Mormons: Can I get a straight answer?

[SteveVH]

I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:

1. Please define “Progression”.
2. Please define “Salvation”.
3. Please explain what one has to do with the other.

I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.

Thank you.

 

[campeador]

Here’s a bump to the top. Hope it helps.

 

[Calculus]

Hello SteveVH,

“Progession” means “growth”. Latter-day Saints use “salvation” to refer to two different concepts. One, is the belief that through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected. Thus, we are all “saved” from physical death (1 Cor 15:22).

Two, is what is termed “eternal life” or “exaltation” in LDS theology. Eternal life/Exaltation is living in the eternal presence of God, and becoming a joint-heir in and with Jesus Christ (Romans 8:17, Galatians 4:7, Revelation 3:21, Revelation 21:7, 2 Peter 1:4 etc). Eternal life is only possible by choosing Jesus Christ, and it is only through His atonement that our exaltation is possible (eternal life comes through Him, not from ourselves). One must therefore have faith in Christ, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and enter into various covenants (such as the Endowment and Eternal Marriage), and endure to the end.

To receive eternal life is to eternally progress. We continue to grow, in love for God, and our growth glorifies God. We learn and grow for eternity, since there is no one point where one can say that they know everything, let alone about God.

I hope that helps!

 

[rainman10]

I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:

1. Please define “Progression”.
2. Please define “Salvation”.
3. Please explain what one has to do with the other.

I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.

Thank you.

Hi, SteveVH. I thought I was the only one who was confused, but apparently not. I don’t think there is a straight answer. It seems to me that in their effort to sound as though they actually believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same way we do, they have to try to restate their beliefs in such a way that there is no straight answer. They have to pad their explanations with lots of words in order to try to sound like they are true Christians, but it only makes things more confusing. Like you, I have tried to follow their explanations, but they just don’t make any sense. I agree with one of your comments on the other thread, that it seems like Mormons are more interested in progression and exaltation than in salvation. I have noticed in the many other threads that Mormons have participated in that progression/exaltation is mentioned quite often, but rarely is salvation ever mentioned. Anyway, thanks for this thread, and hopefully, someone will try to answer your questions.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rainman,

You said it very well…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Someone named “Calculus” answered last night, but apparently they’ve since been stricken from the record.

This is my understanding.

Salvation=all will be resurrected.
Progression= progressing from salvation to exaltation via covenantal works (what Mormons call ordinances). So salvation is great, but not it. There is more if you are willing to do what it takes to get that more. Some mormons in these parts use language that reflect this belief, with statements like, “you are happy where you are at”…in essence they’re saying you don’t want the “more” so you won’t get it.

Depending on how well the individual adheres to these covenants, the idea is that you progress and only those who have “done all they can do” will be exalted and live with their Father, in their heaven. Everyone else will be slotted in different “kingdoms of heaven”.

Progression is not something that started in this life. Mormons give it a back story, that begins with existing as an intelligence, becoming spirit, obtaining a body (being born), being a valient spirit previously so you can be born a mormon in this life, if not you’ll have a 2nd chance to accept mormon teaching after you die. If mormon in this life, the important steps to progression to godhood are baptism, confirmation, temple rites (endowment), temple marriage. An emphasis is then given to having large families, because this is bringing more spirits into the world so they can progress too (get a body).

Progressing from intelligence to god (exaltation), via these steps, is what progression is. Salvation is a required aspect because one needs a resurrected body in order become exalted. They believe they were witness to an event in this pre-life where Jesus agreed to be their savior, in order that they could be resurrected and therefore not have their progression stuck in death.

They view this life as a test, one where all of this pre-life experience is veiled from memory because the idea is one has to choose all these mormon teachings without falling back on a pre-life experience of God. There are plenty of faith promoting stories within mormonism of very young children saying things that indicate to mormons they still remember this pre-life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

Thanks, they have a different spirituality if they then draw from this as you say. Your explanation fits with the comments and attitudes of Mormons who come on here.

 

[SteveVH]

Here’s a bump to the top. Hope it helps.

Thanks campeador. I was ready to let it die a quiet death. I think I’ve worn out my welcome with the Mormons on this forum and have been less than charitable, mostly just out of frustration with what seems completely nonsensical to me. I won’t be surprised if I don’t get an answer but I appreciate your efforts.

