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Mormons: Do you believe that God the Father sinned, or had the potential to?
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RebeccaJ
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I agree.Another bit of evidence that Mormons do not believe in God. God must be by definition “perfect” - that is to say, complete in his nature and being. And he must be supreme. What is not supreme is either human or angel, but not God. If there is no supreme God, then the universe has multiple “centers”. If the universe has multiple centers, there will eternally be conflict and chaos.
If God must become “more Godly”, that is the same as saying he is *not *God! God is only God when He is God. When he is less than what He can be, when He is struggling to become “more” God, then he is less than a finished, complete God, he is incomplete, undone, still trying to get there.
What is “MLM”?
MLM=multilevel marketing. “companies that sell their products with independent members who recruit more members, each level sharing profits with the levels below them”
fox13now.com/2015/11/10/multi-level-mecca-utahs-mlms-are-big-business-but-few-make-money/
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Tarquin
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Thank you for agreeing with me. I, too, believe we become sinless through repentance, and the grace and forgiveness of God. One of your co-believers, however, gave as the Mormon position that each of us has to make the effort to become perfect through personal efforts. I said that I thought that was impossible, given human nature.
You and I are in agreement, that we become “sinless” not through our own willful efforts to become sinless, but through forgiveness. And certainly God can forgive whomever He will. Jesus came upon some old sick guy not making the slightest effort to perfect himself, just waiting to take a bath, and without that man even looking up, Jesus said, “Your sins are forgiven.” And a criminal about to die, who apparently had not been doing well at all at working towards his own perfection, was told by Jesus that despite his failure to work towards perfection, he would be with Jesus in Paradise that self-same day. Isn’t God wonderful!
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Tarquin
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I applied for a job in Utah. It wasn’t clear exactly what I would be doing. I asked if it was sales, since I intensely disliked sales at that time (I have since had irregular success selling certain types of products). I was told it would be explained, in a way that I took to mean it was not sales. I sat in a room with about a dozen other people. I was more polite than wise back then. After an hour, we were asked if we wanted to continue. I was the only one who didn’t. I was furious (being more passionate than patient back then) that they had refused to tell me up front it was “sales”. They were all Mormons. How do I know? They wore Mormon uniforms. White shirts. And the temple garments of the speaker were visible through his shirt. I felt as though they had not completed their efforts to become perfect. My youthful rebelliousness prevented me from seeing the Spirit of God at work with them. … or maybe not.
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IgnatianPhilo
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It seems to me theres no problem with heavenly Father sinning then. Though it does present problems that Jesus was sinless and yet heavenly Father wasn’t. I think of it this way. There are eternal amount of more powerful gods before your Heavenly father who is just part of the chain of propagating the species of humanity. Why should our existence be considered an exception? Why should we not look on our lives now and assume Heavenly father didn’t go through the same things we do? Violence, anger, lust, sin in general or are we so unique as to be the only race created by one of the gods so as to not even allow for perfection? How is it possible if heavenly Father was once like us now, that he was without sin then?
The implication I draw from us sinning is that this is part of the eternal chain of events stretching back forever. There was never a time when there was no sin, never a time when a god was perfect for they were all once sinners. How can your heavenly Father be the exception to the rule given this eternal stream of gods? Thus I don’t know how Mormons can say heavenly Father didn’t sin. If you say this it puts your own next life in jeopardy. It means most likely you will not receive what your heavenly father received, the ability to create and conceive millions of souls with his heavenly wife. You will be on the lesser tier of heaven, a servant to god but not exalted yourself unfortunately.
If what I say is true this should give more hopes to Mormons who hope to perpetuate the chain in the next life and generate more universes/people with their spouses. If heavenly Father was a sinner and received the ability to produce spirit children with his wife in heaven perpetually, then Mormons shall receive the same thing. Though it does introduce problems of how Jesus is more perfect than Heavenly Father.
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jane_doe
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IgnatianPhilo, your argument makes no sense in light of scripture.
