Z
zerinus
Guest
This is just a long, unhistorical and illogical ramble. You express an opinion which cannot prove or disprove anything.
MORMONS (LDS) what is this "great apostasy" that you claim to have happened?
- Status
Z
zerinus
Guest
I haven’t ignored anything. You evidently have been ignoring what I have been saying, because all the points you have raised have already been addressed.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
No, zerinus. You guys are coming along after the fact claiming that there has been an apostosy. YOU provide the date of the last Apostle’s death to prove your “apostasy theory.” YOU prove there has been an apostasy. And so far, neither of you and your Mormon apologists have done so.
YOU give US the date. The burden of proof is not on Catholics. YOU are making the claim.
R
ricko
Guest
The Scripture they keep posting has to do with the “latter days” They can’t seem to believe that the latter days is not the first century. The very verses they use actually prove them wrong! According to scripture the Apostasy is yet to come!
A
Answersplease
Guest
Your Quorum of the Twelve was NOT with the original Apostles BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN, and ALL THE TIME JESUS THE CHRIST WENT IN AND OUT AMONG THEM.
You also ignore the part about there ONLY BEING 12 FOUNDATION STONES in Heaven
with ONLY 12 NAMES WRITTEN ON THEM.
YOU HAVE IGNORED those Scriptures and my posts well.
Z
zerinus
Guest
All have been addressed. If you want to close your eyes to it, that is up to you.
Z
zerinus
Guest
The arguments I have put forward go beyond the “prophecues”. If you want to close your eyes to them, you have that choice.
Z
Zundrah
Guest
Oh well,
some stories can be sooo far fetched can’t they?
Z
zerinus
Guest
Already addressed.
The mystical significance of the number 12 is still preserved in LDS theology by the fact that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles always consists of 12 living men at ay one time; and that there are also twelve tribes of Israel.
A
Answersplease
Guest
Yes of course, why did’nt I think of that?
12 STONES in Heaven
but NOT WITH 12 NAMES of the original Apostles
but ALL THE NAMES OF ALL THE MEMBERS OF your Quorum of the 12 since its inception.
Perhaps because the book of Revelation is not as perfect as the Book Of Mormon. (not really)
I answered the question for you because you dodged it.
A
Answersplease
Guest
Z
zerinus
Guest
I have no difficulty accepting that the original Twelve have a special place in the gospel theology of the New Testament, so that their names should be immortalized in heaven. But that does not rule out the possibility of the perpetuation of the institution of that office on earth thereafter. Even in those days there began to be more than twelve Aposles. Judas was one of the Twelve who died and was replaced by a successor (which makes thirteen of them); and then we have Paul, who was also an Apostle, probably as a successor of James who was beheaded by Herod. So that brings the number of the Apostles to 14, which messes up all your calculations.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
Then if I have missed something, point me to the post in this forum where the exact date of this supposed “Great Apostosy” has occurred and been noted.
You were asked a question, what date was that? And you dodged it claiming it’s been “addressed.”
Z
zerinus
Guest
I have no difficulty accepting that the original Twelve have a special place in the gospel theology of the New Testament, so that their names should be immortalized in heaven. But that does not rule out the possibility of the perpetuation of that office here on earth thereafter. Even in those days there began to be more than twelve Apostles. Judas was one of the Twelve who died and was replaced by a successor (which makes thirteen of them); and then we have Paul, who was also an Apostle, probably as a successor of James who was beheaded by Herod. So that brings the number of the Apostles to at least 14, which messes up all your calculations.
Doesn’t the Catholic Church teach that the Pope is an Apostle and a successor to Peter? If your argument is valid, that would mess up Catholic theology as well as the Mormon one.
A
Answersplease
Guest
Those are not my calculations.
The Book Of Revelation clearly states 12 STONES with 12 NAMES.
Scripture clearly states Judas “TURNED ASIDE” from his Apostleship meaning he gave it up and his spot is open for anyone WHO MEETS THE REQUIREMENTS, Matthias did not become the 13th Apostle, Matthias became one of the 12 Apostles by specifically taking Judas’ spot.
How does that mess up my calculations?
I guess the Book Of Revelation is wrong then (not really) because there are ONLY 12 NAMES
and NOT 13 or 14 NAMES.
I am not an expert on the Catholic Church, but here is an answer to your question.
