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Zundrah
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That’s right, that’s what I said to him but he just keeps saying that the catholic church broke the covenant any way…But the mormons keep on saying this but they have no evidence.
MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?
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ParkerD
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Zundrah and Matt,
If the word “it” in Matthew 16:18 were referring back to the word “church” rather than the word “rock”, then I would respond that the word “church” refers to the group of people or “collective body of believers” who would be joining the organization that the apostles would be continuing to establish and carry on. I think, however, that the word “it” is referring back to the word “rock,” and as I had already written in an earlier post, I think Peter would teach that that word “rock” was referring to Christ, as Peter explains in a similar way when he quotes the Old Testament about the “chief corner stone” in his epistle, 1 Peter 2:6-8.
If the word “church” means the collective body of believers, then the way this group of believers prevails against the gates of hell is by (1) relying on Christ who is the chief corner stone of their faith and the author of their Salvation, and by (2) getting the same witness that Jesus is indeed the promised Christ, which witness Peter had expressed in verse 17.
Christ also will hold the keys to hell and open the gates of hell at the end of the Millenium, so He will prevail against the gates of hell and the powers of darkness, and let the prisoners out of their prison because they will finally bow the knee and confess (willingly without compulsion) that He is their Savior also. Satan will have been vanquished, and Christ will have been victorious as He promised.
Of course there are no “historical claims” from books of that time period, other than the fact that the apostles wrote in their epistles trying to keep the followers of the church consistent in doctrinal purity, and expressed frustration and concern about some who were going astray or leading others astray. The changes were gradual, not as though someone turned out the lights all of a sudden. But the people doing the “writing” were the same people who were involved to some extent in the changes, so they either wouldn’t see it or wouldn’t acknowledge it and write about it.
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peary
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I was told that those who remained in the “catholic” church are the true apostates, and so are the protestants who have rejected the LDS church.
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ParkerD
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Peary,
I hope if you have read this thread that you have understood that I for one strongly disagree with what you “were told.”
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RebeccaJ
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Parker, you misunderstand if you think I am out for a personal win using personal interpretation of scripture. Quite the contrary, it is the personal interpretation of scripture that has deceived you.
If you had a desire to read the Bible without the personal interpretations of Joseph Smith, you would easily see that the authority to interpret Scripture is found in the Church that Jesus established and leads. So no, it is not what I make of it, it is what God’s Church makes of it.
You can choose to follow truth, or not. It is entirely up to you.
Have a nice day.
J
josie_L
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But every great historical event has a build up just has every historical event as a date which places it in a specific time and place. If the “great” apostasy had occurred would we not have a more precise timing of this event on the timeline of history (I mean we have a pretty precise dating of the Reformation)? And furthermore, why wasn’t this information relayed to Joseph Smith (as to when this apostasy had occurred)?
P.S. The above speaks of the events leading into WW1, but WW1 began as of the day that war was declared.
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ricko
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Dear Parker,
Shame on you again. Rebecca does win but it’s not a trival game as you make it out to be. It’s not I’m right and your wrong type of thing. Rebecca is guided by the Holy Spirit and is therefore very knowledgable as she had been on both sides of the fence. She never takes credit for her posts but instead gives credit to Jesus and the Catholic Church which is Jesus. For all the times you have boasted very loudly that you (and you alone.implied) are led by the Holy Spirit, Rebecca has remained silent. Not boasting but stating the Truth as she is guided by the Holy Spirit. We are blessed to have her on the side of Jesus and the Church.
Shame on you again. Rebecca does win but it’s not a trival game as you make it out to be. It’s not I’m right and your wrong type of thing. Rebecca is guided by the Holy Spirit and is therefore very knowledgable as she had been on both sides of the fence. She never takes credit for her posts but instead gives credit to Jesus and the Catholic Church which is Jesus. For all the times you have boasted very loudly that you (and you alone.implied) are led by the Holy Spirit, Rebecca has remained silent. Not boasting but stating the Truth as she is guided by the Holy Spirit. We are blessed to have her on the side of Jesus and the Church.
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ParkerD
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Hi, Rick O,
If a person decides they are right, is living a good life and all, then as far as I’m concerned they have exactly what they want and they will bring all their reasoning powers to substantiate that they are precisely right. Furthermore, they will be blessed for every good thing they are doing in their life, as will Rebecca J.
I didn’t feel the need to take verses in the Bible and discuss them in her particular case.
I have responded to the infant baptism thread that someone posted. If you want to discuss that as a “for example”, you could reply there and we could discuss that particular point of doctrine.
Have a nice day.
If a person decides they are right, is living a good life and all, then as far as I’m concerned they have exactly what they want and they will bring all their reasoning powers to substantiate that they are precisely right. Furthermore, they will be blessed for every good thing they are doing in their life, as will Rebecca J.
I didn’t feel the need to take verses in the Bible and discuss them in her particular case.
I have responded to the infant baptism thread that someone posted. If you want to discuss that as a “for example”, you could reply there and we could discuss that particular point of doctrine.
Have a nice day.
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RebeccaJ
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Zundrah
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Amen peary! I was a protestant!
Mormons commit blasphemy and heresy! Try looking up their beliefs and you will have a real shock!
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Chris-WA
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You’re patronzing me.
I don’t think so, and this is a far cry from the way your prophets and apostles have described “the Great Apostacy” in their general conference talks. Let’s not mince words, shall we? The LDS Church believes and teaches that after the death of the Apostles, the church (which means the Christians) degenerated so terribly and turned so against God and the truth that it lost all authority.