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Tarquin
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IgnatianPhilo seems to be asking about God’s former mortal existence, wherein he was a savior on a previous alien world, not earth. He seems to be asking, if God had committed a sin in that stage of his existence – as a mortal – would that commission have compromised his “authority” – or his perfection, his qualification for the Celestial Kingdom? Or would sinning, at least grievously sinning, have disqualified him from becoming a God over this earth in his current godly position. The question is sensible. Mormons say God had an existence as a mortal on another planet. He was the Savior on that planet; it is by virtue of Jesus “seeing” him carry out his mission as Savior, that Jesus himself knew what to do in his mission. (Apparently Jesus was not otherwise intelligent or wise enough to figure it out for himself.) IgnatianPhilo’s words:
On the other hand, IgnatianPhilo notes:
Jane_Doe seems to be saying that, yes, Mormons sin, but their sins are wiped out:
Then IgnatianPhilo, and I know I am over-simplifying the full import of his post, concludes:
Since sins are forgiven, and once forgiven, those who committed those sins may attain the Celestial Kingdom and even Godhood, then it may be that our God Himself is a sinner, and was forgiven. IgnatianPhilo is saying the Mormon God not only had the “potential” to sin, but could have sinned in fact. A Mormon would have no reason to object to the possibility that God not only “could” sin but that he did sin; since if he had sinned, he could be forgiven. He then asks an intriguing question I had never considered:
and:
This observation may be circular in a way, or it may be that the Mormon attempt to explain it is circular. But IgnatianPhilo’s conclusion seems inescapable, as far as sinful Mormons and sinless Saviors are concerned. If Saviors (Jesus on Earth and God on whatever planet he died on) are literally so sinless they need no repentance and if all other mortals are born “in sin” and “none are perfect, no not one,” then there is no guarantee, it fact it seems exceedingly unlikely, that any Mormon will succeed in becoming Top Gods themselves:
He ends noting that there seems to be a difficulty in suggesting that God may have sinned, but Jesus did not. I don’t see sufficient evidence in Mormon teachings, even in the Journal of Discourses, to believe that it was taught that God actually did sin. The exception would be those individuals and groups (there are many groups in the Mormon Church who hold to a variety of beliefs not commonly taught from the pulpit) who believe in some form of reincarnation. Such that a being first “serves” as an average mortal (or less), then an Apostle, then a Savior and then a Holy Ghost (or reverse order), and then a God the Father.
It might be that you do not understand the scriptures being referred to, or you are not familiar with some of the historical, theological teachings of the prophets of the Mormon Church that are being alluded to.
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jane_doe
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IgnatianPhilo’s entire argument is based on the idea that the atonement doesn’t fully cleanse away sin: that after a sin is repented that it somehow still lingers. This is NOT scriptural. Rather, when a sin is repented of, is 100% wiped clean.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
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Tarquin
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You are free to believe what you want of course. I’m not trying to convert you. However, as I read through IgnatianPhilo’s several posts, it seems to me he was not presenting his own beliefs. He was presenting the Mormon argument (as well as he understood it), and then showed its incompatibility with reason and with Scripture.
In that case, he may have misrepresented a detail of the Mormon argument. However, his contention that even a wiped clean sin is a serious issue when considering the purity of God, is valid. One way he might have asked the question was, “If God is pure, is he pure only at certain times and for certain durations of his life? Or if God is pure, is he absolutely pure – meaning he was so pure he never had to have his sins wiped clean?” If he ever had to have his sins wiped clean, then maybe we would want to look for a different God, one more pure than he. If there are two Gods, for example, and one had his sins wiped clean, but the other had never sinned at all, are they equal in purity – in historical purity, in relative purity? Are they equally qualified to be promoted to Supreme Godship? It’s an interesting question, for which I suspect there is no clear Mormon teaching by an authority such as a prophet.
We hope God’s God was equally generous, but since his planet undoubtedly had different scriptures, and those scriptures expressed different details, we cannot know for certain. Since the Gods have free will, some might be more particular about what they consider a sin. Maybe to fail to attend the Sabbath of the Two Moons is a sin on one world, like failure to honor the single-moon Sabbaths on earth were at times considered to be a sin. Or maybe on that other planet, not only was shellfish forbidden, and mammals with cloven hooves, but also all feathered creatures and nocturnal animals with claws. Furthermore, since free will exists among the Gods, it’s possible that one God is a little more judgmental and a little less forgiving than another God. So our Scriptures may not have applied to our God in his alien mortality. God might have committed odd sins that are okay on our world. He may not have continued the same standard under which he lived.
