Mormons: Do you have windows in your churches?

[Prince_Hal]

Agreed, there is no theological reason for not having windows in the LDS chapel (the “sanctuary” part if you are looking for a fairly similar Catholic comparison). Also no sinister reason either. I am a Mormon Bishop converting to Catholicism. I was LDS for over 20 years.

It is just an architectural style call. Often LDS building are built to be easily extended. That may be the reason.

Now an interesting question is as to whether the style of the LDS chapel is conducive to spirituality and prayer. No. It is a very business like building. You will not find people praying or kneeling prior to a LDS “sacrament” meeting. The chapel area will be too busy with people talking and discussing their callings and perhaps their lessons. There is no focal point or reminders of Christ or the Cross. Very plain, very office like.

Of course LDS might say that the temple provides such a place. Potentially the Celestial room of the temple enables some contemplation. It is certainly very quiet in the Celestial room, people only talk in a whisper if at all. It is ornately decorated, but of course, no cross, and rarely a picture of a biblical scene. It is quiet agreed, but conducive to spirituality ? No, just quiet. After rushing to the temple, getting clothed, going through 90 minutes of a temple session, it is good just to sit and relax. No kneeling, just sitting in plush chairs. Relaxation.

But look at some of the Catholic churches of the 1970s and 1980’s. Hardly conducive either. But I think that error is recognised.

So, LDS chapels / sanctuary areas with no windows ? No sinister, not theological, just poor architecture for a house of worship, great for economics.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[ParkerD]

Agreed, there is no theological reason for not having windows in the LDS chapel (the “sanctuary” part if you are looking for a fairly similar Catholic comparison). Also no sinister reason either. I am a Mormon Bishop converting to Catholicism. I was LDS for over 20 years.

It is just an architectural style call. Often LDS building are built to be easily extended. That may be the reason.

Now an interesting question is as to whether the style of the LDS chapel is conducive to spirituality and prayer. No. It is a very business like building. You will not find people praying or kneeling prior to a LDS “sacrament” meeting. The chapel area will be too busy with people talking and discussing their callings and perhaps their lessons. There is no focal point or reminders of Christ or the Cross. Very plain, very office like.

Of course LDS might say that the temple provides such a place. Potentially the Celestial room of the temple enables some contemplation. It is certainly very quiet in the Celestial room, people only talk in a whisper if at all. It is ornately decorated, but of course, no cross, and rarely a picture of a biblical scene. It is quiet agreed, but conducive to spirituality ? No, just quiet. After rushing to the temple, getting clothed, going through 90 minutes of a temple session, it is good just to sit and relax. No kneeling, just sitting in plush chairs. Relaxation.

But look at some of the Catholic churches of the 1970s and 1980’s. Hardly conducive either. But I think that error is recognised.

So, LDS chapels / sanctuary areas with no windows ? No sinister, not theological, just poor architecture for a house of worship, great for economics.

God bless,

Hal.

Hal,
I suppose you noticed what you wanted to notice. The greeting that I observe that goes on is friends asking about my daughters with health issues, my son in the military, my daughter at college, our own health and welfare, and we ask about our friends in the same way. “Mankind was my business” happens in word and in deed. The bishop is a part of that (I know from personal experience.)

There is a simplicity to LDS buildings, indeed. When my high priests group kneels in prayer at the end of our meeting, we are kneeling on simple carpet in a simple room with simple walls and simple windows and simple chairs. Nothing ornate about it. But it is all heartfelt as we pray for ward members out of work, or with health issues, or who have lost loved ones.

Spirituality comes from within, not from without. The heart is the window to the soul. Within the soul is where we encounter the Savior and His healing power.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks, Hal.

I am wondering, do you know any other Mormon Bishops who have converted? What about Stake Presidents (who get a salary)? Or any other higher postions of honor? Thanks.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thanks, Hal.

I am wondering, do you know any other Mormon Bishops who have converted? What about Stake Presidents (who get a salary)? Or any other higher postions of honor? Thanks.

Personally, I think that question is best suited for another thread, or probably taken into private conversation.

Back to your original question.

