Mormons: Can I get a straight answer?

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Lynn is a wife, mother, grandmother, scholar, and author with a doctorate in education. In her 11 years as a professor and researcher, and 20 years as a teacher, she has mentored thousands of students and has produced more than 50 scholarly publications. Her sphere of research is how to advance the academic and social-emotional success of “marginalized” students. Indeed, this very interest led her to question Mormonism. Once tenured faculty at BYU, Dr. Wilder left in 2008 when she experienced a crisis of faith.

exmormonscholarstestify.org/lynn-wilder.html
 
SteveVH said:
I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:
  1. Please define “Progression”.
  2. Please define “Salvation”.
  3. Please explain what one has to do with the other.
I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.

Thank you.
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The answer to your first two prompts is theosis, albeit in a peculiarly Mormon way. Sometimes Mormons differentiate between salvation and exaltation when they are trying to distinguish between salvation from physical death granted to all through Christ and exaltation–granted to those who repent of their sins, keep their covenants, and do all that they can to follow Christ.

Mormons are often loose with terminology, although they usually understand one another just fine. Christians sometimes mistake this looseness for Mormon duplicity, although that usually isn’t the case (apologists sometimes being an exception).
 
Thanks Miriam, and she also referred to the emotive aspect of feelings to prove points in Mormonism.

The emotions felt by the apostle and follower with Christ Himself on the Road to Emmaus is in different context than following a burning feeling in your heart…it is the fullment of your desires…or is it, ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’…Jesus Christ?..
 
catholic-rcia said:
]If someone wants to make a true comparison between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus that would be great.
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www.utahmission.com

Rich, this may open up some interesting points for all who are interested in finding truth.

Lack of Reasoning Power Error:
Everything having to do with GOD and His Church is so simple that any thinking person should be able to reason it out for themselves.

WeCatholics} have the truth in the Words of Jesus Christ, and the power of reasoning and basic logic in order to discern those Words properly.Now look at the abundance of verses which stress oneness, and truth.
  1. There is only one GOD. Ephesians 4:6
  2. There is only one truth. John 14:6, 17:17
  3. There is only one Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:4
  4. There is only one fold. John 10:16
  5. There is only one Shepherd for that one fold. John 10:16
  6. There is only one Church. Psalms 127:1, Matthew 16:18, 1Corinth 3:11, Ephesians 1:22,4:5
  7. There is only one authority. Matthew 18:15-18, John 20:21-23
  8. There is only one Bible. Galatians 1:8-9
  9. There is only one true interpretation of that Bible. Acts 8:30-34, 2Peter 3:14-17
  10. There is only one Baptism. Ephesians 4:5
  11. There is only one priesthood. Hebrews 7:11-17
  12. We must all be one. John 17:20-23
  13. We are obligated to search for the truth. 2Thessalonians 2:13, James 3:14, 2John 1:1-4
  14. Dire consequences await those who do not reveal the truth. Romans 1:18
  15. Dire consequences await those who do not accept the truth. Romans 2:8
  16. Dire consequences await those who do not speak the truth. Revelation 21:8, 21:27
  17. We have only one life, so we must get it right the first and our only time around.
Anything that contradicts even one of the verses listed above is not from GOD, but from the author of division and confusion.
With all of those “Ones” listed above, why is it thatfolks cannot use their power of reasoning to see that they do not comply with what Holy Scripture commands of us?
With so many folds and sects using the Name of Jesus #4, #5 and #6 above. teaching contra dictions; Why you know they violate #2

None having any concrete spiritual authority, they violate #7.
They all certainly violate #9 with their practice of “individual interpretation” of Holy Scripture.

I was wondering why is it so hard to reason that to have only one truth, you must have only one authority.

It is that simple, but here we go, just look around,and you can see they a whole lot of folks cannot understand it, and there are many, many of sects obvious to all.

