Mormons married in heaven

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That is rubbish. You know perfectly well that is not true. An African bishop was recently put down by the Catholic Church for ordaining four married priests.

zerinus
Zerinus, your idiocy seems to know no bounds.

Did you read his posting at all? If you are married (and a Catholic of the Latin rite, what some call Roman Catholic) you cannot be a priest.

If your wife passes first, then if the discerning is there (after all it IS a vocation not an automatic all boys over 13 are Mormon Priests kind of thing) and after years of study (learning the languages of scripture, reading Church history) then one is ready for ordination.

You cannot divorce your wife and then become a priest.

Anglican use priests can be married (they are converts from Anglicanism, the original English offshoot of Catholic Christianity).

Read before you post. You are so ridiculous in your goofy claims, it is a good thing you don’t use your real name here or some friend of yours might be truly embarrassed for you.
 
Zerinus, your idiocy seems to know no bounds.

Did you read his posting at all? If you are married (and a Catholic of the Latin rite, what some call Roman Catholic) you cannot be a priest.

If your wife passes first, then if the discerning is there (after all it IS a vocation not an automatic all boys over 13 are Mormon Priests kind of thing) and after years of study (learning the languages of scripture, reading Church history) then one is ready for ordination.

You cannot divorce your wife and then become a priest.

Anglican use priests can be married (they are converts from Anglicanism, the original English offshoot of Catholic Christianity).

Read before you post. You are so ridiculous in your goofy claims, it is a good thing you don’t use your real name here or some friend of yours might be truly embarrassed for you.
There’s a little more to this. We do have some married priests in the Latin Rite. There’s one in my diocese. He was formerly a pastor in the Methodist church.

Someone who is a married Protestant minister then converts to Catholicism can petition Rome for permission to be ordained a Catholic priest. Such an ordination may occur after a careful examination of the prospective priest’s family and situation, and after completion of all other educational requirements for ordination.

At his ordination the wife of the married priest, like the wife of the married deacon, must give her assent and permission for the ordination. This is because the marriage existed before the ordination, and the church will not allow the marriage to be sundered by the ordination. Like the married deacon, the new priest is also asked to commit his life to the service of the Lord. He must promise that if his wife should predecease him he will redouble his commitment to the Lord and not take another wife.

Married clergy who convert to Catholicism are the only ones allowed to become married priests. Any other married Catholic man is limited to the office of deacon only, unless his wife predeceases him and he applies for ordination as priest afterwards. Another priest I knew was just that, a widower who became a priest in his 50s. He loved to show us pictures of his grandchildren.

Divorced men whose ex-wives are still alive can not become priests; a sacramentally married Catholic is considered married until the natural death of one of the spouses. Annulments are a little different, because they are official declarations that, despite appearances, the marriage was fatally flawed and never actually existed. I suppose that it would be possible for a man with an annuled marriage to become a priest, but I have never heard of it happening.
 
Actually, both Jesus and Paul taught the virtue of celibacy for the sake of the gospel. But that’s in the bible, so I guess Mormons wouldn’t believe it.

Celibacy for clergy is only practiced in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholic Rites have married priests. But even in the Latin Rite, no one is “prevented” from marrying. It is a voluntary choice by those who want to be priests. Jesus taught that anyone who could remain celibate for the sake of the gospel should do so. (Matt 19:11). Paul wrote that he wished everyone could remain celibate, as he himself was. (1Cor 7:1-9)

The LDS are way off on this one. Horny Joe made up his own gospel of lust, but it is opposite the gospel of Christ.

Paul
And thank you, Paul.

For the sake of discussion, here are the passages you’ve cited:

Mt 19:10-12 Jesus’ disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” He answered, “Not all can accept this word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”

1 Cor 7:1-2, 6-9 Now in regard to the matters about which you wrote: "It is a good thing for a man not to touch a woman," but because of cases of immorality every man should have his own wife, and every woman her own husband.

This I say by way of concession, however, not as a command. Indeed, I wish everyone to be as I am, but each has a particular gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.

And here’s one more quote, just as explicit than the others:

1 Cor 7:32-35 I should like you to be free of anxieties. **An **unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.

All three passages are quite clear, and somewhat confounding when compared to Mormon theology. Unmarried celibacy is the highest state, and the ability to live that way is granted to a select group. Unmarried celibacy frees the individual from earthly concerns and makes possible a life dedicated to God. Jesus and Paul were both unmarried, and strongly advocated the unmarried life.

