Mormons search the web and find doubt

[twopekinguys]

Just to clarify a bit further.

Just because there are good people in the mormon church, it doesn’t mean their theology is also good.

Conversely, just because their theology is bad, doesn’t mean they are bad people.

Nobody is saying the mormon people are bad people, only those that deliberately lie, like I said before.

 

[Porknpie]

However, the people are their religion. I don’t think that they can be separted. How Mormons behave or act is a reflection of their religious faith and what they have been taught. Mormon behavior and how they engage their community is who they are because of their religious faith. How can a ;Mormon not be influenced by their religious tradition?

Invisible,

No one can blame any Mormon for what they have been taught and for their ignorance of the truth as they grow up. But faith and reason can never be at odds with one another, they in fact support each other. It’s in this light that Mormon’s can find the truth in Christ, which is found in it’s fullness with the Catholic Church, the Church established by Christ, founded on St. Peter from which Christ per his own words is leading to all truth as he promised until the end of time. He said, I will be with you always. This same Christ calls us from where we are at, to truth… to abandon our old self and find ourselves anew.

Faith and reason are at odds with each on in LDS theology…something not found in the Catholic Church. One can start with Joseph Smith:

• An alleged prophet from God teaching a new Gospel

the bible says to not listen to anyone teaching a new gospel, even from an angel.
this alleged prophet from God got himself in trouble with the law selling miracle oil…later with polygamy
this alleged prophet from God broke the 10 Commandments by marrying 34 women (polygamy) and committed adultery over ten times.

Reason asks

• “does a prophet from God break the law and the Ten Commandments without repenting?”
• “would Jesus lie saying that he would lead his Church to all truth…that he’d be with it always until the end of time…and then let it fall into apostasy immediately upon his death?”

Responses to both questions are no and not ever.

 

[KathleenGee]

Good post, PorkNPie!

 

[TexanKnight]

People leave their faith for many reasons. Catholics leave their faith over history or perceived corruption etc. Mormns leave their faith over history or a crisis of faith. Lutherans leave their faith in Scandinavia over politics etc because the church is state run. People leave their faiths over various of reasons. It should not be a cause of celebration when religious people find doubt.

Yes, but only Mormons leave their faith because they were lied t and because of false prophets

 

[Marie5890]

People leave their faith for many reasons. Catholics leave their faith over history or perceived corruption etc. Mormns leave their faith over history or a crisis of faith. Lutherans leave their faith in Scandinavia over politics etc because the church is state run. People leave their faiths over various of reasons. It should not be a cause of celebration when religious people find doubt.

Most former Mormons dont leave over a so-called “crisis of faith” That is a myth encourage in Mormon thought.

Most leave over history and/or doctrinal issues.

THAT may cause a crisis of faith, but that is the result of leaving over history/doctrinal distortions.

 

[invisible_man]

If you want to stick with that, then you have to accept the bad history along with the good. mormons are too good at ignoring the bad, even if it is true.

mormonism is based on feelings. There is no truth to it.

MMM is a good example of mormonism trying to hide/ignore their history. Hickley flip flopped on it. Young tried to hide/lie about it.

Want to keep going?

I don’t think that Mormons ignore the bad. One can read the Richard Bushman’s book Rough Stone Rolling and that book certainly has all the history at the time of Joseph Smith. Bushman is a Mormon. I also don’t think that MMM is ignored. It is discussed within Mormon circles. For example, I went to the lds.org sight put into the search Mountain Meadows and got these:

lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=mountain+meadows

It seems that the Mormons are dealing with it. I don’t know if Mormonism is based on just feelings. I am sure that it is based on other things too. I think that some Mormons have difficulties in excepting imperfections in their history. I am sure that the problem comes from there.

I found an article in their magazine about it:

lds.org/ensign/2007/09/the-mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng

So where is it being ignored?

 

[invisible_man]

Most former Mormons dont leave over a so-called “crisis of faith” That is a myth encourage in Mormon thought.

Most leave over history and/or doctrinal issues.

THAT may cause a crisis of faith, but that is the result of leaving over history/doctrinal distortions.

That is what I meant. This also happens to many people of other faiths too. It is not just a mormon thing.

 

[invisible_man]

Invisible,

No one can blame any Mormon for what they have been taught and for their ignorance of the truth as they grow up. But faith and reason can never be at odds with one another, they in fact support each other. It’s in this light that Mormon’s can find the truth in Christ, which is found in it’s fullness with the Catholic Church, the Church established by Christ, founded on St. Peter from which Christ per his own words is leading to all truth as he promised until the end of time. He said, I will be with you always. This same Christ calls us from where we are at, to truth… to abandon our old self and find ourselves anew.