The Catholic Church recognizes the special significance of the original 12 Apostles, therefore only 12 NAMES on the 12 STONES. Any later Apostles like Saint Paul are guided by the Holy Spirit, but do not meet the requirements of being with the original 12 “BEGINNING WITH THE BAPTISM OF JOHN”, therefore CAN NOT be placed among the special original 12 Apostles.
Also, Judas specifically VACATED his OFFICE, as mentioned earlier Scripture says he “turned aside” from his office. Scripture does NOT say that any of the other special 12 Apostles “turned aside” from their office.
The point is your LDS needs an EXACT NUMBER OF ONLY 12 in their Quorum of the 12,
because I think your Quorum of the 12 are like Matthias in the special way he took over a vacated spot. If this is’nt true then say so.
If your Quorum of the 12 are a “perpetuation of that office” like you said, then they are just as good as the orginal 12 Apostles and all the names of the membership of your Quorum of the 12 since its inception should be there on the 12 STONES in Heaven.
Stephen168
New member
Jesus had an earthly ministry. During his ministry, he taught his disciple all they needed to know for salvation. Many of his disciples were called Apostles. The term ‘Apostle’ means one who is sent. Jesus selected The Twelve: Simon (Peter/Cephas/Rock), James (the Greater/son of Zebedee/brother of John), John (the Evangelist/the brother of James), Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James (the Lesser/the son of Alphaeus), Jude (Thaddaeus), Simon (the Zealot/Canaanite), and Judas Iscariot. Christ sent the Twelve (Matthew 10:5). Christ selected 70 more and they were sent (Luke 10:1). The Apostle James, the Righteous was an apostle but not one of the twelve (Gal 1:19). Mark and Luke the Evangelists are referred to as Apostles. By tradition, James, Luke, and Mark were members of the seventy. Paul and Barnabas were called Apostles (Acts 14:14). Barnabas was taught by the Twelve and was with Paul on his first journey. These Apostles are the witnesses and recorders of Christ’s earthly ministry. Most were witnesses to his resurrection.
Just as sheep have four legs but not all animals with four legs are sheep; all the Apostles were not ‘The Twelve.’ The Twelve were the foundation of his Church (Eph 2:19-22), but not just any 12 but THE Twelve (Rev 21:14). The corner stone and the foundation are laid once. Just as Christ is eternally the head of the Church, The Twelve are the eternal foundation.
After Judas’ apostasy and death, the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias.
According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are:
a) Witness the resurrected Lord
b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth.
These requirements limit the council membership to the first century. After all the men that walked with the twelve, while the Lord walked the earth, died; no one else qualified. The Twelve was never meant to be on going. This was the only time eleven selected a twelfth; one apostasy, one replacement. Revelation 21:14: Peter/Cephas/Rock, James son of Zebedee, John the Evangelist, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Jude, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias.
Just as there was no need to replace Christ as the head of Church after the crucifixion, or replace The Twelve as the foundation after their deaths; the Apostles were not replaced after their deaths. If Apostle was only an office to be filled, they could have easily been replaced; just like Bishops have been replaced for almost 2000 years.
The only consistent meaning for being called ‘Apostle’ seems to be an Evangelist who was taught by Christ or The Twelve. The Twelve would pass from the earth by design. The title of Apostle would pass from the earth because The Twelve were not here to commission them. When Eusebius (Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History © 324) refers to an Apostle being replaced it is as the Apostle’s position of Bishop (Peter in Rome, James in Jerusalem) not as Apostles. As the Apostles died, IF they were also Bishops, they were replaced by Bishops.
“For by her activity the machinations of her foes were promptly shown up and extinguished, though one after another heresies were invented, the earlier ones constantly passing away and disappearing, in different ways at different times, into forms of every shape and character. But the splendor of the Catholic and one true Church, always remaining the same and unchanged, grew steadily in greatness and strength,” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History Book IV, Chapter 7.
Just as sheep have four legs but not all animals with four legs are sheep; all the Apostles were not ‘The Twelve.’ The Twelve were the foundation of his Church (Eph 2:19-22), but not just any 12 but THE Twelve (Rev 21:14). The corner stone and the foundation are laid once. Just as Christ is eternally the head of the Church, The Twelve are the eternal foundation.
After Judas’ apostasy and death, the Twelve needed to be restored. The eleven chose Matthias.