 

[SteveVH]

Someone named “Calculus” answered last night, but apparently they’ve since been stricken from the record.

This is my understanding.

Salvation=all will be resurrected.
Progression= progressing from salvation to exaltation via covenantal works (what Mormons call ordinances). So salvation is great, but not it. There is more if you are willing to do what it takes to get that more. Some mormons in these parts use language that reflect this belief, with statements like, “you are happy where you are at”…in essence they’re saying you don’t want the “more” so you won’t get it.

Depending on how well the individual adheres to these covenants, the idea is that you progress and only those who have “done all they can do” will be exalted and live with their Father, in their heaven. Everyone else will be slotted in different “kingdoms of heaven”.

Progression is not something that started in this life. Mormons give it a back story, that begins with existing as an intelligence, becoming spirit, obtaining a body (being born), being a valient spirit previously so you can be born a mormon in this life, if not you’ll have a 2nd chance to accept mormon teaching after you die. If mormon in this life, the important steps to progression to godhood are baptism, confirmation, temple rites (endowment), temple marriage. An emphasis is then given to having large families, because this is bringing more spirits into the world so they can progress too (get a body).

Progressing from intelligence to god (exaltation), via these steps, is what progression is. Salvation is a required aspect because one needs a resurrected body in order become exalted. They believe they were witness to an event in this pre-life where Jesus agreed to be their savior, in order that they could be resurrected and therefore not have their progression stuck in death.

They view this life as a test, one where all of this pre-life experience is veiled from memory because the idea is one has to choose all these mormon teachings without falling back on a pre-life experience of God. There are plenty of faith promoting stories within mormonism of very young children saying things that indicate to mormons they still remember this pre-life.

Rebecca, thank you. You have given a concise explanation, as bizarre as it seems. I have a real problem with “intelligences” floating around somewhere. In my mind, intelligence must be associated with a being and does not exist apart from a being. The other issue is that these “intelligences” are apparently eternal, not created. Am I correct in this assumption?

Another problem I have though, and I am concerned for all Mormons, is that the entire reason for the passion, death and resurrection of Christ seems to be almost an after thought. The emphasis is on how much self-glory one might attain, rather than a thankful, humble heart which acknowledges all that God has done for us. I am afraid that they could loose their salvation by being led down this road.

I am pretty sure that I am thought of as just wanting to argue with them, but I truly have a concern for their eternal destiny. Anyway, thank you for your comments, they are very helpful.

God bless.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi, SteveVH. I thought I was the only one who was confused, but apparently not. I don’t think there is a straight answer. It seems to me that in their effort to sound as though they actually believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same way we do, they have to try to restate their beliefs in such a way that there is no straight answer. They have to pad their explanations with lots of words in order to try to sound like they are true Christians, but it only makes things more confusing. Like you, I have tried to follow their explanations, but they just don’t make any sense. I agree with one of your comments on the other thread, that it seems like Mormons are more interested in progression and exaltation than in salvation. I have noticed in the many other threads that Mormons have participated in that progression/exaltation is mentioned quite often, but rarely is salvation ever mentioned. Anyway, thanks for this thread, and hopefully, someone will try to answer your questions.

Thanks, rainman, I truly appreciate your comments and hope that we can have a civil, charitable discussion here.

God bless.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Steve, for your probing and trying to understand how they live out their beliefs.

I share your same observation.

I also share your same concern in regards to their own salvation. We have to put our concerns beyond what we cannot communicate or share with them, in God’s hands for their salvation.

Rebecca, will keep your post. Thanks, again!

 

[ParkerD]

I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:

1. Please define “Progression”.
2. Please define “Salvation”.
3. Please explain what one has to do with the other.

I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.

Thank you.

SteveVH,
I see that no LDS has responded, and that instead you are getting the usual self-justifications.

Short answers:

1. “Progression” means “making progress”. In a gospel sense, that would mean repenting, changing, starting on the path toward becoming sanctified and then continuing on that path and listening to both the promptings of the Holy Ghost and the voice of the Good Shepherd as He encourages and lifts toward what He promised to bring to the world.

If one stops repenting and stops changing, then they are no longer progressing and thus they have stopped becoming sanctified and have stopped listening to the voice of the Good Shepherd.