After all, by simple reasoning and common sense, it is easy to see that GOD would not have given us one inerrant book without first giving us one infallible interpreter for it.
And anything more then one written scripture is in violation of # 8.
God Bless
🙂
 
One Bread, One Body…concrete Sacraments and doctrine, a history of saints, the miracles of the Eucharist, the great history of the Virgin Mary all down through the time of the Church coming to help her children in their necessities…just like she did at Cana at the wedding…
 
KathleenGee said:
One Bread, One Body…concrete Sacraments and doctrine, a history of saints, the miracles of the Eucharist, the great history of the Virgin Mary all down through the time of the Church coming to help her children in their necessities…just like she did at Cana at the wedding…
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The Mother of GOD is in the first book of the Bible, Genesis 3:15, and she is in the last book of the Bible, Revelation 12:1-2, and she is in the middle of the Bible, Isaiah 7:14?

Peace
👍
 
KathleenGee said:
Thanks Miriam, and she also referred to the emotive aspect of feelings to prove points in Mormonism.

The emotions felt by the apostle and follower with Christ Himself on the Road to Emmaus is in different context than following a burning feeling in your heart…it is the fullment of your desires…or is it, ‘The Fulfillment of All Desire’…Jesus Christ?..
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Kathleen,

The example cited by Miriam did indeed show that the person had not understood the expression by the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, and that would be logical because she had evidently not even read the Bible before her interest in Mormonism. She had what one could call an “ungrounded faith”, and had not grounded her faith by study and prayer including studying the Bible–but she was no doubt a very busy person with much going on in her life.

The grounding of faith through study (including of the Bible and of the Savior’s life and teachings therein) and prayer are certainly essential for a follower of the Savior if they really desire to be guided by the Holy Ghost in their life beyond an initial impression to join a religion. Otherwise, it is like sitting on a three-legged chair and expecting to be able to be stable and not have it easily tip over.

So, her chair tipped over, as would be expected, by her choice not to spend the time grounding herself and being lifted up by a relationship with Christ that included having studied His life and teachings earnestly and devotedly.🙂
 
ParkerD said:
RJ,

No, although I enjoyed Johnny Carson from time to time, in this case I read the account the person had shared about her life and how she had not read the Bible. It was fairly simple to do–(now that sentence has an intentional double meaning). 🙂
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Yes ParkerD, I know, you read everything in the same way, as though you somehow know everyone’s thoughts, intentions and experiences…just pointing out: you don’t.
 
ParkerD said:
RJ,

No, although I enjoyed Johnny Carson from time to time, in this case I read the account the person had shared about her life and how she had not read the Bible. It was fairly simple to do–(now that sentence has an intentional double meaning). 🙂
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For anyone interested, here are pertinent quotes from Lynn:

"I decided to test the value of faith in Jesus by reading and studying the words of Christ Himself.

At first I looked for Jesus’ words in the Book of Mormon. Oops. The first person account of Christ’s words supposedly from the Christ who supposedly visited the Americas were only found in a small section of Third Nephi in the Book of Mormon, so I had to go to the New Testament to read the words of Christ."
 
Miriam1947 said:
Lynn is a wife, mother, grandmother, scholar, and author with a doctorate in education. In her 11 years as a professor and researcher, and 20 years as a teacher, she has mentored thousands of students and has produced more than 50 scholarly publications. Her sphere of research is how to advance the academic and social-emotional success of “marginalized” students. Indeed, this very interest led her to question Mormonism. Once tenured faculty at BYU, Dr. Wilder left in 2008 when she experienced a crisis of faith.

exmormonscholarstestify.org/lynn-wilder.html
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I once heard a Mormon convert to Catholicism say that knowing Mormon history will lead you out of Mormonism, and knowing Christian history will lead you into the Catholic Church. I think the first part applies here.
 
Sunstone said:
The answer to your first two prompts is theosis, albeit in a peculiarly Mormon way. Sometimes Mormons differentiate between salvation and exaltation when they are trying to distinguish between salvation from physical death granted to all through Christ and exaltation–granted to those who repent of their sins, keep their covenants, and do all that they can to follow Christ.

Mormons are often loose with terminology, although they usually understand one another just fine. Christians sometimes mistake this looseness for Mormon duplicity, although that usually isn’t the case (apologists sometimes being an exception).
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Thanks Sunstone. I am a bit confused, however, when you say that they are “trying to distinguish between salvation from physical death granted to all through Christ…”
I am not aware that anyone is saved from physical death, but rather spiritual death.