Considering the timeframe of the biggest boost in Mormon numbers and expansion.(I believe was in the 1960’s and 70’s) Alot of denominations were building churches, and ultimately couldn’t pay for the building and lost them. Architects wised up quickly and convinced many of them to design their structures in a way that if they did fall into financial trouble, the structure could easily be sold for another use, and not be limited to being used as a church.

Also, something to consider is where the particular structure is to be built. Most communities have zoning and building requirements. Meaning, the communites would require the structure to blend in with its surrounding neighbors. Most communities wouldn’t allow a huge gothic structure in the middle of bunch of Spanish Style terra cotta style buildings.

There is also the functionality of the structure.

I am just guessing here, but from what some of our LDS friends have described here about the structures, the main worship space is in the center of the building, with other rooms surrounding it. Could it be, that the idea of worship is “central” in their belief? The “center” of their faith?

I look at it like the heart is the center of our body, and everything else grows from there. Just like in our Catholic church. The Tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the center of the Sancturay, or altar area.

Of course, there is also the most simple of exlpainations. Should you be gazing out the windows during services, or focus on the worship?

Just my thoughts. God Bless.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi, I’ll write more tomorrow or the next. Its late and I just read this and can’t answer it all. Just a couple of comments:

But here is the interior worship space, same building :
http://www.meridianmagazine.com/images/mh/montpeliertabernaclebig.jpg

Iit looks like all the windows are out in that hall maybe, where the light is coming from. There is light from above. Perhaps the top row of windows.

Uhmn…I used to go to conferences in that building. That second picture is a very carefully framed shot of the organ loft, Eliza. Very few churches/ meeting halls have windows in the organ pipes.

The interior of that building is a central meeting hall is surrounded by classrooms, and the classrooms have the windows. The classrooms are separated from the central domed area by folding walls so that during conferences, where everyone is meeting in the building, or when there are concerts, etc., the classrooms are opened up; the entire building is, like the Mormon Tabernacle on Temple Square, open all the way to the windows.

It was designed like that because Montpelier, Idaho is, well…cold. Winters get to 40 below zero quite frequently—and it stays there.

Eliza, I understand that you have this lovely theory going. Personally, I wouldn’t have minded a bit if it were actually true—(well, except for the comparison to the JW’s…and even that’s funny. The* Jehovah’s Witnesses *would be mortally insulted by the comparison, though…)

Except—it’s not true. I’m sorry. Really. I am.

Tell you what, though—if you want to discuss the symbolism we use in Temple architecture, we can do that. As I have already mentioned, almost every aspect of a Temple has a theological/symbolic meaning, and if some architectural detail didn’t start out with such a meaning, it soon acquired one. Our practical souls get put quite away when we design our Temples.

Shoot, even the FOUNDATIONS of our Temples have a story, and a reason for being the way they are. If you are interested, I’ll tell you.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks, Hal.

I am wondering, do you know any other Mormon Bishops who have converted? What about Stake Presidents (who get a salary)? Or any other higher postions of honor? Thanks.

Eliza10,
Stake Presidents don’t get a salary. They serve gratis, as do bishops, as do Area Seventies, as do Relief Society presidents and Young Women presidents who put in many many hours per week in service.

 

[dianaiad]

I’ll reply to your observations later. Although I did a quick goodle search myself on the same words and going through the first 5 pages I saw only windowed churches? I’ll take another look; I might have missed some.

We have some pretty weird Catholic Churches, and probably some are windowless. But just as the beautiful traditional ones have deep theological reasons for being so, even the deviant strange ones have a theological reason for being so, even if its based on a wrong view of what Catholicism is - it would be based on someone’s theological view of what is Catholic (or “should” be).

Churches built from malls or gyms on a budget are just people working with what they have got, whether they are Baptist or LDS or other. I’m not taking about that, I am referring to deliberate designs. I’m interested in why people - and religions - design and build the way they do.

Are you working on a thesis of some sort?

If you are, if you truly think that there is a deep theological meaning to LDS church designs without windows, perhaps you should contact the church architectural department and simply ask them.

