MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?

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Ah, but McConkie didn’t try to eliminate the Song of Songs from the canon, did he? Whereas Luther tried his best to eliminate those writings he disapproved of.
Has any apostle or prophet come out against what Mcconkie said, defending the Song of Solomon?
 
You’re patronizing me.

I don’t think so, and this is a far cry from the way your prophets and apostles have described “the Great Apostacy” in their general conference talks. Let’s not mince words, shall we? The LDS Church believes and teaches that after the death of the Apostles, the church (which means the Christians) degenerated so terribly and turned so against God and the truth that it lost all authority.

Yes we all have free agency. Individuals can all choose whatever path they want. But you must think that the validity of the Church depends on the choices of the individual. and here is where we disagree. The Church is the Bride of Christ. He shed His life so she would live. Whether or not the Church keeps its authority does not depend on the conduct of individuals, even individual popes. It’s the office where the authority lies, not the person. The Church, as the living Bride of Christ, was established once and for all. Christ promissed His Bride the guidance of the Holy Spirit. If you want to tell me that God removed the authority from the Church, you better be able to definitively show it.

What does scripture tells us? What did the Apostles do? They established churches throughout the known world and passed authority through the office of bishop. Don’t you think they knew what would happen? Of course they did! You make it sound like Christ gave them an impossible mission. You make it sound like they had no idea what they were doing, as if they were stumbling around in the dark. I think they knew exactly what they were doing. They were entrusted by Christ with His Bride, and despite tremendous persecution the Church not only survived but grew and thrived. It has outlasted every kingdom, nation, war, catastrophe, scandal, and whatever else Satan could throw at it.

cont…
Hi, Chris–WA,
If you really want to become knowledgeable about the scriptural LDS teaching about what has come to be called the “apostasy”, then you could spend some time reading in the Book of Mormon, Jacob chapter 5 where there is an allegory about Christ’s church on earth and how its roots are “good” even when its “branches” have “all sorts of fruit.”

If you have read or heard talks that implied “degenerated so terribly and turned so against God and the truth” then I would like to have proof of that, because I haven’t. The LDS church consistently teaches that other churches do much good in the world. There would be extreme inconsistency to use the language you have implied.

The apostles consistently warned the saints to not “endure false doctrine” or listen to “teachers having itching ears.” The growth of the church presented a struggle to keep the members from following traditions brought in by people who joined who wanted to make “slight” changes or perhaps disagreed with key doctrines such as whether the law of Moses was still in effect.
 
…refuse to talk about? Which ones do you mean and why wouldn’t you want to mention them? 🤷
I refuse to discuss Mormonism unless they respectfully ask questions about Catholicism. That is why I have the Mormon participants here on “ignore.” I am tired of repeatedly telling them how I see things, and them repeatedly ignoring me. I would rather deal with them as human beings, than with the label “Mormon.”
 
Does the Church not have the authority to clearly define its beliefs? Christ didn’t hand Peter a manual of every teaching. Of course there would be divisions and disagreements. There was never any guarantee that everyone in the church is going to agree on everything all the time. Christ certainly never said so. As a matter of necessity the Church has to meet, discuss, and clarify its universal doctrine so all can be taught the same thing. I see this as a strength, not a problem as you do. Ultimately, regardless of the discussion, the pope still has the final word. The buck still stops with one person, just like it did with Peter.

If you’re going to make such a bold sweeping statement like this, you’re going to have to demonstrate proof of specific changes in doctrines and ordinances. I haven’t ever seen an LDS that can clearly do this. They all just assume things must have changed because Catholic doctrines are different from LDS doctrines. Show me specifics, and we can discuss them one by one. Details matter in this case.

No, the Reformation was not an attempt to go back to what the bible taught. Are you aware that Martin Luther attempted to get rid of several books from the bible because he didn’t agree with some of their teachings? Had he succeeded, we would be missing a lot of scripture today.

Because the authority of the church does not depend on the conduct of individuals within the church. The authority lies in the office of bishop, regardless of who is in that office. Even Christ taught that those priests who sat in the chair of Moses still had their authority, even though they didn’t practice what they preached. Individuals are held responsible for their own conduct, but the Church as the Bride of Christ forever has the protection of the Holy Spirit.