(Note: “eternal progression” means something more. It means “attaining exaltation so that as a joint heir with Christ, one can be trusted to help other spirits in their eternal progress.”)

1. “Salvation” means “being saved from the consequences of one’s own acts.” As people repent and place the burden of their sins on Christ through His atoning grace, they enter into a condition of being “saved” by Him. If they stop repenting and changing, they disqualify themselves from the condition of being “saved” until they decide to begin repenting and changing once again. If they listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd, they will being repenting and changing and will continue to do so throughout their life. By making changes, they will progress in many aspects of their life. To that extent, they are “saved” in this life, and then will continue to be “saved” in the next life from suffering the consequences of their sins there as well.
2. If a person stops progressing, it is because they stopped repenting and thus kept themselves from being “saved” which was a gift offered to them through the atonement of Christ, who suffered for our sins so that we could repent and not suffer for them. He saves us from our sins only if we repent and change. Salvation is always “on condition of repentance.”

 

[SteveVH]

1. “Progression” means “making progress”. In a gospel sense, that would mean repenting, changing, starting on the path toward becoming sanctified and then continuing on that path and listening to both the promptings of the Holy Ghost and the voice of the Good Shepherd as He encourages and lifts toward what He promised to bring to the world.

If one stops repenting and stops changing, then they are no longer progressing and thus they have stopped becoming sanctified and have stopped listening to the voice of the Good Shepherd.

(Note: “eternal progression” means something more. It means “attaining exaltation so that as a joint heir with Christ, one can be trusted to help other spirits in their eternal progress.”)

Parker, first of all, thank you so much for your response.

Forgive me here, but I would just like to clarify some things concerning the above. When you say “Progression” means “making progress”, it begs the question; to what end are you progressing? You have described the process of progression, i.e “repenting, changing, starting on the path toward becoming sanctified”, but where does the path lead? What is the purpose and what do you hope to gain?

1. “Salvation” means “being saved from the consequences of one’s own acts.” As people repent and place the burden of their sins on Christ through His atoning grace, they enter into a condition of being “saved” by Him. If they stop repenting and changing, they disqualify themselves from the condition of being “saved” until they decide to begin repenting and changing once again. If they listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd, they will being repenting and changing and will continue to do so throughout their life. By making changes, they will progress in many aspects of their life. To that extent, they are “saved” in this life, and then will continue to be “saved” in the next life from suffering the consequences of their sins there as well.

Salvation, from a Catholic point of view, means that I will enter heaven, pure and simple, through the merits of the passion and death of Jesus Christ. The closest I could come to your idea of progression would be the process of conversion, which, indeed, is a daily, life long process, a cooperation with God’ grace which leads to salvation. The process of conversion means that we are “progressing” toward greater degrees of holiness.

Catholics would also agree that we can loose our salvation. As St. Paul said, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and must persevere to the end. We have only this life in order to accomplish this, which may be one difference in our beliefs. Upon our death, our eternal destiny is immediately determined. We don’t get another chance.

You mention repentance as part of the process of progressing. Catholics repent by confessing our sins, and carrying out the penance given to us. We are also required to make amends to anyone we may have harmed through our sin. In simple terms, it means that even though I have been forgiven, I still have to pay for the window I broke.

What does it mean to you to repent? How do you repent?

1. If a person stops progressing, it is because they stopped repenting and thus kept themselves from being “saved” which was a gift offered to them through the atonement of Christ, who suffered for our sins so that we could repent and not suffer for them. He saves us from our sins only if we repent and change. Salvation is always “on condition of repentance.”

We would probably take it a bit further. Repentance, of course, is an absolute requirement of salvation, implying that one has turned from sin toward God. We will be judged according to what we have done, but also by what we have not done. Did we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless? You get the idea.

You stated: “To that extent, they are “saved” in this life, and then will continue to be “saved” in the next life from suffering the consequences of their sins there as well.”
What do you mean that we can be saved in this life and then continue to be saved in the next life? If I am drowning and someone saves me, how can I continue to be saved?

Is there another life between heaven and earth? As you are no doubt aware, as a Catholic I believe in Purgatory. This is where we are purified in order to reach the state of holiness required to enter into heaven. If we die in the state of mortal, or deadly sin, our destiny is eternity in hell. If we reach purgatory, our salvation is guaranteed.

I guess the remaining question is this. What happens to one who is not saved inthis life, as you say, and what happens to one who is not saved in this other life that you mention?