 

[Mudcat]

I mean, in the worship/sanctuary part? Because I visited my friend’s Mormon church, and I noticed there were no windows where the service was held. There was nice lighting, and nice soft paint colors, and lots of window-like places with nice pale green drapes, but no windows. On second thought there might have been some windows high up that let light in but you could not look out of. But I am not sure. The building itself had plenty of windows, but the worship room was on the “inside” and only opened to the hall. Later I saw a picture of Mormons worshipping in their church, and it looked the same. So I wondered if this was the typical style of the Mormon churches, and why. (Jehovah’s Witnesses always look like fortresses, with no windows and few doors, but that is so they have a safe place to bunker down in the last days, I understand.)

My wife is LDS, I have gone to church with her a number of times and have also been to 4 other LDS churches in our area for various functions. They don’t have windows. I’ve studied a good bit about LDS beliefs and have never seen anything why there aren’t windows.

Some have mentioned energy efficiency and I suppose that makes sense. Seems you are looking for something else, so I will speculate.
If the lack of windows has any other meaning than energy efficient, my guess would in how it relates to security and privacy. There are a lot of anti-mormons out there. I don’t mean people that just disagree with LDS beliefs, but some will hang out near their Temples and so forth waving signs that say pretty crude stuff, protesting them, etc…

Perhaps the lack of windows is a deterrent for folks who might get their kicks out of disrupting a worship service by sticking signs in the windows and so forth.

Another reason the room may not have windows is for safety purposes. An LDS sanctuary that didn’t have windows, would be a safe haven in harsh storms, tornadoes, etc…

 

[zerinus]

I am just guessing here, but from what some of our LDS friends have described here about the structures, the main worship space is in the center of the building, with other rooms surrounding it.

It varies. They are not all built like that. More often the worship area is at a corner, with one or two walls adjacent to the outside with windows in them. Also, the worship area is usually taller than the rest of the building, which means they can have windows to the outside at the upper parts of them.

Mormon Sunday activities involve a lot more than just the “service” part (unlike most other churches). That means that rooms have to be provided for all of those activities, such as classrooms, offices, library, cultural hall, kitchen, rest rooms, storerooms, cupboards etc. Architecturally this has to be accommodated somehow. Whichever way you do it, the “worship” area cannot have windows to the outside on all sides—unless it was built as a completely separate building.

 

[dianaiad]

Agreed, there is no theological reason for not having windows in the LDS chapel (the “sanctuary” part if you are looking for a fairly similar Catholic comparison). Also no sinister reason either. I am a Mormon Bishop converting to Catholicism. I was LDS for over 20 years.

Could you explain how that is possible?

 

[dianaiad]

Thanks, Hal.

I am wondering, do you know any other Mormon Bishops who have converted? What about Stake Presidents (who get a salary)? Or any other higher postions of honor? Thanks.

Stake Presidents get a salary?

Now that’s news to me.

 

[dianaiad]

Personally, I think that question is best suited for another thread, or probably taken into private conversation.

Back to your original question.

Considering the timeframe of the biggest boost in Mormon numbers and expansion.(I believe was in the 1960’s and 70’s) Alot of denominations were building churches, and ultimately couldn’t pay for the building and lost them. Architects wised up quickly and convinced many of them to design their structures in a way that if they did fall into financial trouble, the structure could easily be sold for another use, and not be limited to being used as a church.

You may have hit on one of the reasons our more modern buildings are built the way they are; no mortgages. Ever. It’s a very, very big no-no…if the church and the land aren’t paid for, it’s not dedicated. If the land isn’t paid for, the building isn’t built, and if the finances to build it aren’t available (not borrowed) then the building isn’t built. That is one of the principle uses of tithing funds. You aren’t going to see a Mormon church foreclosed on for defaulting on a loan. We own 'em all free and clear.

Of course, since that means that the funds for building a church come from the central church finances rather than local ‘building funds,’ so do the plans–it’s cheaper that way.

While that can make church buildings a little more homogenous all over the world than might be desired, it also provides places that would never be able to afford a really nice meeting house with churches that are every inch as nice as the wealthiest of neighborhoods.

Also, something to consider is where the particular structure is to be built. Most communities have zoning and building requirements. Meaning, the communites would require the structure to blend in with its surrounding neighbors. Most communities wouldn’t allow a huge gothic structure in the middle of bunch of Spanish Style terra cotta style buildings.