My friend, the Church existed long before the New Testament did. There wasn’t even a New Testament settled upon until the late 300’s. Those biblical teachings you cling to only exist because the Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, had to have a council to decide which writings were inspired by God and which were not. That was not done for several hundred years after the death of the Apostles, long after Mormons claim the Great Apostacy was complete.
Chris-WA,
For a specific doctrinal discussion (an example) that has changed, you could go to the thread about the “baptism of infants” that was started by someone several days ago. I have participated there, in the interest of not taking this particular thread off on a tangent.

You say above that “the pope has the final word”, but earlier you had said that a pope could be totally mistaken. I think those two beliefs about the pope are inconsistent with the intent Christ had in mind when He ordained twelve apostles and commissioned them to go into all the world with the pure doctrine of the gospel as He had taught it.

How could the church have the “protection of the Holy Spirit” unless the people in it had the full and complete companionship of the Holy Spirit, including the pope? The Holy Spirit does not force belief.
 
I have never read these books. England is covered with all the protestant churches denominations but there are rarely any catholic churches anywhere.
Thats not true at all. I live in London and there are five or six within a short drive from my house.
 
If you’re going to make such a bold sweeping statement like this, you’re going to have to demonstrate proof of specific changes in doctrines and ordinances. I haven’t ever seen an LDS that can clearly do this. They all just assume things must have changed because Catholic doctrines are different from LDS doctrines. Show me specifics, and we can discuss them one by one. Details matter in this case.
This is all mormonism has left of their belief in the ‘Great Apostasy’. They don’t believe what the true historical church which Christ started believes, so it must have changed. On the other hand the teaching of the real presences of Christ in the Eucharist goes back to Christ himself which Protestants and their derivatives reject.
 
This is all mormonism has left of their belief in the ‘Great Apostasy’. They don’t believe what the true historical church which Christ started believes, so it must have changed. On the other hand the teaching of the real presences of Christ in the Eucharist goes back to Christ himself which Protestants and their derivatives reject.
Hi, Stephen,
The LDS church absolutely does “believe what the true historical church which Christ started believes.”
 
You can’t claim to be the Church if someone else claims to be the Church. It hurts your credibility. That’s what churches and denominations, and sects and groups, within various religious and socities fight.
I don’t understand why this dispute is going on. So much effort, such heat wih no light. Mormons are simply not Christians, no matter how much they claim to be. We might as well be disputing with pagans of any other type such as wiccans who also believe in many gods.
 
Ah, but your logic is faulty in that this obviously did not happen to the early Christians, did it? Their numbers went consistently up, not down. In fact, about the only example of persecution that actually did what it was intended to do (that is, eliminate the ‘problem’) was what Innocent III did to the Albigensians. It took some doing (and the complete elimination of the entire city including anybody who lived next to, knew, bought from, sold to, or even waved to in passing, an Albegensian) but they managed to put paid to that one. I guess the Christians took the persecution lesson and perfected it pretty thoroughly.

The one thing that those who went after the Albegensians did learn was that the sort of inventive tortures inflicted upon earlier Christian martyrs was unwise; better just to kill 'em and get it over with.

Even today Christians point to the early martyrs with pride…the thought that they would submit to the sort of horrors inflicted upon them for nothing is unacceptable. Christianity MUST then, be true; otherwise there is no point to any of it, at all. The opposite side of that coin, of course, is that equally horrific things done to those with whose religious views one disagrees has got to be attributed to something else, or downplayed in some way, or turned around so as to seem like just retribution; something to take the ‘martyr’ out of the martyrdom; because if persecution can happen to people who are wrong in their beliefs, then persecution simply is horror without glory no matter who suffers it.

Oh, as to your point about the Jews? I have to hand it to you; that’s one of the slickest examples of Godwin’s law I’ve seen. However, your point regarding them is incorrect for two reasons: first, since Jews do not go after converts; it would be very much out of character for them to use this as a proselyting tool. Second, they are still here; they have survived as a people, and it might even be argued that six million of them bought their homeland with their lives. Can you honestly say that, without the Holocaust, Israel would exist?

But since you bring up the Jews, I think, rather than support your point, their existence supports mine; Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years. They have been separated out as a people, excluded from the mainstream, persecuted, used as scapegoats…everything that could possibly be done to make them a separate and ‘inferior’ people WAS done. Because of this, because of their own beliefs and need to band together for protection and fellowship (and the fact that everybody else forced them together away from mainstream society) they have endured. They’ve been tempered, hardened, and forged into a people that have a core of being that no other group in the world has.