Thanks Parker.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, thank you. You have given a concise explanation, as bizarre as it seems. I have a real problem with “intelligences” floating around somewhere. In my mind, intelligence must be associated with a being and does not exist apart from a being. The other issue is that these “intelligences” are apparently eternal, not created. Am I correct in this assumption?

Another problem I have though, and I am concerned for all Mormons, is that the entire reason for the passion, death and resurrection of Christ seems to be almost an after thought. The emphasis is on how much self-glory one might attain, rather than a thankful, humble heart which acknowledges all that God has done for us. I am afraid that they could loose their salvation by being led down this road.

I am pretty sure that I am thought of as just wanting to argue with them, but I truly have a concern for their eternal destiny. Anyway, thank you for your comments, they are very helpful.

God bless.

Yes, these “intelligences” are uncreated.

LDS “focus on the resurrection”. It is why they shun the use of the cross.

I can see how their view of Christ, as the whole Person He is, and His actions for us, are diminished. But that is how Mormonism is, everything is diminished. (Of course they don’t think so.) It begins with their foundational beliefs of Who God IS. Their rejection of the Holy Trinity has produced error upon error.

Gods creating gods, into eternity, and a savior being needed as a part of this god generation. Mormons speculate, sometimes very wildly, in this regard. Their god the father was once the savior of another world, how many saviors of how many worlds have their been, and so on. Of course, Mormons know this is revolting to Christians, so they keep this talk among themselves as the stuff that only those who are able to handle “meat” can take, and all others they’ll say “that isn’t our doctrine”.

Every Mormon thinks they are the most knowledgeable and/or most orthodox, but in reality, there is no such thing as orthodoxy in Mormonism. Any Mormon can believe as many wild things as they like, as long as a) they don’t speak ill of their leaders and b) don’t act like their wild speculations are prophetic and taught as something for all others to believe with them.

I have concerns for their souls as well. Especially since almost all of my family are Mormons. I can only trust in God’s Mercy and pray a lot. I also have a concern for the number of people, and large effort they make, to lead people out of Christianity and into their errors. Once in, it is very difficult to leave. And then a concern for those where the whole house of cards has tumbled. So many are left with nothing but an abused and battered soul. God and religion become then nothing more than things to be avoided at all costs, if only out of a sense of survival.

Joseph Smith & Co. will have a lot to answer for on judgment day.

 

[JeanMichel]

SteveVH,
I see that no LDS has responded, and that instead you are getting the usual self-justifications.

Short answers:

1. “Progression” means “making progress”. In a gospel sense, that would mean repenting, changing, starting on the path toward becoming sanctified and then continuing on that path and listening to both the promptings of the Holy Ghost and the voice of the Good Shepherd as He encourages and lifts toward what He promised to bring to the world.

If one stops repenting and stops changing, then they are no longer progressing and thus they have stopped becoming sanctified and have stopped listening to the voice of the Good Shepherd.

(Note: “eternal progression” means something more. It means “attaining exaltation so that as a joint heir with Christ, one can be trusted to help other spirits in their eternal progress.”)

1. “Salvation” means “being saved from the consequences of one’s own acts.” As people repent and place the burden of their sins on Christ through His atoning grace, they enter into a condition of being “saved” by Him. If they stop repenting and changing, they disqualify themselves from the condition of being “saved” until they decide to begin repenting and changing once again. If they listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd, they will being repenting and changing and will continue to do so throughout their life. By making changes, they will progress in many aspects of their life. To that extent, they are “saved” in this life, and then will continue to be “saved” in the next life from suffering the consequences of their sins there as well.
2. If a person stops progressing, it is because they stopped repenting and thus kept themselves from being “saved” which was a gift offered to them through the atonement of Christ, who suffered for our sins so that we could repent and not suffer for them. He saves us from our sins only if we repent and change. Salvation is always “on condition of repentance.”

Parker, who are you striving to be like? What role does Christ play in your progression? When Christ directed his followers to be perfect, what do you think he meant?

Have you studied the Eastern Ortodox faith? If so, what do you think of their concept of seeking holiness? What role does holiness play in the lives of Mormons?

Is Salvation ever a single event. Does Salvation demand of the follower a process of Sactification? Are there any similarities or differences you find between Mormon teachings and those of Protestants and/or Catholics?

