare it to a sermon, although it is different because of this scriptural basis.

For those who attend Mass daily, they need only do so for three full years to hear the Bible in its entirety.

Even so, Pope Benedict XVI felt it valuable to write a lengthy encyclical on the importance of the Word of God and a renewed need for scripture in the lives of Catholics around the world.

Verbum Domini (The Word of the Lord)

Read more at Suite101: Pope Benedict Speaks Out on the Catholic Church and the Bible suite101.com/content/pope-benedict-speaks-out-on-the-catholic-church-and-the-bible-a307754#ixzz158LS7chA

Parker, I do not appreciate the type of snide remark about Catholics and knowledge of scripture. This response was a good one. Knowing scripture is a valuable trait, but living scripture is the ultimate goal of the Word. It is taking it into ourselves and living in daily in our interactions with our brothers and sisters; strangers and acquaintances alike, on this earth. As the scripture tells us, I would take the poor widow who gives her all to serve God than the richest or most knowledge man who does not serve with all his heart.

We can argue scripture, but what we cannot do is argue obedience to God, loving him with all our heart, might, mind, and strength. In addition, loving others as we would love ourselves. We all fall short of this counsel and may we all humbly follow Jesus through all our trials and be prepared to sacrifice all we have for him.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The LDS hold that promotion is possible via proxy rituals, but only before the general resurrection at which rise the three kingdoms. Hence once you’re in the TK there is no getting out, and that is one aspect in which it differs from purgatory.

Yes, doctrinally (as far as Mormon doctrine goes) this is what the Mormon church teaches. Of course, there are many beliefs within Mormonism that are not doctrinal. Some widely held, others considered more on the fringe. The idea I heard from a few Mormons, of the possibility of advancing from one kingdom to another, is not doctrinal, but it was believed by the individuals that it could be possible.

 

[tundramom]

To fulfill the Great Commission we don’t need to breath hellfire and damnation. There are some here that are fully committed and engaged in that type of work. However, I personally reject the method and I do so by both knowledge and experience. First, it is not the way of Christ. Second, so few people are capable of positing true criticism. Too often they criticize a concept that can condemn the Catholic Church and its members at the same time. This type of criticism will make the logical man flee and the ignorant man confused.

I think it is appropriate to discuss what are the best tools for bearing witness to another and how best to condemn heresy.

First off, if you wish to condemn heresy, as you say, it first needs to be pointed out AS heresy. Mormonism itself is highly heretical.

I disagree about the need to breath hellfire and damnation. For myself, it sure worked on me. It was not until I saw myself as the sinner that I am that I knew I needed Jesus. Too little truth leads to apathy. I prefer to call a spade a spade. No amount of touchy-feely sentiments of “love” would have made me see the truth. I had to be called on the carpet, and I believe it was done logically and with love. The very type of criticism you condemn is what brought me to Catholicism because there IS an absolute truth and not just whatever “feels” right.

Steph

 

[lax16]

The proper priesthood authority was lost at the death of the last Apostle. It was the Apostles that were responsible for passing it on. It would seem the Apostles “dropped the ball” as they did not pass it on. And, finally, the Holy Spirit will not force anyone to do anything, so it is not a matter of the Holy Spirit “permitting” it or leaving His people.

How do you know that the proper priesthood authority was lost as the death of the last Apostle? Matt 28:18-20 “Then Jesus approached and said the them, All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

1. Are you saying that the apostles didn’t go out and preach and baptize?
2. Where was the Holy Spirit during this time? The HS was still with the people or not?
   3… Do Mormons baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit?

John the Baptist was under the direction of Peter, James and John to bestow the keys of the Aaronic priesthood. John the Baptist’s role in the Bible was to prepare the way of the Lord. The Aaronic priesthood is the same priesthood as the Melchizedek, just different a different level of responsibility or in other words the Aaronic is a subset of the Melchizedek.

John the Baptist did not pass on priesthood authority in the New Testament! He baptized people, including Jesus, but he did not pass on priesthood authority - where did you get this from?

Aaronic Priesthood:
Numbers 3:10 - But only Aaron and his descendants shall you appoint to to have charge of the priestly functions. Any layman who comes near shall be put to death.
Are all Mormon males related to Aaron?