But you know something? Two generations of acceptance into US society may do what thousands of years of persecution did not do. Thousands of Jews nowadays may pay lip service to their religion, and make wry comments about their background, and even be proud of it—even as they eat the ham sandwich and open their stores on Saturdays. They will have the bris, the bar mitzva…and Christmas day. They will leave off the yarmulke, the prayer shawl, and never learn Hebrew…that’s very sad.

Y’know, I read of an incident where 300 odd Christians were ranged around a fire pit and told that if they did not worship Ceasar as a god, that they would be thrown into the fire. Every one of them then voluntarily jumped into the pit, refusing to so worship. (I have no idea whether this is a true story or not.)

So they became martyrs. Now if the people around them had simply allowed those people to worship as they wanted to, been accepted into the society within which they dwelt, it’s almost a surety that half of them would eventually have forsaken their faith and gone back to the old ways. As it is, none of them did, and those Christians who heard of their sacrifice were bolstered in their beliefs; surely only Satan himself would do stuff like this to other people, and thus only the righteous could possibly be the targets of it.

…and so, the church grew. You would say 'in spite of…" I think…in large part ‘because of’ that persecution.
And how would you know they’re numbers were constantly up? Are you privy to some information that I’m not. I’m trying to state that in the first century a lot of Christians were put to death (there was intense persecution) so their numbers at first were probably not as high as they would have been if these deaths had not occurred, however, eventually with less persecution as time went by those numbers would regulate themselves. I do believe that persecution in many instances brought visibility for the fledgling community but I think it took time for it to take effect. Here’s what I found that pretty much deals with the topic we are discussing:

In the same vein, does persecution always cause church growth? Not always. In 1993, I did considerable research on the history of the Church in Russia and, to my surprise, I learned that the membership of the Evangelical Christian Baptists (registered and unregistered) in the Soviet Union had dropped from approximately 1,000,000 in 1926 to just under 249,000 in 1993. In Albania, the Church was virtually wiped out during the rule of Enver Hoxha. Only a dozen or so Christians were found to have survived Albania’s attempt to create a completely atheistic state when religious liberty was restored a decade ago. The Communists almost succeeded. It would be naïve to say, then, that persecution always leads to church growth.
 
And how would you know they’re numbers were constantly up? Are you privy to some information that I’m not.
Their numbers were constantly up because I can count. Three hundred years from the birth of Christ, Constantine pretty much settled the issue of Christianity in the Roman Empire, and it only grew from there.It is accepted by most experts that there were about a million Christians at the end of the first century (pretty good growing…though that means that they comprised less than 1% of the population) and by the third century (Constantine’s time) there were something like 62,000,000 Christians, or over 10% of the population of the Roman Empire. Now THAT’S good growing. After that, of course, it became the official government religion and all bets were off.

I submit that, quite obviously, the intense persecution of the Christians did very little to curb growth, and in fact encouraged it; the one thing about persecution is that in order to persecute something, you have to be aware of its existence. Once one is aware of something, curiosity tends to sneak in–and people who learned about it liked it–and joined it. The risk of doing so only served to validate it. Human nature.

That doesn’t make persecution a good thing. Quite the opposite; for because of this need to see one’s own persecution as validation for one’s own beliefs, then persecution of OTHER peoples has to be poo-pooed…torture a Christian for being a Christian? Why, that’s persecution and the Christian dies a martyr; his faith is validated. Torture a priestess of Diana for being true to her beliefs? Why, she is a pagan and deserved it; that’s not persecution, that’s justice!

Discriminate against a Catholic and call her an idol worshiper? Why, that’s persecution and unjust! Should a Muslim terrorist shoot a Christian in the streets…that’s persecution in it’s purest form.

However…send a mob of 200 men in black face to murder a man in jail because they don’t like the fact that he is the leader of the Mormons? Why, he was a con man and deserved it, and he had the nerve to defend himself by shooting back. That’s justice. He brought it on himself. He deserved it…that’s not persecution.

Kick a Catholic out of his home and make him sell it at an extreme loss (or just abandon it altogether) under an order of ‘extermination’ making it illegal for him to live in a place under pain of getting shot? Why, that’s the rankest persecution. If it’s a Mormon, or someone you disagree with, though–that’s different. It’s somehow the Mormon’s fault.