Yes we all have free agency. Individuals can all choose whatever path they want. But you must think that the validity of the Church depends on the choices of the individual. and here is where we disagree. The Church is the Bride of Christ. He shed His life so she would live. Whether or not the Church keeps its authority does not depend on the conduct of individuals, even individual popes. It’s the office where the authority lies, not the person. The Church, as the living Bride of Christ, was established once and for all. Christ promissed His Bride the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you want to tell me that God removed the authority from the Church, you better be able to definitively show it.
What does scripture tells us? What did the Apostles do? They established churches throughout the known world and passed authority through the office of bishop. Don’t you think they knew what would happen? Of course they did! You make it sound like Christ gave them an impossible mission. You make it sound like they had no idea what they were doing, as if they were stumbling around in the dark. I think they knew exactly what they were doing. They were entrusted by Christ with His Bride, and despite tremendous persecution the Church not only survived but grew and thrived. It has outlasted every kingdom, nation, war, catastrophe, scandal, and whatever else Satan could throw at it.
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Chris-WA
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Does the Church not have the authority to clearly define its beliefs? Christ didn’t hand Peter a manual of every teaching. Of course there would be divisions and disagreements. There was never any guarantee that everyone in the church is going to agree on everything all the time. Christ certainly never said so. As a matter of necessity the Church has to meet, discuss, and clarify its universal doctrine so all can be taught the same thing. I see this as a strength, not a problem as you do. Ultimately, regardless of the discussion, the pope still has the final word. The buck still stops with one person, just like it did with Peter.
If you’re going to make such a bold sweeping statement like this, you’re going to have to demonstrate proof of specific changes in doctrines and ordinances. I haven’t ever seen an LDS that can clearly do this. They all just assume things must have changed because Catholic doctrines are different from LDS doctrines. Show me specifics, and we can discuss them one by one. Details matter in this case.
No, the Reformation was not an attempt to go back to what the bible taught. Are you aware that Martin Luther attempted to get rid of several books from the bible because he didn’t agree with some of their teachings? Had he succeeded, we would be missing a lot of scripture today.
Because the authority of the church does not depend on the conduct of individuals within the church. The authority lies in the office of bishop, regardless of who is in that office. Even Christ taught that those priests who sat in the chair of Moses still had their authority, even though they didn’t practice what they preached. Individuals are held responsible for their own conduct, but the Church as the Bride of Christ forever has the protection of the Holy Spirit.
My friend, the Church existed long before the New Testament did. There wasn’t even a New Testament settled upon until the late 300’s. Those biblical teachings you cling to only exist because the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, had to have a council to decide which writings were inspired by God and which were not. That was not done for several hundred years after the death of the Apostles, long after Mormons claim the Great Apostacy was complete.
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Chris-WA
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Sorry, but if you’re implying that the Lost White Brother is Jesus Christ, than you are making an incredible stretch. You’re going to have to do a lot better than that.
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Zundrah
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Go Chris-WA ! :dancing:
I’m rooting for you! ::yeah_me:
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zaffiroborant
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Did you know that Apostle Bruce Mcckonie called Song of Solomon
“biblical trash” while Martin Luther called it the High Song they also had diametrically opposing views on James.
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Zundrah
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Did you know that Luther did get what he wanted? That’s why there are protestant bibles. They are made under the Church of England and they have a lot less books than your catholic bible.
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dianaiad
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Ah, but McConkie didn’t try to eliminate the Song of Songs from the canon, did he? Whereas Luther tried his best to eliminate those writings he disapproved of.
I do think that those who attempt to cast the Song of Songs as a metaphor of God and the Church are rather missing the point–and the verse.
On the other hand, I am aware of McConkie’s opinion…and disagree with it. The Song of Songs, I believe, is inspired writing. After all, only an inspired writer "sick with love,’ could write:
*10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.
11 His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven.
12 His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set.
13 His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh.
14 His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires.
15 His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars.
16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.
*
Goodness, that is one fine sounding man.
Or this:
8 There are threescore queens, and fourscore concubines, and virgins without number.
9 My dove, my undefiled is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bare her. The daughters saw her, and blessed her; yea, the queens and the concubines, and they praised her.
10 ¶ Who is she that looketh forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners?
Helen needs to watch out for her reputation.
1 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince’s daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman.
2 Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.
3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.
You have to admit, that’s inspired…
Though, if I were a woman, I would have stop and say ‘hmmnn.’’ at the following:
..6 How fair and how pleasant art thou, O love, for delights!
7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.
8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;
9 And the roof of thy mouth like the best wine for my beloved, that goeth down sweetly, causing the lips of those that are asleep to speak.
“clusters of grapes?”
*8 ¶ We have a little sister, and she hath no breasts: what shall we do for our sister in the day when she shall be spoken for?
9 If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver: and if she be a door, we will inclose her with boards of cedar.
10 I am a wall, and my breasts like towers: then was I in his eyes as one that found favour.
*
That’s better…
The Song of Solomon is about, I believe, Solomon’s favorite pastime, written from the POV of all participants. It glorifies [marital] love in all its forms, and when read in the proper spirit, can be very enlightening.
It is beautiful, and inspired—but it is what it is.
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Zundrah
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I’m glad he didn’t kick out revelation, but why did he do it though?
I have never read these books. England is covered with all the protestant churches denominations but there are rarely any catholic churches anywhere. So I have never come across theses books in a bible but I would love to read them!
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Jerusha
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Those books are available at usccb.org/nab/bible/ They are really quite good, compared to the ones I refuse to talk about any more. 
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