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IgnatianPhilo
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I would thank Tarquin for clarifying my argument.
Jane I granted that sin is cleansed away as if it never happened and this gives you the opportunity to be like your heavenly father, ie a God on another planet/galaxy/universe.
If you insist that heavenly Father even when he was a normal man like us never sinned then I don’t think you realise the full implications. The fact that your heavenly Father sinned as you do now should be good evidence of your future salvation. Mormons within the thread have suggested that God had the propensity towards sin yet didn’t in his mortal existence and why is that? They want to preserve the unique goodness of God, yet in doing so they open themselves up to being an exception within the cosmos. They also put into jeopardy their own salvation since they cannot be sinless now in their earthly lives like heavenly Father was. If Heavenly Father was sinless and is now a God over us as his reward then no Mormon will receive the same for they have all sinned.
Is the creation of earth by your heavenly Father the only one in which all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (except Jesus)? Your God had a God who at one point had a mortal existence, and if your heavenly Father didn’t sin it seems to me your heavenly grandfather didn’t sin in his mortal existence. The question i ask is what do you yourself gain in insisting heavenly Father never sinned?
Or am I misreading you completely? Do you know heavenly Father sinned but simply refuse to acknowledged it since his sin was wiped out? I would note that the scripture you quote is for us, it doesn’t necessarily apply to heavenly Father. He probably has his own scripture which applies uniquely to him from his God. Now if you want to argue that what applies to us applied to heavenly Father by his God then I don’t see how you can escape my conclusion. Heavenly Father was a sinner once, now clean but at one time he was a sinner.
What do Mormons in their own theology lose by admitting this? Nothing as far as I can see. The Christian however has deep problems with this idea based on the inferiority of the Mormon God to the Christian God. One God was always perfect, the other was never perfect and still isn’t.
You also suggest my argument makes no sense in light of scripture, that is regarding Jesus being more perfect than heavenly Father, if heavenly Father sinned. The fact that scripture declares to us that Jesus was the perfect sinless sacrifice in Hebrews is evidence of Jesus never sinning. Unless you want to suppose Jesus sinned before being incarnated I don’t think you will however. If heavenly Father sinned, which I think is the true implication of Mormon theology and Jesus didn’t, I think it is safe to say Jesus is greater than your heavenly Father in that he was able to resist sin unlike his Father.
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jane_doe
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No, it is not. Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.
Again: Clean = Clean. Pure = Pure. No longer remembered = No longer remembered.
Actually there is. It is right in scripture:
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Ps 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
D&C 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.
Romans 8:17 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
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jane_doe
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Have you seen me insist upon such a position?
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IgnatianPhilo
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Alright then. Why are Mormons so hesitant to say he sinned then?
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jane_doe
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Because we don’t know.
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IgnatianPhilo
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So Mormons should be equally hesitant to say their father in heaven lived a good God pleasing life?
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jane_doe
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Dude, that past is not known. I’ve already said that.
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Hatikvah
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Could God reveal something about that to Mormons (in your point of view)? I know that this is speculative, but I’m not asking about the actual events themselves, nor the probability of God revealing something – I’m asking whether He can (since He is only omnipotent in His domain, right?)
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jane_doe
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Of course, God can reveal anything He wants when He deems the time to be right.
This last part is… I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
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Hatikvah
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Well, a common assumption (I’m not saying this is revealed doctrine, nor am I saying that it is necessarily true) that I’ve seen some people build on here is that God only has His attributes of power, particularly omniscience and omnipotence, within His sphere of influence because of these other gods.
So God is without those two essential attributes in another god’s sphere of domain. At least that is the logical conclusion on a matter such as this. If that is true (I haven’t studied this for years, so please correct me if I’m wrong), then God may not be able to reveal what is outside of His universe or sphere of power.
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jane_doe
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All of what you describe here is very much in “we don’t know” territory. I would not make such claims, because such things are not known.
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