According to Peter there are two requirements to be a member of the Twelve. The two requirements are:
a) Witness the resurrected Lord
b) Been in the company of the twelve while the Lord walked on earth.
These requirements limit the council membership to the first century. After all the men that walked with the twelve, while the Lord walked the earth, died; no one else qualified. The Twelve was never meant to be on going. This was the only time eleven selected a twelfth; one apostasy, one replacement. Revelation 21:14: Peter/Cephas/Rock, James son of Zebedee, John the Evangelist, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Jude, Simon the Zealot, and Matthias.
Just as there was no need to replace Christ as the head of Church after the crucifixion, or replace The Twelve as the foundation after their deaths; the Apostles were not replaced after their deaths. If Apostle was only an office to be filled, they could have easily been replaced; just like Bishops have been replaced for almost 2000 years.
The only consistent meaning for being called ‘Apostle’ seems to be an Evangelist who was taught by Christ or The Twelve. The Twelve would pass from the earth by design. The title of Apostle would pass from the earth because The Twelve were not here to commission them. When Eusebius (Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History © 324) refers to an Apostle being replaced it is as the Apostle’s position of Bishop (Peter in Rome, James in Jerusalem) not as Apostles. As the Apostles died, IF they were also Bishops, they were replaced by Bishops.
“For by her activity the machinations of her foes were promptly shown up and extinguished, though one after another heresies were invented, the earlier ones constantly passing away and disappearing, in different ways at different times, into forms of every shape and character. But the splendor of the Catholic and one true Church, always remaining the same and unchanged, grew steadily in greatness and strength,” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History Book IV, Chapter 7.
G
GodIsGracious
Guest
No. The pope is not an apostle. There is an apostolic succession in bishops that they authorized to teach and ordain other bishops. But no, the Catholic church does not teach that the Pope is an apostle. But he IS a successor to Peter.
Z
zerinus
Guest
I think you are reading too much in the book of Revelation. The Revelation is a highly symbolic and allegorical book, with many strange events transpiring in it that can only be understood as metaphors and allegories of spiritual things. The verse you quoted was as follows:
Revelation 21:
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
As an example, take the allegory of the “lamb” in this scripture. This metaphor occurs throughout the Revelation where Jesus is portrayed literally as a lamb. Here are a few highlights:
Revelation 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Revelation 14:
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
I don’t think that Jesus literally looks like a lamb! So you take a lot of that the way they were intended, as metaphors for spiritual things, not literally. As I said, I have no problem agreeing that the original Twelve should occupy a unique position in the theology of the New Testament by virtue of the fact that they were the first; but to rule out on that basis any perpetuation or continuation of that office in the church after the original 12 had died is just not logical, especially given that the examples of others having been ordained to succeed those who had died, such as Matthias and Paul.
Sorry, I had automatically assumed you are Catholic, since most people here are!
That is correct!
Well, we think that they have the same authority. They have the same priesthood. But whether they are “just as good” or not, I don’t think that any of them would want to aver!
That just is an illogical deduction—especially given the highly allegorical nature of the Revelation—and given the fact that we know that other Apostles were ordained after the first. See above.
D
dianaiad
Guest
Indeed.Oh well,
Which, by the way, is why I don’t pay attention to what people who dislike a religion have to say about that religion.
Z
zerinus
Guest
That is not correct. Jesus had many disciples; but He chose only Twelve whom He called Apostles: “And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles” (Luke 6:13).
It is true that “apostle” means “sent,” and the Seventy were also “sent”. But the term “apostle” became in a unique way the official title of the Twelve, which was not applied to anyone else. Anyone could claim to be “sent,” but not anyone claim to be an “Apostle”.
Barnabas is referred to as an apostle, but not in the unique and consistent way in which Paul applied that title to himself, identifying himself with the original Twelve.
These are invalid arguments that have already been addressed. No need to repeat that all over again.
Jesus was not dead that He should be replaced. He was resurrected, appeared to His disciples and taught them, and ascended to heaven, where He continued to reign as the head of the church. The Apostles were in a different situation. I had already quoted Ephesians 4 indicating the need for the continuation of the office of the Apostle along with the other officers of the church:
Ephesians 4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
I don’t like the idea of having to repeat the same things over and over. It gets a bit boring after a while.
- Status