In any event, it just seems to me that the Mormon focus is on one attaining greater degrees of glory, rather than a thankful heart toward our Savior. I know they will say they have a thankful heart, but their focus speaks otherwise, at least to me. Even in Catholicism, we believe that some will be given higher places in heaven depending upon how they lived their life here on earth, but that each will be filled with as much happiness as they are able to contain. Some of us are shot glasses. Some of us are 32 ounce big gulps. Each will be filled to the brim.

I have a difficult time discerning the Mormon notion of “progression” though. In some ways it may be similar to the Catholic view, however, our idea of happiness is gazing upon and worshiping our God for eternity, becoming a part of and sharing in His family.
It seems the Mormon notion concentrates on having one’s own world with a desire to be worshipped by spirit children. In other words, being god without God.

I’d be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks
 
Rebecca,

Had to laugh when I brought up the link and saw the photo of Johnny in the role…

Welllllll, what I think is that IF you remove Joseph Smith and his apostasy claims…I think Mormonism will end up being a very wealthy restorationist assembly 75 years from now similar to the fundamentalists, promote strong family ties within, along with their shared unity and construct as basically a reaction against the Catholic Church.
 
Parker,

I actually studied the text of ‘Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us’…may be today I will try to find it…busy doing Christmas things or just taking a zzzz…
 
SteveVH said:
I will admit right off the bat that I am confused. What I am asking for is a straight forward answer, as short as possible, to the questions that follow:
  1. Please define “Progression”.
  2. Please define “Salvation”.
  3. Please explain what one has to do with the other.
I would really appreciate your response according to your own understanding and ask that you do not hit us with volumes of quotes. I do not mean that you can’t back up your statements with sources, but please, one or two, not twenty at a time.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Strictly speaking there is only salvation, not progression. Progression is not mentioned anywhere in LDS scripture. If it has any meaning at all, it refers to what happens to you after you are saved. What is the Catholic view of what happens to you after you are saved? Do you spend the rest of eternity playing on harps singing praises to God, or do you have something useful to do with your time? That is the only context where it might possibly have a meaning; but strictly speaking it is questionable theology to redefine “eternal salvation” in terms of “eternal progression”. There is no scripture that suggests that, either the Bible or LDS scripture; and frankly I have never met a Mormon scholar or theologian who has been able to explain to me what “eternal progression” means that made a lot of sense to me. My advice to you is to stick to what LDS scripture teaches, which is eternal salvation and not progression.
 
zerinus said:
Strictly speaking there is only salvation, not progression. Progression is not mentioned anywhere in LDS scripture. If it has any meaning at all, it refers to what happens to you after you are saved. What is the Catholic view of what happens to you after you are saved? Do you spend the rest of eternity playing on harps singing praises to God, or do you have something useful to do with your time? That is the only context where it might possibly have a meaning; but strictly speaking it is questionable theology to redefine “eternal salvation” in terms of “eternal progression”. There is no scripture that suggests that, either the Bible or LDS scripture; and frankly I have never met a Mormon scholar or theologian who has been able to explain to me what “eternal progression” means that made a lot of sense to me. My advice to you is to stick to what LDS scripture teaches, which is eternal salvation and not progression.
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Zerinus, thanks for your response. There sure seems to be a lot focus on “progression” from Mormon posters here for it not to be a fairly mainstream belief among Mormons, regardless of whether or not it is found in LDS scripture.

As to your question "What is the Catholic view of what happens to you after you are saved? Do you spend the rest of eternity playing on harps singing praises to God, or do you have something useful to do with your time? I will be happy to explain.

If you are saved, one of two things will happen to you immediately upon your death. You will either enter into a state of purification (purgatory) to prepare you to enter into heaven, or, you will enter directly into heaven. In the case of purgatory, we have no idea what that entails other than some manner of purification. At the end of time, purgatory will cease to exist. Purgatory or not, eternal life with God is guaranteed. If you are not saved, you will immediately enter into hell for eternity. If you enter into hell, there is no salvation. We have only this life to determine our eternal destiny.