Faith and reason are at odds with each on in LDS theology…something not found in the Catholic Church. One can start with Joseph Smith:

• An alleged prophet from God teaching a new Gospel

the bible says to not listen to anyone teaching a new gospel, even from an angel.
this alleged prophet from God got himself in trouble with the law selling miracle oil…later with polygamy
this alleged prophet from God broke the 10 Commandments by marrying 34 women (polygamy) and committed adultery over ten times.

The arguments that you presented can be used against all churches. Atheists often claim that believers lack reason and if they did find reason, they would begin to disbelieve. Mormons have their own cultural norms and they have their own religious history. The end result are a people who are rather decent in their behavior.I see nothing coming from them that would give me a clue that their church is based on evil or lies.

When it comes to the bible, I think that it is important to remember that the Gospels were written years after the death of Christ. The writers of the Gospels basically wanted to write something that would strengthen the faith of the believers. They did this wonderfully. To understand the real Jesus people need to read about the historical Jesus. A new book called Zealot does this even though the book is flawed. It is also good to see Jesus, the man as such historians do who write about the historical Jesus. Mormonism is the history of human beings who were imperfect and infalliable. When a person reads about the historical Jesus, his imperfections can perhaps be seen. The Gospels put faith before reason since the narratives were written for faith promotion for the early Christians.

This is not my view but the view of people who have studied theology.

 

[invisible_man]

I found this from a Mormon site:

fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-the-loss-and-rekindling-of-faith

I think that the Mormon Church is now addressing the issue. The stories of these Mormons are interesting. From faith, to doubt, to faith again. Their issues seem to be represented here among the ExMormons.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I found this from a Mormon site:

fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2013-fair-conference/2013-the-loss-and-rekindling-of-faith

I think that the Mormon Church is now addressing the issue. The stories of these Mormons are interesting. From faith, to doubt, to faith again. Their issues seem to be represented here among the ExMormons.

Atypical experiences, related as an effort to keep people in Mormonism, who are doubting.

 

[Stephen168]

The arguments that you presented can be used against all churches. Atheists often claim that believers lack reason and if they did find reason, they would begin to disbelieve.

No, because the atheists are wrong. Catholicism is reasonable. Mormonism is not. Joseph Smith’s claims about the Book of Mormon are false. So either the Book of Mormon is false, Joseph Smith is a liar, or both.

 

[Porknpie]

No, because the atheists are wrong. Catholicism is reasonable. Mormonism is not. Joseph Smith’s claims about the Book of Mormon are false. So either the Book of Mormon is false, Joseph Smith is a liar, or both.

Stephen,

Do not Mormon’s claim that the BoM is the “Fullness of the Everlasting Gospel”?

If this is true, why does one not find the following in it?

• God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones
• Jesus Christ is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer
• Men can become gods.
• God the Father has a god above him

And why is there no historic evidence…none whatsover for a great battle between two ancient civilizations? No great temples? No archeology whatsoever?

Honey bees coming to the new world prior to the Spanish? Not true.
Chariots coming to the new world prior to the Spanish? Not true
Horses " ? Not true
Elephants " ? Not true
Swords " ? Not true
American Indians descendents of Palestine? No…genetic science says Asia.

This is where human reason comes into play. One can look objectively look at the BoM and say it is false. One can then reason the that the words of the bible are true, the words of Jesus are true when he says that he will lead his Church to all Truth and will be with it until the end of time.

One can reason to what is true and what is false and put aside blind faith.

Pork

 

[Stephen168]

Stephen,

Do not Mormon’s claim that the BoM is the “Fullness of the Everlasting Gospel”?

If this is true, why does one not find the following in it?

• God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones
• Jesus Christ is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer
• Men can become gods.
• God the Father has a god above him

Because Joseph Smith continued to make up stuff and the Book of Mormon was written; until he died.

And why is there no historic evidence…none whatsover for a great battle between two ancient civilizations? No great temples? No archeology whatsoever?

Honey bees coming to the new world prior to the Spanish? Not true.
Chariots coming to the new world prior to the Spanish? Not true
Horses " ? Not true
Elephants " ? Not true
Swords " ? Not true

In the 1970s my Mormon friend told me they had just not found the evidence yet. Of course science was already telling us that the aboriginal people of America were from Asia.

American Indians descendents of Palestine? No…genetic science says Asia.

This is what has proven Joseph Smith to be a liar.

This is where human reason comes into play. One can look objectively look at the BoM and say it is false.