There is also the functionality of the structure.

I am just guessing here, but from what some of our LDS friends have described here about the structures, the main worship space is in the center of the building, with other rooms surrounding it. Could it be, that the idea of worship is “central” in their belief? The “center” of their faith?

I like that. It’s nice…

I look at it like the heart is the center of our body, and everything else grows from there. Just like in our Catholic church. The Tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved in the center of the Sancturay, or altar area.

Of course, there is also the most simple of exlpainations. Should you be gazing out the windows during services, or focus on the worship?

Just my thoughts. God Bless.

 

[twopekinguys]

Of course, since that means that the funds for building a church come from the central church finances rather than local ‘building funds,’ so do the plans–it’s cheaper that way.

While that can make church buildings a little more homogenous all over the world than might be desired, it also provides places that would never be able to afford a really nice meeting house with churches that are every inch as nice as the wealthiest of neighborhoods.

I like that. It’s nice…

Another aspect of this could be.

With a more unified look of the church structures around the world, it could make them a little easier to recognize for a person who may be unfamiliar with the location.

Kind of like McDonalds, no matter where you go in the world, you recognize the golden arches. I know that probably wasn’t the best example, but hey…it works…

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Hello Hal! Interesting observations. Some resonate with my own experience and some are a bit foreign to me.

Now an interesting question is as to whether the style of the LDS chapel is conducive to spirituality and prayer. No. It is a very business like building. You will not find people praying or kneeling prior to a LDS “sacrament” meeting. The chapel area will be too busy with people talking and discussing their callings and perhaps their lessons. There is no focal point or reminders of Christ or the Cross. Very plain, very office like.

I’ve noticed the pre-Sacrament meeting irreverence before and I think it depends mostly on the tastes of the particular bishopric. I’ve been in wards where the bishopric just doesn’t care, so naturally one would walk in a few minutes early to very loud talking, laughing, children munching on cheerios (if not running around the aisles) and I’ve been in other wards where the bishopric kept silence to such a maximized level that one could hear a pin drop in the Cultural Hall one room over. I once even had a former Marine Bishop who would approach the pulpit and over the speaker call individuals out by name asking them to take their conversations out to the foyer “where they belong”.

Now I wouldn’t say there is no focal point in an LDS chapel, just that the focal point is different than what one finds in a Catholic church. I always thought it was a bit odd that it was called “Sacrament Meeting” where the Sacrament took up only 10 minutes of the service, the altar was always to the side of the church (with the pulpit prominently in the center) and the meeting always culminated in speakers’ “talks”. Compare that to a Catholic Mass where the altar is in the center, the pulpit to the side, the readings and the homily prepare us for the climax of the service itself: the Eucharist.

But look at some of the Catholic churches of the 1970s and 1980’s. Hardly conducive either. But I think that error is recognised.

Oh definitely. My own Bishop’s cathedral stands as evidence (in my personal opinion).

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Uhmn…I used to go to conferences in that building. That second picture is a very carefully framed shot of the organ loft, Eliza. Very few churches/ meeting halls have windows in the organ pipes.

Quite odd that this has to even be said.

Really, I don’t know what she’s fishing for. She’s had current LDS as well as former LDS confirm that not only is there no conspiracy, but that there are indeed LDS chapels with windows. But oh no! Wait! She’s got another picture for us!!!

 

[dianaiad]

Another aspect of this could be.

With a more unified look of the church structures around the world, it could make them a little easier to recognize for a person who may be unfamiliar with the location.

Kind of like McDonalds, no matter where you go in the world, you recognize the golden arches. I know that probably wasn’t the best example, but hey…it works…

Don’t worry about it…I was thinking the same thing…and I LIKE the meeting houses!

 

[Prince_Hal]

Hal,
I suppose you noticed what you wanted to notice. The greeting that I observe that goes on is friends asking about my daughters with health issues, my son in the military, my daughter at college, our own health and welfare, and we ask about our friends in the same way. “Mankind was my business” happens in word and in deed. The bishop is a part of that (I know from personal experience.)