As to what happens when we get to heaven “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind conceived of what God has planned for those who love Him.” We know that we will share in the “beatific vision” which means that we will see God “face to face”, as He really is and we will be his adapted sons and daughters, sharing in the life of the Holy Trinity. We will praise and worship God forever. We know that we will enter a place with no more pain, suffering or tears; a state of complete and utter happiness. Even if one could return from heaven, I doubt human language could convey what it is really like. We will not be sitting on clouds, playing harps. Of that, I am certain. In fact, I am certain that if we can conceive it, that is not what it will be like.
 
SteveVH said:
Zerinus, thanks for your response. There sure seems to be a lot focus on “progression” from Mormon posters here for it not to be a fairly mainstream belief among Mormons, regardless of whether or not it is found in LDS scripture.
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I know the expression has been used a lot in the Church, and General Authorities occasionally use it even now. But I don’t think most of them have seriously thought through what it might actually mean. It is something that has never been clearly defined, because it is essentially meaningless. There is an entry for it in the LDS Topical Guide, but no explanation! Under that heading in the Topical Guide it simply says: “see Eternal Life; Exaltation; Family, Eternal; Man, Potential to Become like Heavenly Father”. But no explanation! It is not defined under any of those entries either. There is an entry for it in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, but it starts with a disclaimer: “The principle of eternal progression cannot be precisely defined or comprehended, yet it is fundamental to the LDS worldview.” Hmmmm! If it is so fundamental, how come nobody knows what it means? On the other hand, it is a fundamental principle of Mormonism that truth is by definition comprehensible, and light is discernible. Something that no one can understand what it means is not truth. It is darkness, not light.
As to your question "What is the Catholic view of what happens to you after you are saved? Do you spend the rest of eternity playing on harps singing praises to God, or do you have something useful to do with your time? I will be happy to explain.
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If you are saved, one of two things will happen to you immediately upon your death. You will either enter into a state of purification (purgatory) to prepare you to enter into heaven, or, you will enter directly into heaven. In the case of purgatory, we have no idea what that entails other than some manner of purification. At the end of time, purgatory will cease to exist. Purgatory or not, eternal life with God is guaranteed. If you are not saved, you will immediately enter into hell for eternity. If you enter into hell, there is no salvation. We have only this life to determine our eternal destiny.
Click to expand...
As to what happens when we get to heaven “no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor mind conceived of what God has planned for those who love Him.” We know that we will share in the “beatific vision” which means that we will see God “face to face”, as He really is and we will be his adapted sons and daughters, sharing in the life of the Holy Trinity. We will praise and worship God forever. We know that we will enter a place with no more pain, suffering or tears; a state of complete and utter happiness. Even if one could return from heaven, I doubt human language could convey what it is really like. We will not be sitting on clouds, playing harps. Of that, I am certain. In fact, I am certain that if we can conceive it, that is not what it will be like.
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Thank you. In Mormonism too it is not revealed in detail what kind of work people will be engage in after they are saved in heaven; but we believe that they will be active, not passive, and they will have something to do. Jesus said: “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” (John 5:17.) If God the Father (and the Son) have some work to do in heaven, it is unlikely that we will be sitting on our laurels doing nothing. We will have something to do too, like they do.
 
Zerinus…

Somehow I do not think you are the same fellow as on here before…and again, I am seeing more and more dismantling of the ideas of progression and exaltation…and that Mormons do believe it is through Jesus Christ that the world was created…

God said I am Who Am…He is…no past no future…but always Is…Who wills all to be in existence…

But the bottom line is that Mormonism is continually changing its tune…may be even the persons behind some of the names as well…

Sorry to be cynical but I am don’t believe what is going on here…

Mormonism and its beginnings can’t compare to the authenticity of the early Church and the consistency of public beliefs and teachings, as well as those who conformed their lives to the Gospel of Christ.

Christ gave us all we needed for salvation.
 
Come to think of it, Zerinus, the person using this name spoke many times of exaltation and progression…gave us the reference to Colossians…
 
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