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, who are you striving to be like?

Like Christ, eventually–through repentance, sanctification, and being lifted up by Him and His grace.

What role does Christ play in your progression?

He really is the Good Shepherd and the Rock of salvation meaning He is the leader and the real source of being able to make the changes that are sanctifying and will be lasting changes–which bring progress to an individual.

When Christ directed his followers to be perfect, what do you think he meant?

To be “complete”, “whole”, and “healed” through His atoning grace and through being lifted up by Him.

Have you studied the Eastern Ortodox faith?

No, I haven’t, but I have noticed that those who participate on this forum from that background have more charity than most others, which I have appreciated very much.

If so, what do you think of their concept of seeking holiness?

If that concept is what brings the real inner charity, then I think that has been a key teaching that is very important.

What role does holiness play in the lives of Mormons?

I would say LDS don’t use that word very much in describing a “concept of seeking holiness.” I would say the word that is used more is “seeking sanctification”, although the following passage is quoted often and uses both concepts:

Moroni 10:30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.
31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Is Salvation ever a single event.

No.

Does Salvation demand of the follower a process of Sactification?

Absolutely, yes.

Are there any similarities or differences you find between Mormon teachings and those of Protestants and/or Catholics?

I would say this is too broad of a question to answer in a few sentences–nor am I any sort of expert. From my perspective:
Briefly, the Protestant concept of having a personal relationship with the Savior and Redeemer seems more pronounced than in the Catholic faith, since it backs off from emphasizing the authority of the priest, backs off from “confession” to the priest, and places greater emphasis on “unmerited grace.” The Catholic concept of “authority” is of course more pronounced than in Protestantism. There are many teachings within Catholicism that seem to me to be uniquely Catholic or Anglican or Episcopalian.

Comparatively, Mormonism certainly stresses authority, strengthens that concept with knowledge that there are living prophets and apostles, backs off from the idea of confession to a priest, stresses a personal relationship with Christ and emphasizes that the Holy Ghost is a revealer of truth and knowledge and that the person should be receiving personal revelation in their life as they seek to “come unto Christ and be perfected in Him.”

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, first of all, thank you so much for your response.

Forgive me here, but I would just like to clarify some things concerning the above. When you say “Progression” means “making progress”, it begs the question; to what end are you progressing?

A person can make lasting changes in this life that really do impact their daily life, and their level of happiness as well as being able to lift others. That is “progressing”. The ultimate goal is to be Christ-like in all of our interactions and all of our relationships–as much as possible in this life, but yet acknowledging that we will be imperfect and will always need repentance. That ultimate goal will be able to be realized in the resurrection, through the power of Christ’s atoning grace.

Bringing into clear view the goal of “eternal progression” means the person becomes other-centered in that their major desire is to be able to help others and that they have moved past looking to satisfy their own personal needs as the focus of their life.

You have described the process of progression, i.e “repenting, changing, starting on the path toward becoming sanctified”, but where does the path lead?

It is captured in Moroni 10:30-33 that I cited in the prior post to JeanMichel. It is also captured by the following two scriptures:

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Alma 7:23 And now I would that ye should be humble, and be submissive and gentle; easy to be entreated; full of patience and long-suffering; being temperate in all things; being diligent in keeping the commandments of God at all times; asking for whatsoever things ye stand in need, both spiritual and temporal; always returning thanks unto God for whatsoever things ye do receive.
24 And see that ye have faith, hope, and charity, and then ye will always abound in good works.
25 And may the Lord bless you, and keep your garments spotless…
What is the purpose and what do you hope to gain?

… The closest I could come to your idea of progression would be the process of conversion, which, indeed, is a daily, life long process, a cooperation with God’ grace which leads to salvation. The process of conversion means that we are “progressing” toward greater degrees of holiness.

I agree with these points here.

Catholics would also agree that we can loose our salvation. As St. Paul said, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and must persevere to the end. We have only this life in order to accomplish this, which may be one difference in our beliefs. Upon our death, our eternal destiny is immediately determined. We don’t get another chance.

“Another chance” is not really the LDS concept. It is saying that if a person didn’t really adequately have a “first chance” to the extent of understanding what was going on with the opportunities and the covenants involved with becoming a joint heir with Christ, then they will have that “first chance” and they can make those personal covenants with their whole commitment in the spirit world, if they so choose. But it always depends on “what they did with what they knew” in this life.