There is a simplicity to LDS buildings, indeed. When my high priests group kneels in prayer at the end of our meeting, we are kneeling on simple carpet in a simple room with simple walls and simple windows and simple chairs. Nothing ornate about it. But it is all heartfelt as we pray for ward members out of work, or with health issues, or who have lost loved ones.

Spirituality comes from within, not from without. The heart is the window to the soul. Within the soul is where we encounter the Savior and His healing power.

ParkerD you cannot assume that ex-Mormons all have an axe to grind and that we leave Mormonism because of some weakness that we have. I refer to your remark about me seeing only what I wanted to see. no, that was the way it was. And yes I was bishop and again as you point out the bishop does have an influence - so two nice backhands from yourself.

But I agree about the conversations as you mention them. I agree there is a lot of good will and visiting that happens - all very nice and showing concern. But no worship. Nothing that sets that place apart from the cultural hall or a community hall. Where is God amongst all this ? I agree the simplicity of Mormon chapels is not a condemnation - it all has to do with finances. But there is nothing that drags us upwards. The conversations are about us and we rationalize that this is looking after our neighbour. Where is God is the LDS sacrament meeting? Often an after thought - because He is just one of us - just one of the lads, and we can - in Mormon theology - be like Him one day. Things such as stained glass drag our minds up from the ordinary. Not essential of course, but a benefit.

Some Catholic chapels took Christ off the Cross and removed the Crucifix from the sanctuary. LDS removed the entire Cross. I know the given explanation, but the Cross is the symbol of Christ - best not to have that in a Mormon building.

But I am way off topic now. As to your topic about simplicity in the high priests quorum. You describe it as a chosen way of worship and a virtue. No it is all that is there. I do not decry simplicity, but I have lived and worked and served amongst the high priests. The greatest shame is that the religion they are part of does not have the power to lift them to God no more than the masons do or the local moose club. But Christ does and He reaches long and hard and fights for every soul. The absence of windows may not be a deciding point, but the absence of pointers and reminders and of Heaven crossing into Earth, the blurring and removal of the divide does.

I did not leave Mormonism through sin or weakness, but was dragged out by God. and yes I want that for my Mormon brothers and sisters too.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[dianaiad]

ParkerD you cannot assume that ex-Mormons all have an axe to grind and that we leave Mormonism because of some weakness that we have. I refer to your remark about me seeing only what I wanted to see. no, that was the way it was. And yes I was bishop and again as you point out the bishop does have an influence - so two nice backhands from yourself.

But I agree about the conversations as you mention them. I agree there is a lot of good will and visiting that happens - all very nice and showing concern. But no worship. Nothing that sets that place apart from the cultural hall or a community hall. Where is God amongst all this ? I agree the simplicity of Mormon chapels is not a condemnation - it all has to do with finances. But there is nothing that drags us upwards. The conversations are about us and we rationalize that this is looking after our neighbour. Where is God is the LDS sacrament meeting? Often an after thought - because He is just one of us - just one of the lads, and we can - in Mormon theology - be like Him one day. Things such as stained glass drag our minds up from the ordinary. Not essential of course, but a benefit.

Some Catholic chapels took Christ off the Cross and removed the Crucifix from the sanctuary. LDS removed the entire Cross. I know the given explanation, but the Cross is the symbol of Christ - best not to have that in a Mormon building.

But I am way off topic now. As to your topic about simplicity in the high priests quorum. You describe it as a chosen way of worship and a virtue. No it is all that is there. I do not decry simplicity, but I have lived and worked and served amongst the high priests. The greatest shame is that the religion they are part of does not have the power to lift them to God no more than the masons do or the local moose club. But Christ does and He reaches long and hard and fights for every soul. The absence of windows may not be a deciding point, but the absence of pointers and reminders and of Heaven crossing into Earth, the blurring and removal of the divide does.

I did not leave Mormonism through sin or weakness, but was dragged out by God. and yes I want that for my Mormon brothers and sisters too.

God bless,

Hal.

Hal, so far you have shown some rather interesting disdain for our lack of ornamentation in our meetinghouses, and have just now mentioned that things like stained glass and other symbols are important to 'lift [us] to God." The obvious point is that we have nothing like that, and there is something wrong with us because of that.