So how do we get from Jesus and Paul emphasizing a life of complete dedication to God, down to the necessity for a Joseph Smth and kin to take one or more wives in order to attain the best part of in heaven? Not through the Bible, that’s for sure.

Z has mentioned in several places that he believes the Bible was severely abridged from larger works; I suppose he believes it was edited also. I wonder if this isn’t one (actually, three) of these examples, as the only way to get around the clear text is to deny that it says what it says.

Nan
 
Because that is how it is. That is how God has ordained it to be. I guess men are just luckier than women!

I never said that she can have two husbands. I said she can have her first sealing cancelled so she can be sealed to her second husband for eternity. She will still be married to one husband not two.

zerinus
Thanks zerinus, I appreciate you answering my questions so succintly. I have another one now.

Is there a teaching or theory as to why God doesn’t allow polygamy for males here on Earth, but does in Heaven?
 
Thanks zerinus, I appreciate you answering my questions so succintly. I have another one now.

Is there a teaching or theory as to why God doesn’t allow polygamy for males here on Earth, but does in Heaven?
God allows polygamy on earth under certain circumstances. He determines when it should be practiced and when not. As you know from the Bible, many Old Testament prophets and patriarchs practised polygamy. In this dispensation the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that it was permissible to practice it. The Church practised polygamy for several years until Congress passed a law (under the influence of the enemies of the Church who were very influential at that time) making polygamy illegal in the US; and in obedience to the laws of the land the Church discontinued the practice. Our Church doctrine also requires us to be obedient to the law of the land. The Church did not want a confrontation with the US government; and therefore decided to obey the law rather than seek confrontation. But the theological principle of it has not been abandoned.

zerinus
 
God allows polygamy on earth under certain circumstances. He determines when it should be practiced and when not. As you know from the Bible, many Old Testament prophets and patriarchs practised polygamy. In this dispensation the Lord revealed to Joseph Smith that it was permissible to practice it. The Church practised polygamy for several years until Congress passed a law (under the influence of the enemies of the Church who were very influential at that time) making polygamy illegal in the US; and in obedience to the laws of the land the Church discontinued the practice. Our Church doctrine also requires us to be obedient to the law of the land. The Church did not want a confrontation with the US government; and therefore decided to obey the law rather than seek confrontation. But the theological principle of it has not been abandoned.

zerinus
So does God currently allow it in America, even though the laws don’t?
 
So does God currently allow it in America, even though the laws don’t?
I don’t understand your question. If God says that it is no sin for me to eat porridge, and the American government says that if I eat porridge I will go to jail, so I stop eating porridge to avoid going to jail, does that mean that God “currently allows eating porridge in America, even though the laws don’t?” or not?

zerinus
 
let’s be accurate. AFTER Congress passed laws against polygamy Mormons still practiced it for years in direct violation of the law. Their scriptures (the D&C101:4 1835 until 1876) said that they didn’t and that it was an abomination. this was openly deceitful.Their Prophets continued to promulgate though until around the turn of the century. (Official declaration1 current edition was issued circa 1890 but obviously there was some transition period that appeared to extend no later than 1910) they only stopped AFTER federal troops marched into Utah and seized church property and jailed many LDS men. They agreed to a number of conditions meant to ensure that they would never practice polygamy in order to gain statehood and stop government intervention in their affairs.

CURRENTLY LDS do not allow polygamy to be practiced anywhere in the world. However, if a man’s wife has predeceased him and/or if he is divorced then he can be sealed to another woman in the temple. there is no limit to the number of women a man can be sealed to. He may only be lawfully married to one living woman at a time while on earth.
 
So how do we get from Jesus and Paul emphasizing a life of complete dedication to God, down to the necessity for a Joseph Smth and kin to take one or more wives in order to attain the best part of in heaven? Not through the Bible, that’s for sure.

Z has mentioned in several places that he believes the Bible was severely abridged from larger works; I suppose he believes it was edited also. I wonder if this isn’t one (actually, three) of these examples, as the only way to get around the clear text is to deny that it says what it says.
Actually, there are other ways of “getting round it”. I make a distinction between the Matthew quote and the two quotes from Paul. It is true that under certain limited circumstances and for limited periods of time it is preferable to be unmarried in order to fulfil certain types of mission for the Lord. For example, Jesus’ entire life and life’s mission was dedicated to one purpose, which was to offer Himself up as a willing sacrifice to God for the sins of the whole world. The type of mission He was required to fulfil prevented Him from preoccupying Himself with the cares and obligations of married life. But He was an exception rather than a rule. When we send our young men to do two years of missionary service for the Church, they are required to remain unmarried during that period of time so that they can devote their entire time during that period 100% to the Lord’s service. When they finish their missions and return home, they are not only permitted to get married, but they are actively encouraged to do so. When Paul was preaching the gospel in Asia under heavy persecution, being driven from place to place by his persecutors, it would not have been a practical proposition for him to carry around a wife under those circumstances. That would have been a hindrance to his missionary efforts. But apparently, the majority of the other Apostles and early preachers and evangelists of the church did precisely that—which Paul disapproved of! Here is the quote:

1 Corinthians 9:

1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

zerinus

Continued . . . /
 
/ . . . Continued

So, as you can see, there was not general agreement among the Apostles and disciples of Jesus over exactly how one should practice this rule, and how far one should go to practise it. Paul was much more strict than the rest. But Paul was a bit of a maverick in any case—in more that one respect! There were other things that he taught and said were not approved of by the other Apostles. One of them was his doctrine of justification by faith without works. 2 Peter 3:16 and James 2:14-26 were intended as a gentle rebuke to Paul for teaching that doctrine.

Going back to what the Lord said in Matthew 19:10-12, it is a mistake to interpret it to mean that a celibate state is inherently a more desirable state to be in than a married one—both in this life and the next. What it means is that under certain limited circumstances it is necessary in order to fulfil certain types of mission for the Lord; but it does not mean that it is inherently, permanently, and eternally a preferred condition. Under certain circumstances, a marital status may actually help a person to serve the Lord better than a celibate one. For example, a Mormon bishop who lives an urban, settled, sedentary life, and has a job like everybody else, is actually helped by his married life, the support of his wife, and the experience that family life gives him, to serve in the Church of God than if he was celibate. I am convinced that a Mormon bishop or stake president (who is nearly always married) is able to give more effective service to his flock than a celibate Catholic priest can—precisely because he is married. This I believe is the correct way to interpret Matthew.

Moving on from that to the quotes from Paul, we are now entering a different kind of territory. Paul was a bit of a maverick. His teachings do not always square with what the other Apostles taught. He seems to have been anti-women. He said terrible things about women and how to conduct themselves in church and society that nobody takes seriously today. He told them not to talk in church, and cover up their heads, and not teach or ask questions in church, and wait until they get home and ask their husbands! In our church women do as much contribution to the work of the Church as men do. Most of our Gospel Doctrine teachers seem to be women, and they often seem to do a better job of it than men. Our Church would be infinitely worse off if it were deprived of the contribution of the women. So what Paul teaches abut women, celibacy, and the relationship between the sexes, needs to be taken with a large pinch of salt.

zerinus
 
For example, Jesus’ entire life and life’s mission was dedicated to one purpose, which was to offer Himself up as a willing sacrifice to God for the sins of the whole world. The type of mission He was required to fulfil prevented Him from preoccupying Himself with the cares and obligations of married life
So, Z, are you saying that Jesus was unmarried?
 
Originally Posted by zerinus
For example, Jesus’ entire life and life’s mission was dedicated to one purpose, which was to offer Himself up as a willing sacrifice to God for the sins of the whole world. The type of mission He was required to fulfil prevented Him from preoccupying Himself with the cares and obligations of married life.
It sounds to me this is exactly what Catholic priests do – they give up married life so they aren’t preoccupied with the cares and obligations of the world so they can concentrate on the work of God. The divorce rate among Protestant clergy is extremely high because trying to balance the demands of family and their church is stressful.
So, Z, are you saying that Jesus was unmarried?
Most Mormons I know believe Jesus was married. Some even believe he was a polygamist.
 
could some one explain what the Mormons believe about marriage in heaven?
I have absolutely no idea. But what I do know is that the Pharisees tried to catch Our Lord out by asking Him ‘to whom a widow in the next lifel be married if she has 10-husbands in this life’.

The Lord makes clear in His reply that in the next life, there will not be need for marriage, that is a realm of this life for the needs of this life. That function will not be necessary in the next life.
 
Most Mormons I know believe Jesus was married. Some even believe he was a polygamist.
That’s what I was getting at. All of the early LDS prophets and apostles believed and taught that Jesus was polygamously married - to Mary Magdelene as well as to Mary and Martha the sisters of Lazarus, and perhaps to others. They also taught that Jesus sired children and that early Mormon leaders were direct descendants of Jesus.

Even when I was LDS, in the 70’s and 80’s, this was taught in LDS lesson manuals and stated in the Ensign magazine.