What does it mean to you to repent? How do you repent?

A person repents as they recognize the particular sin and understand that it is wrong, as they confess the sin to Heavenly Father and ask that the sin be forgiven through Christ’s atoning grace (not using certain specified words, but that idea), and commit to Heavenly Father and the Savior to not do the sinful thing again (if they do, then they repent again and recommit and perhaps evaluate why they redid what they had committed not to do, so that with Christ’s help they figure out the root cause and seek His healing help). If their sin offended others or harmed others, then they should ask forgiveness of those others and should “restore” to the extent they are able.

In LDS context, if the sin was serious enough that it harmed others or self in a significantly damaging way, such as breaking the commandment about adultery or fornication or breaking honesty laws of the land, then in that kind of case the person should confess the sin to their “bishop” who is called as a “common judge in Israel” and can assist in seeing when that person is restored to a purified relationship with Christ and can partake of communion worthily.

Repentance, of course, is an absolute requirement of salvation, implying that one has turned from sin toward God. We will be judged according to what we have done, but also by what we have not done. Did we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless? You get the idea.

I completely agree with that, being part of having charity and seeking to build Zion, a place of holiness and peaceful unity of a whole community.

You stated: “To that extent, they are “saved” in this life, and then will continue to be “saved” in the next life from suffering the consequences of their sins there as well.”
What do you mean that we can be saved in this life and then continue to be saved in the next life? If I am drowning and someone saves me, how can I continue to be saved?

That tried to describe that a person who has sinned has damaged their relationship with God, but has also damaged themselves and has gotten into the position of having penalties in this life as well as in the hereafter–punishment. (Continuation to follow)

 

[ParkerD]

(Continuation)
They would have personal unhappiness, feelings of discontentment and guilt, feelings of remorse that can be akin to feeling a “fire of regret”, and those kinds of feelings can be overcome through Christ lifting the burden of those feelings as the person has repented. In that way, they are “saved” and no longer feel “drowning” (to use your analogy). But it becomes all the more important that they repented when otherwise, in the next life if they hadn’t repented in this life, they would suffer the punishment of “hell-fire” if they had not repented.

Is there another life between heaven and earth?

Yes. LDS use terms such as “the spirit world”, “paradise”, “spirit prison”.

As you are no doubt aware, as a Catholic I believe in Purgatory. This is where we are purified in order to reach the state of holiness required to enter into heaven. If we die in the state of mortal, or deadly sin, our destiny is eternity in hell. If we reach purgatory, our salvation is guaranteed.

The LDS belief leaves out “Purgatory” for those who did their best to repent and seek righteousness in this life. For them, there is no “Purgatory” but instead “paradise”. “Spirit prison” is way different than the idea of “Purgatory” also.

I guess the remaining question is this. What happens to one who is not saved inthis life, as you say, and what happens to one who is not saved in this other life that you mention?

Thanks Parker.

The LDS belief is that when the Bible says “every knee shall bow” and “every tongue shall confess” in regards to believing in Christ, that those prophets knew what they were talking about and the only people who won’t be “saved” with the level of salvation that they lived for by their actions in life (meaning some will have a lesser level of salvation but they will be able to be saved from the permanent pains of hell although suffering the pains of hell for a very long time) will ultimately be those who “sinned against the Holy Ghost” and fought Christ through a rebellion that was openly defiant of Him.

 

[SteveVH]

A person can make lasting changes in this life that really do impact their daily life, and their level of happiness as well as being able to lift others. That is “progressing”. The ultimate goal is to be Christ-like in all of our interactions and all of our relationships–as much as possible in this life, but yet acknowledging that we will be imperfect and will always need repentance. That ultimate goal will be able to be realized in the resurrection, through the power of Christ’s atoning grace.

So the purpose of “progressing” is to make changes in our lives so that we will have a better life here on earth and achieve a greater level of happiness? With the ultimate goal of becoming Christ-like, would you agree that this will involve suffering (the cross) and the total surrender or your life? We have a saying that the sign of Christianity is the cross, not an easy chair.

Bringing into clear view the goal of “eternal progression” means the person becomes other-centered in that their major desire is to be able to help others and that they have moved past looking to satisfy their own personal needs as the focus of their life.