These are our beliefs, and I understand that you will not agree with them, and may generate more questions, which I would be happy to answer to the best of my ability.

Thanks!
I will be asking more questions based on the rest of your post.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I do not appreciate the type of snide remark about Catholics and knowledge of scripture. This response was a good one. Knowing scripture is a valuable trait, but living scripture is the ultimate goal of the Word. It is taking it into ourselves and living in daily in our interactions with our brothers and sisters; strangers and acquaintances alike, on this earth. As the scripture tells us, I would take the poor widow who gives her all to serve God than the richest or most knowledge man who does not serve with all his heart.

We can argue scripture, but what we cannot do is argue obedience to God, loving him with all our heart, might, mind, and strength. In addition, loving others as we would love ourselves. We all fall short of this counsel and may we all humbly follow Jesus through all our trials and be prepared to sacrifice all we have for him.

JeanMichel,
Please note that we have never, unless my memory is bad, gotten into depth regarding the scriptures except in one case where I noted that the fact of Christ cleansing the temple and calling the Pharisees a certain word doesn’t mean He was giving us an example to do the same thing.

My remark was a direct comment that came after having been called a word I took issue with. I wasn’t saying Catholics don’t study the Bible. I was responding that I have had some conversations where the words stay on the surface, and don’t look at in depth meanings nor at translations that look at the original meaning intended by the speaker or writer.

I suspect that if I were to have an in depth conversation with you, I would find that you know the Bible quite well. I also have remarked that many Catholics “live” the Bible, so I wasn’t talking about that aspect, at all.

I was talking about such specific issues as “becoming like Christ,” “eternal marriage”, “Jesus as the Rock”, “Adam’s choice to remain with Eve and thus fall from the garden of Eden”, “the gospel taught in the spirit world,” “the existence of temples for sacred ordinances”, “the role of prophets”, “the prophecy of a falling away before the end times”, “what the words another gospel mean”, “the meaning of the Bread of life and the direct comparison with manna”–and I could go on.

As I have remarked before, I have very much appreciated what you have added to this forum, while I am “on the way out.”

 

[JeanMichel]

Did you know that in 1909 the Catholic Church built a Cathedral just about ¾ mile above the Mormon Temple in Salt lake City? Here is a Panoramic view
https://www.saltlakecathedral.org/panorama/Madeleine_swf.html

Each year thousands visit and tour this site. Each year multitudes are baptized. It is open to the pubic for prayer and for the homeless to rest in peace. Many conversions take place at this spot. So we have built a Cathedral in the heart of Mormonism. This is a good thing. God wins all battles; all sin is placed upon Him for our salvation. Let’s not worry about the battle so much because we have the luxury as Christians to know and trust the final score. What we are called to do in the mean time is to love. Spend some time at the foot of the cross, forget ourselves and just go to work. (Love)
I put the following site together after I visited this Cathedral for the first time and was baptised here in Northern Utah. I put it together because I had to share the truth I discovered with others. I was excited then and even more excited today.
In Christ

www.utahmission.com
&
www.chooseyourcross.com

This post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you for your kind words. I do acknowledge that things have gotten better on this thread, but if you mention “love” to much you become accused of “singing Kumba Ya”, etc. I don’t think love is the action of choice here. Regardless, as you say, there is nothing to fear because there is only God. When even the highest Mormon leadership has attended the SLC Cathedral and Mormons and Catholics seem to have done many great works together in Utah without any loss to the Catholic Church, why do discussions here take such a bitter approach?

 

[JeanMichel]

I agree that it is perverted to believe that the Heavenly Father was once a man. But that is what your church teaches.

Was Jesus once a man? Is this a perverted thought? When you really drill down into this little doctrine within Mormonism, particularly the trite phrase made famous by one of their prophets, “As man now is God once was and as God now is man may become”, there seems to be a lot of confusion and it creates a truckload of criticism for them.

“As man now is God once was” - Jesus was once a man, but is God. Does that mean that God was once a man? I don’t think Mormons mean it like this, but keep it in mind. Then I have had Mormons tell me that Jesus said he does nothing that he has not seen the Father do. Frankly, this is a problematic verse for which there is little response.