Or, to take the thing and turn it around (I AM a Mormon, after all, and can thus be biased in this) Governor Bogg’s Extermination Order (don’t look at me, he named it, I didn’t.) was persecution–but it did not prove that Mormonism is true. It just proved that persecutors persecute. They do it because they don’t like difference, and think that they have a right to punish the different.
I’m trying to state that in the first century a lot of Christians were put to death (there was intense persecution) so their numbers at first were probably not as high as they would have been if these deaths had not occurred, however, eventually with less persecution as time went by those numbers would regulate themselves.
Except of course a growth from one million to 62 million was never matched, percentage wise, ever again in the history of the church, even when the government was forcibly making people convert TO Christianity. In fact, it grew faster UNDER that intense persecution that it has since. Do the math: 100 AD saw 1 million Christians. 300 AD saw 62 million Christians. That means what…that every two hundred years the Christian population multiplied 62 times. If that growth rate continued, we would have had three BILLION Christians at the beginning of the 6th century…and we only have 2.1 billion Christians on the planet at the moment. I’m not very good at math, so please excuse me, but lessee…2.1 billion from 62 million in 1700 years… that’s a growth rate of about 1.2 million Christians a year, averaging it out. However, the rate of Christian population increase over that two hundred years between 100 and 300 AD? That’s 31 million converts a year. As bad as my math is, it would be difficult to argue that persecution inhibited growth and that acceptance encouraged it.
I do believe that persecution in many instances brought visibility for the fledgling community but I think it took time for it to take effect. Here’s what I found that pretty much deals with the topic we are discussing:

In the same vein, does persecution always cause church growth? Not always. In 1993, I did considerable research on the history of the Church in Russia and, to my surprise, I learned that the membership of the Evangelical Christian Baptists (registered and unregistered) in the Soviet Union had dropped from approximately 1,000,000 in 1926 to just under 249,000 in 1993. In Albania, the Church was virtually wiped out during the rule of Enver Hoxha. Only a dozen or so Christians were found to have survived Albania’s attempt to create a completely atheistic state when religious liberty was restored a decade ago. The Communists almost succeeded. It would be naïve to say, then, that persecution always leads to church growth.
The Communists handled it differently. They didn’t persecute the way the early Christians were. They co-opted, instead. They took the children and taught them from infancy that there was no god but the state; few could fight that: not persecution for believing, but rewards for not. Even so, there are survivors, and that’s pretty miraculous.
 
Hi, Stephen,
The LDS church absolutely does “believe what the true historical church which Christ started believes.”
Have you read the writings of the Early Church Fathers? (Easily available on line). Some of these knew the Apostle John and taught what they were taught. Their writings are very ‘Catholic’ in nature, I can discern no specific LDS beliefs there at all. These writings are one of the reasons for theologians (some originally very anti-Catholic) converting to Catholicism. See if you can find any of your teachings there.

mormonproblems.blogspot.com/
 
Their numbers were constantly up because I can count. Three hundred years from the birth of Christ, Constantine pretty much settled the issue of Christianity in the Roman Empire, and it only grew from there.It is accepted by most experts that there were about a million Christians at the end of the first century (pretty good growing…though that means that they comprised less than 1% of the population) and by the third century (Constantine’s time) there were something like 62,000,000 Christians, or over 10% of the population of the Roman Empire. Now THAT’S good growing. After that, of course, it became the official government religion and all bets were off.

I submit that, quite obviously, the intense persecution of the Christians did very little to curb growth, and in fact encouraged it; the one thing about persecution is that in order to persecute something, you have to be aware of its existence. Once one is aware of something, curiosity tends to sneak in–and people who learned about it liked it–and joined it. The risk of doing so only served to validate it. Human nature.

That doesn’t make persecution a good thing. Quite the opposite; for because of this need to see one’s own persecution as validation for one’s own beliefs, then persecution of OTHER peoples has to be poo-pooed…torture a Christian for being a Christian? Why, that’s persecution and the Christian dies a martyr; his faith is validated. Torture a priestess of Diana for being true to her beliefs? Why, she is a pagan and deserved it; that’s not persecution, that’s justice!

Discriminate against a Catholic and call her an idol worshiper? Why, that’s persecution and unjust! Should a Muslim terrorist shoot a Christian in the streets…that’s persecution in it’s purest form.