In fact, though you mention Temples, you are rather dismissive of them, as well; yet I’ve never been in a Temple yet that wasn’t full of paintings, stained glass, symbolism and things to think about. All you have mentioned is how much you appreciated being able to sit down in a quiet room. With all due respect, Hal, if that’s all you got out of a Temple experience, you weren’t paying attention to your surroundings.

One thing I would like to comment upon…something that has been bothering me. I hope you can clear this up. You claimed to be a Bishop currently converting to Catholicism. I hope that you are not. That is, if you have chosen to leave the LDS church and convert to another faith, please tell me that you are no longer a Bishop.

Diana

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD you cannot assume that ex-Mormons all have an axe to grind and that we leave Mormonism because of some weakness that we have. I refer to your remark about me seeing only what I wanted to see. no, that was the way it was. And yes I was bishop and again as you point out the bishop does have an influence - so two nice backhands from yourself.

But I agree about the conversations as you mention them. I agree there is a lot of good will and visiting that happens - all very nice and showing concern. But no worship. Nothing that sets that place apart from the cultural hall or a community hall. Where is God amongst all this ? I agree the simplicity of Mormon chapels is not a condemnation - it all has to do with finances. But there is nothing that drags us upwards. The conversations are about us and we rationalize that this is looking after our neighbour. Where is God is the LDS sacrament meeting? Often an after thought - because He is just one of us - just one of the lads, and we can - in Mormon theology - be like Him one day. Things such as stained glass drag our minds up from the ordinary. Not essential of course, but a benefit.

Some Catholic chapels took Christ off the Cross and removed the Crucifix from the sanctuary. LDS removed the entire Cross. I know the given explanation, but the Cross is the symbol of Christ - best not to have that in a Mormon building.

But I am way off topic now. As to your topic about simplicity in the high priests quorum. You describe it as a chosen way of worship and a virtue. No it is all that is there. I do not decry simplicity, but I have lived and worked and served amongst the high priests. The greatest shame is that the religion they are part of does not have the power to lift them to God no more than the masons do or the local moose club. But Christ does and He reaches long and hard and fights for every soul. The absence of windows may not be a deciding point, but the absence of pointers and reminders and of Heaven crossing into Earth, the blurring and removal of the divide does.

I did not leave Mormonism through sin or weakness, but was dragged out by God. and yes I want that for my Mormon brothers and sisters too.

God bless,

Hal.

Hal,
Thanks for the kind closing. I want you to understand that I have not assumed you left Mormonism “through sin or weakness”. If you were to have had the opportunity to visit the early Christians in their meetings, I think you would have found very simple surroundings. Yet they were being profoundly worshipful.

You have chosen something different, evidently several years ago, in your home country, then have moved since to the United States. I would be interested to know which country you came from, but if you’d rather not say, then that’s OK too. God bless you also, whatever direction your life takes. You needn’t worry about me, though.

(By the way, my comment that you chided was only to alleviate your use of the title you were once given as some claim to legitimacy. Once the mantle is gone, you (and I) are just like everyone else, and that is as it should be. Peace to you.)

 

[Prince_Hal]

Hal,
Thanks for the kind closing. I want you to understand that I have not assumed you left Mormonism “through sin or weakness”. If you were to have had the opportunity to visit the early Christians in their meetings, I think you would have found very simple surroundings. Yet they were being profoundly worshipful.

You have chosen something different, evidently several years ago, in your home country, then have moved since to the United States. I would be interested to know which country you came from, but if you’d rather not say, then that’s OK too. God bless you also, whatever direction your life takes. You needn’t worry about me, though.

(By the way, my comment that you chided was only to alleviate your use of the title you were once given as some claim to legitimacy. Once the mantle is gone, you (and I) are just like everyone else, and that is as it should be. Peace to you.)

parkerd. Thank you. You concern regarding the use of the title of bishop is very understandable. By it I meant simply that I had been well immersed in LDS doctrine and had indeed spent many years studying the faith and being myself fully immersed and part of things. I will be careful in my phraseology ongoing. I thank you for your correction. I came from England. My purpose often on these forums is to help people understand how things really are in Mormonism , not the often false and silly fables that are often quoted. You need to be accurate in all things and then give opinion.

Thank you, your brother in Christ,

Hal