God bless,
Paul
 
originally posted by
Zerinus
But the theological principle of it (polygamy) has not been abandoned.

Proving, of course, that the whole SLC setup isn’t even true mormonism.
It’s to be found in Colorado City, AZ & Hilldale, UT.
 
…there was not general agreement among the Apostles and disciples of Jesus over exactly how one should practice this rule, and how far one should go to practise it. Paul was much more strict than the rest…

Going back to what the Lord said in Matthew 19:10-12, it is a mistake to interpret it to mean that a celibate state is inherently a more desirable state to be in than a married one—both in this life and the next. What it means is that under certain limited circumstances it is necessary in order to fulfil certain types of mission for the Lord; but it does not mean that it is inherently, permanently, and eternally a preferred condition…

Our Church would be infinitely worse off if it were deprived of the contribution of the women…
zerinus
Thank you for your thoughtful explanation and your endorsement of the complimentary roles of men and women. I respect your opinion about it being a mistake to endorse celibacy over marriage, however I do not agree with it.

One thing I inadvertently omitted from my earlier post is that when the New Testament speaks of contemporary Christian and Jewish marriages, the words for man and woman are always singular unless it is clear that a group is being addressed. So, the NT has “husbands and wives” or “husband and wife” but nowhere does the NT speak of contemporary Christian or Jewish marriage as “husband and wives.” Thus, the NT does not endorse polygamy, even though it acknowledges it was practiced in OT times.

Moving on, it’s true enough that the Catholic Church does not today follow all the strictures Paul placed on women, although I know of Baptist and Pentecostal churches that do. For us it’s not a matter of picking and choosing doctrines, cafeteria-style. It’s a recognition of where Paul’s instruction did or did not align with Jesus’, and understanding middle-eastern culture 2,000 years ago when women were commonly in a subordinate role.

Jesus and Paul agreed on the benefits of an unmarried man being able to devote himself entirely to God. The Church follows this instruction. But Jesus did not relegate women to a silent servant role the way that Paul seems to, and throughout the NT letters we find prominent women, so the Church gives preference to Jesus’ teaching and also respects and endorses the leadership of women. However, we do not have women in the priesthood because none of Jesus’ 12 apostles were women.

We know that Simon Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, was married. He was already married when Jesus called him to be an apostle. We presume that several of the others were married at the time they were called. This presumption is based on several factors: (a) we know from 1 Cor that several were married besides Simon Peter, (b) the bible does not give any account of betrothals and weddings amongst the apostles either during or after Jesus’ ministry, (c) in those days men normally married in their late teens or very early twenties, and most of the apostles were mature men already in business for themselves. The exception was John who was probably in his mid-teens. Yet, if John went on to marry later there is no record of it.

For the record, the Roman Catholic Church holds that celibacy for the clergy is a Discipline, not a Doctrine. This means that as the world changes over time, the rule may be modified. And we recognize that the Eastern Rite Catholic churches and the Orthodox have married clergy. The social situation in Europe for most of the last 2,000 years, however, was such that there were plenty of men willing and able to commit themselves to the celibate life completely committed to God, so we had no compelling need for a married priesthood. A nobleman would have several sons to ensure that his titles and lands would have an heir, but if all his sons survived to adulthood the younger sons who would not inherit were often encouraged in the loftier pursuits of religious life. Thus, the noble’s estate was kept intact.

At present, allowances are made for the priestly ordination of mature married men who were already functioning as non-Catholic ministers before they joined the Catholic Church. The Catholic rule for ordination of deacons is that they be either single men of any age, or married men of mature years. A condition of their ordination is that they commit to a single, celibate life if their wives should pre-decease them.

Parenthood is truly a 36-hour-a-day job, and ministry is also a 36-hour-a-day job. A father needs to be able to put his job on hold for the sake of his young son. In limiting ordination of married clergy to older, mature men, we have managed to avoid the inevitable conflicts. Thus we obtain the benefits of their complete commitment to God, the life-perspective of first-hand experience of marriage, and the support of a wife who is not torn between responsibility to her children and to her church.

Nan
 
I have absolutely no idea. But what I do know is that the Pharisees tried to catch Our Lord out by asking Him ‘to whom a widow in the next lifel be married if she has 10-husbands in this life’.

The Lord makes clear in His reply that in the next life, there will not be need for marriage, that is a realm of this life for the needs of this life. That function will not be necessary in the next life.
In heaven, we completely and fully experience the glorious richness of God’s love, sharing it in full communion with the angels and saints.

Next to this, sex is a bummer. 😛
 
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