Would you then say that Mother Theresa had “progressed” to a near ultimate state?

“Another chance” is not really the LDS concept. It is saying that if a person didn’t really adequately have a “first chance” to the extent of understanding what was going on with the opportunities and the covenants involved with becoming a joint heir with Christ, then they will have that “first chance” and they can make those personal covenants with their whole commitment in the spirit world, if they so choose. But it always depends on “what they did with what they knew” in this life.

So if one does not accomplish what he should have during this life, he gets to attempt it in another life? I fail to see how this is not a second chance.

A person repents as they recognize the particular sin and understand that it is wrong, as they confess the sin to Heavenly Father and ask that the sin be forgiven through Christ’s atoning grace (not using certain specified words, but that idea), and commit to Heavenly Father and the Savior to not do the sinful thing again (if they do, then they repent again and recommit and perhaps evaluate why they redid what they had committed not to do, so that with Christ’s help they figure out the root cause and seek His healing help). If their sin offended others or harmed others, then they should ask forgiveness of those others and should “restore” to the extent they are able.

Other than not confessing your sins to a priest, this sounds very Catholic, however, our purpose is not ultimately to figure out the root cause of our sin, but to receive sanctifying grace through the sacrament of Reconciliation which removes the sin. In other words, we might be able to find out the root cause of our behavior by visiting with a competent therapist. But the therapist cannot forgive our sin and sanctify our soul.

In LDS context, if the sin was serious enough that it harmed others or self in a significantly damaging way, such as breaking the commandment about adultery or fornication or breaking honesty laws of the land, then in that kind of case the person should confess the sin to their “bishop” who is called as a “common judge in Israel” and can assist in seeing when that person is restored to a purified relationship with Christ and can partake of communion worthily.

I don’t understand the purpose of confessing to your bishop. You say it is so that the bishop “can assist in seeing when that person is restored to a purified relationship with Christ…” What does this mean? Is it that he will counsel the person on how to live a better life or is it something different? And if it is just a role of giving advice, is it advice that only he could give? Why would you have to confess to your bishop, especially since you believe that your sins are forgiven by just confessing to God directly without an intermediary?

 

[ParkerD]

So the purpose of “progressing” is to make changes in our lives so that we will have a better life here on earth and achieve a greater level of happiness?

Steve,
That indeed is one major purpose. Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

With the ultimate goal of becoming Christ-like, would you agree that this will involve suffering (the cross) and the total surrender of your life? We have a saying that the sign of Christianity is the cross, not an easy chair.

I agree with the teaching, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Would you then say that Mother Theresa had “progressed” to a near ultimate state?

Not “ultimate”, but certainly living unselfishly and serving others with great love and compassion.

So if one does not accomplish what he should have during this life, he gets to attempt it in another life? I fail to see how this is not a second chance.

As I had noted, it is not a second chance if the person did not have a “fair” chance during their mortal life to understand what was offered. It has to do with getting a “fair” chance to really make the covenants of the gospel if the person would have desired those with all their heart had they known about them during their mortal life. That’s why it will have been important about “what they did with what they knew.” There is a spectrum of what people do with what they know–whether they stay stagnant, or progress in how they love others and how they show a sincere love for God.

…But the therapist cannot forgive our sin and sanctify our soul.

I wasn’t referring to visiting with a therapist. I was referring to figuring out a root cause why one returns to doing what they had committed not to do when they repented. Often, the Savior can help the person through more sincere private prayer where they talk to the Lord about why they did what they did in a self-honest way, or using introspection or a combination of those actions where the person focuses on really being healed from their sin to not do it again.

I don’t understand the purpose of confessing to your bishop. You say it is so that the bishop “can assist in seeing when that person is restored to a purified relationship with Christ…” What does this mean?

It means that partaking communion really does require sincere repentance, and the bishops have a role of discernment so that people are ultimately counseled and cautioned not to partake unworthily since that is contrary to the scriptures to do that, and those particular sins require a greater change than just from one week to the next–they require a pattern of changed behavior.

…Why would you have to confess to your bishop, especially since you believe that your sins are forgiven by just confessing to God directly without an intermediary?

It has to do with worthily partaking of communion, with the keys of the kingdom held by the apostles since the kingdom in that regard is “membership in the church”, and with following the scriptures–both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in those respects.