However…send a mob of 200 men in black face to murder a man in jail because they don’t like the fact that he is the leader of the Mormons? Why, he was a con man and deserved it, and he had the nerve to defend himself by shooting back. That’s justice. He brought it on himself. He deserved it…that’s not persecution.

Kick a Catholic out of his home and make him sell it at an extreme loss (or just abandon it altogether) under an order of ‘extermination’ making it illegal for him to live in a place under pain of getting shot? Why, that’s the rankest persecution. If it’s a Mormon, or someone you disagree with, though–that’s different. It’s somehow the Mormon’s fault.

Or, to take the thing and turn it around (I AM a Mormon, after all, and can thus be biased in this) Governor Bogg’s Extermination Order (don’t look at me, he named it, I didn’t.) was persecution–but it did not prove that Mormonism is true. It just proved that persecutors persecute. They do it because they don’t like difference, and think that they have a right to punish the different.

Except of course a growth from one million to 62 million was never matched, percentage wise, ever again in the history of the church, even when the government was forcibly making people convert TO Christianity. In fact, it grew faster UNDER that intense persecution that it has since. Do the math: 100 AD saw 1 million Christians. 300 AD saw 62 million Christians. That means what…that every two hundred years the Christian population multiplied 62 times. If that growth rate continued, we would have had three BILLION Christians at the beginning of the 6th century…and we only have 2.1 billion Christians on the planet at the moment. I’m not very good at math, so please excuse me, but lessee…2.1 billion from 62 million in 1700 years… that’s a growth rate of about 1.2 million Christians a year, averaging it out. However, the rate of Christian population increase over that two hundred years between 100 and 300 AD? That’s 31 million converts a year. As bad as my math is, it would be difficult to argue that persecution inhibited growth and that acceptance encouraged it.

The Communists handled it differently. They didn’t persecute the way the early Christians were. They co-opted, instead. They took the children and taught them from infancy that there was no god but the state; few could fight that: not persecution for believing, but rewards for not. Even so, there are survivors, and that’s pretty miraculous.
Where did you get your statistical figures because the numbers I got (cited from a book on google) indicates that the population of the Roman Empire by the opening of the 4th century was 50 to 60 million with Christians comprising 3.5 to 6 million of the general population?

books.google.ca/books?id=Qn41BcoNL9IC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=statistical+figures+for+Christians+in+the+1st+century&source=bl&ots=PCKQTK4-bA&sig=JvivmmXqbNVLtK_vTnojwRTvLEo&hl=en&ei=LSFESv6HKJaMtgf_0eWuAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

Furthermore, Communists did persecute Christians (you ever heard of reeducation camps and the gulags).
 
The Communists handled it differently. They didn’t persecute the way the early Christians were. They co-opted, instead. They took the children and taught them from infancy that there was no god but the state; few could fight that: not persecution for believing, but rewards for not. Even so, there are survivors, and that’s pretty miraculous.
Hi Diana, you should read up on the Russian Orthodox and what they endured under communism.

Also, the Armenian Genocide (not communist, but Ottoman (Muslim) against Armenian Christians).

And going on today, the Christians in Iraq, Myanmar, and in parts of India are suffering greatly.
 
Hello again RebeccaJ! 👋
Hi Diana, you should read up on the Russian Orthodox and what they endured under communism.
I haven’t read the article but I knew people (in Finland) who experienced the persecution in Russia first hand and also through second hand accounts of the horrible autrocities that Russian Orthodox suffered under communist rule. I have a small book by a Russian Orthodox priest who was imprisoned in one of the gulags. This wasn’t just a passive “brainwashing” of the youth, but a concerted and physical attack on Christians, particularly Christian Orthodox. Another unfortunate consequence of the communist regime in Russia, was that it turned the Church in to a political instrument, often replacing priest and bishops who were true, sincere, and loyal to the Church (by tossing them in to prison), with ones who were loyal to the State.

A very, very sad chapter in Christian history. 😦

Kind Regards,
Finrock
 
Hi Diana, you should read up on the Russian Orthodox and what they endured under communism.

Also, the Armenian Genocide (not communist, but Ottoman (Muslim) against Armenian Christians).

And going on today, the Christians in Iraq, Myanmar, and in parts of India are suffering greatly.
Nor am I down playing that, Rebecca. My point is that persecution is wrong no matter who does it or who it’s aimed at, and that it is counterproductive; once one begins to try eliminating a belief system by persecuting it, there are only two possible consequences that history shows us: either you kill EVERYBODY off, or you actually cause it to grow.