Yes, we can. The facts are: the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document and Mormonism was started by Joseph Smith in 19th century America.

One can then reason the that the words of the bible are true, the words of Jesus are true when he says that he will lead his Church to all Truth and will be with it until the end of time.

One can reason to what is true and what is false and put aside blind faith.

We know the New Testament is a first century document. We know that Jesus Christ started a church in the first century and history shows that the Catholic Church can reasonably claim to be that Church while Mormonism cannot.

 

[TexanKnight]

Invisible seems incapable of seeing the difference between someone losing their faith in any god because of death, or bad stuff, etc. and leaving the LDS Church because they discover js was a liar

 

[invisible_man]

Atypical experiences, related as an effort to keep people in Mormonism, who are doubting.

I don’t know if they are atypical. It does show that Mormons are coming to terms with the issue. I think that the experiences of the panel are shared by others. Reading what they had to say made me understand more the role that doubt has in faith. These prominent exmormons came back to the faith after researching lds history. They came to realize that they had it wrong. They are at a happier place in their lives. This is not a bad thing.

I think that doubt in normal especially when it comes to faith. It is not easy to be a Christian these days. Catholic Answers is attempting to stem doubt within the Catholic population. I am sure that it does a good job. It is a constant battle against the forces of relativity.

 

[invisible_man]

Invisible seems incapable of seeing the difference between someone losing their faith in any god because of death, or bad stuff, etc. and leaving the LDS Church because they discover js was a liar

If it were only so simple. I think that Joseph Smith’s name always brought contention. This was the case from the very beginning. It seems that it still continues. I don’t think that it helps that Joseph Smith is called a liar or a false prophet. Name calling is not the way to go. It seems that the Mormons have left this forum because of it. One must have a charitable discussion with people.

I discovered a lot of information by going to lds.org. I see very little hidden when I searched for answers that were brought by members of this thread and other Mormon threads. I expected no results at all.

 

[invisible_man]

Stephen,

Do not Mormon’s claim that the BoM is the “Fullness of the Everlasting Gospel”?

If this is true, why does one not find the following in it?

• God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones
• Jesus Christ is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer
• Men can become gods.
• God the Father has a god above him

Pork

Sounds different but also unique. What is wrong in that? I will look into these issues and maybe give an opinion. This has nothing to do with doubt so it would be off topic.

 

[Stephen168]

I think that the Mormon Church is now addressing the issue. The stories of these Mormons are interesting. From faith, to doubt, to faith again. Their issues seem to be represented here among the ExMormons.

In general, it seems they have a restored faith in God but they have stuck their head in the sand in regards to a faith in the Mormon Church. They just went back to where they are comfortable.

 

[twopekinguys]

I don’t think that Mormons ignore the bad. One can read the Richard Bushman’s book Rough Stone Rolling and that book certainly has all the history at the time of Joseph Smith. Bushman is a Mormon. I also don’t think that MMM is ignored. It is discussed within Mormon circles. For example, I went to the lds.org sight put into the search Mountain Meadows and got these:

lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=mountain+meadows

It seems that the Mormons are dealing with it. I don’t know if Mormonism is based on just feelings. I am sure that it is based on other things too. I think that some Mormons have difficulties in excepting imperfections in their history. I am sure that the problem comes from there.

I found an article in their magazine about it:

lds.org/ensign/2007/09/the-mountain-meadows-massacre?lang=eng

So where is it being ignored?

How many times does it have to be explained to you? You are just being obtuse now.

Read back through the thread. It isn’t actively being taught for one thing, and what is on those sites is obviously written to favor the mormon point of view as opposed to historical truth.

1 of 2 things is going on here. 1. You are trolling. 2. You are why me in disguise, and still trolling.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know if they are atypical. It does show that Mormons are coming to terms with the issue. I think that the experiences of the panel are shared by others. Reading what they had to say made me understand more the role that doubt has in faith. These prominent exmormons came back to the faith after researching lds history. They came to realize that they had it wrong. They are at a happier place in their lives. This is not a bad thing.

I think that doubt in normal especially when it comes to faith. It is not easy to be a Christian these days. Catholic Answers is attempting to stem doubt within the Catholic population. I am sure that it does a good job. It is a constant battle against the forces of relativity.

Your posts are as relative as anything I’ve read. So. Keep on with your “feel good do it” religion. It is a reduction of faith, and only requires to forgo doubt about the efficacy of self determination.

The panel consists of people who have chosen to ignore Mormon history. They don’t actually address any historical issues, whatsoever, just provide the Mormon mantra of, I believe and feel good about what I believe. This is not faith, this is hedonism.