“As God now is man may become”; this part of the phrase sounds surprisingly like “God became man so that man might become god”, a statement made by St. Athanasius. Is Theosis or Diefication and Exaltation the same thing? No, but there are a whole host of similarities. The Catechism states something that sounds almost identical, in 460, “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.”

This topic is one worth spending weeks studying before one is able to distinguishing competently the real differences between the LDS perspective and the Catholic. The Orthodox have focused on this doctrine for centuries and they would be a good place to start studying it. It is a great topic.

This is an area that demands a very deep understanding of both sides before attempting to criticize.

 

[JeanMichel]

As I read the post, I was being asked where I got the misconception that Catholics believe anyone can validly baptize.
If I understood it incorrectly, then lax16 will say so.
I really never understood how a representative of a protestant faith can perform a valid baptism for the Catholic faith…did the Catholic church extend that authority to other faiths? Can a non-catholic officiate in Catholic rites?

A Protestant does not baptize for the Catholic Church, but their baptism can be accepted as valid and negate the need for a baptism when they join the Catholic Church. If a Mormon joins then they must be rebaptized. Though the words of their baptism, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” meets the Catholic standard, it is thought that the Mormon understanding of God is so drastically different that their belief makes the baptism worthless or as if it was not done because proper belief was not present. Make sense?

 

[JeanMichel]

Your condescending self-righteousness is duly noted. Too bad you can’t hear yourself.

After is all said and done, you do make this a fun place to be. What can I say, you make me chuckle out loud.

 

[JeanMichel]

JeanMichel,
Please note that we have never, unless my memory is bad, gotten into depth regarding the scriptures except in one case where I noted that the fact of Christ cleansing the temple and calling the Pharisees a certain word doesn’t mean He was giving us an example to do the same thing.

My remark was a direct comment that came after having been called a word I took issue with. I wasn’t saying Catholics don’t study the Bible. I was responding that I have had some conversations where the words stay on the surface, and don’t look at in depth meanings nor at translations that look at the original meaning intended by the speaker or writer.

I suspect that if I were to have an in depth conversation with you, I would find that you know the Bible quite well. I also have remarked that many Catholics “live” the Bible, so I wasn’t talking about that aspect, at all.

I was talking about such specific issues as “becoming like Christ,” “eternal marriage”, “Jesus as the Rock”, “Adam’s choice to remain with Eve and thus fall from the garden of Eden”, “the gospel taught in the spirit world,” “the existence of temples for sacred ordinances”, “the role of prophets”, “the prophecy of a falling away before the end times”, “what the words another gospel mean”, “the meaning of the Bread of life and the direct comparison with manna”–and I could go on.

As I have remarked before, I have very much appreciated what you have added to this forum, while I am “on the way out.”

The problem is that you made a very broad statement that made Catholics as a group to appear ignorant of deep scriptural knowledge. The truth is that many don’t study the scriptures deeply; just like we find in all other churches. However, one of the beauties of the Catholic Church is the number of scholars within its ranks. I know that several Catholic scholars have worked with Mormon scholars on the Dead Sea Scrolls and other ancient documents. The Catholic Church has more than its share of excellent Biblical scholars.

I pray that I am a moderating voice so that tensions stay at a minimum. Just as I try to identify when others go too far, you went too far in this instance. Religion as a topic can be deeply emotional. I know that you have felt the sting of those emotions on many occaissions.

Maybe I am wrong; maybe I do see the hand of God in too many places. Maybe I should be more zealous to the Church. Unfortunately or fortuantely, I have lived long enough to learn that God loves all his children. I don’t believe that God is only the God of the Catholic Church, but he is the God of every truth taught and therefore is related to all churches. I believe that God is active in every life where he is sought, where the Holy Spirit guides people. I have seen his hand active in people of all kinds of churches and religions. At the last day, I pray that I will be found standing with all those who worship Christ, have longed for his coming, and are prepared to kneel at this feet. I fully expect when I kneel before him that I will see the tears of our Mormon brothers and sisters as well as the pools of tears of all the Saints that have gone before us. Catholic and Mormon, Anglican and Baptist; at the end we will all need to stand together to throw off the yoke of unrighteousness and sing praises to our God; for he is only One.