Yes, Christians suffered under communism…and suffered greatly. My point is that the Communists didn’t use the sort of persecution the ancients did. They were…better…at it. Even so, if you don’t think that the Russian (and Eastern) Orthodox churches didn’t come out of the experience strong and growing, then you haven’t tried to be a MORMON in Russia! 😉

Nor has the horrific persecution of Christians elsewhere in the world caused membership in the various Christian denominations to go down. Religious people respond oddly to terrorist tactics–remember Aesop’s fable about the sun, the cold north wind, and the bet they had over who could get the traveler to remove his cloak?

Same sort of thing.
 
…I have not been convinced that this “great apostasy” ever took place. 😦
Where is there any evidence or even some kind of back up for it?
 
Where did you get your statistical figures because the numbers I got (cited from a book on google) indicates that the population of the Roman Empire by the opening of the 4th century was 50 to 60 million with Christians comprising 3.5 to 6 million of the general population?

books.google.ca/books?id=Qn41BcoNL9IC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=statistical+figures+for+Christians+in+the+1st+century&source=bl&ots=PCKQTK4-bA&sig=JvivmmXqbNVLtK_vTnojwRTvLEo&hl=en&ei=LSFESv6HKJaMtgf_0eWuAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5

Furthermore, Communists did persecute Christians (you ever heard of reeducation camps and the gulags).
I see the book you are talking about. My own source may well have been incorrect. It was a Catholic article (I try to use only Catholic sources when I am in here) and I think it confused the total population of the Roman Empire at the beginning of the third century for the number of Christians. I thought it was a bit too high.

Thank you for sending me on the hunt; I found this, “The Rise of Christianity” by Rodney Stark, which treats the growth of Christianity at that time directly. (Thank you, Rodney…)
According to him, Christianity grew at 40% per decade during those first three centuries. That means that even including the deaths from persecution the church was expanding by almost half its size every ten years.

True, Stark is the guy who predicted that Mormonism would be a true “world religion” by 1080 due to its influence and growth, but that does not invalidate, even to those to whom that idea is anathema, his figures on early Christianity. He is not himself, after all, LDS. While he examines us under an intense sociological microscope, it’s as if he were looking at a fascinatingly intelligent mouse in a maze; he’s interested in describing, but not joining, us. 😉

He is very careful, in fact, to categorize Mormons (well, yeah, early Christians too…) as a ‘cult’ because it was a ‘new religion,’ and not simply a schismatic sect. He still classes Mormonism as a cult today…and one of the reasons he does so is because according to his definition of ‘cult,’ Mormons are better educated as a rule than mainstream Christians.

Huh? I have GOT to get this book. That’s the most backhanded compliment I have ever seen.

OK, back to the 40% growth rate. Stark has many opinions about why this was; he mentions social networking, intense evangelism, --and the persecution/hostility that it faced; the ‘nothing cements an opinion like opposition to it’ idea.

However, as soon as Constantine got into power the church first expanded like crazy (well, forced conversions were then the norm) and then slowed way down. Why? One reason was that the persecution level went way down; there was nothing special about being a Christian, and nobody was out missionarying.

It was, in fact, acceptable.

Oh, as to the Communists persecution of Christians…yes, there was, and I’m sorry I gave the impression that there was not. The point I was trying, unsuccessfully, to make was that the Communists were more successful because the tactics they used were not the standard persecution used against the early Christians. The Communists did not use public displays of torture; they used gulags (get 'em out of sight) and public education.

We can see how well THAT works just by looking at the USA today. If kids don’t get taught religion at home, they don’t get taught at all–in fact, in the schools they are very carefully taught to steer away from religion. And that, I am afraid, IS working to defeat the church–all churches.
 
…I have not been convinced that this “great apostasy” ever took place. 😦
Where is there any evidence or even some kind of back up for it?
Obviously you are not convinced. If you were, you would join one of the Restorationist faiths. Since according to your profile you are investigating Catholicism, it looks as if you are leaning rather far in the direction of ‘no apostasy.’

That there is evidence and back up for the idea of an apostasy is equally obvious–to those who do belong to one of the Restorationist faiths. It’s why they belong to one.

I hope you will excuse me if I do not engage in a debate with you over this, Zundrah; your previous posts do not make me believe that discussing this issue with you would be useful.
 
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