Mormons search the web and find doubt

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twopekinguys said:
Even though it is difficult with your family, once they see that you are happy, and a good example of your faith, I am sure things will change.
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Not discounting what you said, as I definitely agree, but it’s just funny because Mormons (and I’m sure others) say the same thing! :D. That’s what they said to me as well. Just a thought I had.
 
My husband and I are introverts so we actually don’t miss the social aspects of Mormonism all that much. Mormonism tends to be better suited for extroverts. We miss not seeing certain friends all the time, but we have made time to meet with them and have enjoyed our time better because we see each other outside church. I love the personal worship experience of the Mass. I much prefer to not to have to talk and socialize with people. I’m there to worship God. We are attending a large parish and there are plenty of ministries to meet our social needs and interests.
 
gracepoole said:
Agreed. What is happening in catechism classes?! :eek:
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Well, I can answer what is happening in my little corner of the world. 😃

I took over 2nd grade Religious Education at our parish after a beloved and committed teacher who had served for at least 12 years. When we met, she shared with me her teaching strategies and the material she covered. It was a bit too, shall I say, kumbaya for my taste.

I was very surprised at the lack of information that was being taught to the children. She felt that the children need to know that God loves them first and foremost and that is what she wanted them to walk away knowing from her class. And this was First Communion preparation.

I really appreciated that bit of insight because I tend to be more rule-oriented and have to work harder on the “God Is Love” part of my curriculum.

I now teach 4th grade and so far, when I have asked the question “Is Jesus Christ truly present in the Eucharist?” every student answers “NO!” (unless they were in my 2nd grade glass and they answer “YES!”)

I always spend a couple of lessons teaching about the True Presence and send home packets to the parents showing how the Early Church truly believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I have had one student tell me his mother rejected the packet that was sent home and refused to read it. I know that I am educating the parents along with my students because they were probably very poorly catechised. I certainly was!

Also, our book NEVER mentioned the Real Presence - and this was a 2nd grade Communion preparation class! I used the Saint Joseph’s Baltimore Catechism to teach them about the Real Presence.

The good news - we have new books and new teachers and we are working very hard to bring the Truth of the Faith to our youth!!! 🙂
 
iepuras said:
Thank you everyone for your kind welcome and prayers. I really do feel at home in the Catholic Church and love how we are encouraged to ask questions in RCIA.

Because my parents live in the same ward as us, we told my parents right away. They were shocked and upset. They actually asked us our reasons for leaving and the just listened. We haven’t talked about it since we left in February. I hope they will think about our reasons and get out too, but at this point I can only have hope. They basically reacted as if we admitted to being serial killers. Apostacy is truly the greatest sin in Mormonism. Our relationship did deteriorate and we are trying to rebuild. We have agreed to simply not discuss our new religious life. I hope that they will become more open and attend my baptism next year. When I told my siblings, they never asked why so I haven’t told them. I desperately want to tell them so they can study their way out but I have to wait until they are ready.

About 6 weeks after we stopped going to church, we got a knock on the door about 10 minutes after we got home from Mass. It was our Elders Quorum President and Stake President. It was a very inconvenient time as we were trying to feed our children before nap time but they insisted on our time. When we started going through our list, the EQP was in shock. I don’t think he had heard a lot of these things before. The SP knew exactly what we were talking about. He told us that the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was what was important, not whether Joseph Smith was a prophet. I told them that was not true but that Mormonism hinged entirely on whether JS was an actual prophet of God. Even Hinckley said as much when he lead the Mormon church. Of course the BOM contains some religious truths because some of it was copied straight from the Bible! After they left, my husband I looked at each other and agreed that we can never go back. We sent our resignation email that day.

We are still the same people, we just have more beverage choices. 🙂 Even then, it took me a couple of months to realize it! I am so happy to be out with my husband and two children who are young enough the won’t remember ever being Mormon. My husband was a convert from Eastern Orthodoxy and is becoming Catholic with me but his process is much easier! Once I told him what I found, he told me he never would have joined if he knew those things. Despite the family difficulties we are incredibly happy. I love feeling spiritually free to find God and have true faith in Him.
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Wow - You are handling the situation with such grace and dignity. I am sure you planted some seeds in the minds of the EQP and SP!

May God continue to bless you and your family as your move along in your journey of faith!
 
iepuras said:
I love the personal worship experience of the Mass. I much prefer to not to have to talk and socialize with people. I’m there to worship God. We are attending a large parish and there are plenty of ministries to meet our social needs and interests.
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I am right there with you. 😃
 
lax16 said:
Well, I can answer what is happening in my little corner of the world. 😃

I took over 2nd grade Religious Education at our parish after a beloved and committed teacher who had served for at least 12 years. When we met, she shared with me her teaching strategies and the material she covered. It was a bit too, shall I say, kumbaya for my taste.

I was very surprised at the lack of information that was being taught to the children. She felt that the children need to know that God loves them first and foremost and that is what she wanted them to walk away knowing from her class. And this was First Communion preparation.

I really appreciated that bit of insight because I tend to be more rule-oriented and have to work harder on the “God Is Love” part of my curriculum.

I now teach 4th grade and so far, when I have asked the question “Is Jesus Christ truly present in the Eucharist?” every student answers “NO!” (unless they were in my 2nd grade glass and they answer “YES!”)

I always spend a couple of lessons teaching about the True Presence and send home packets to the parents showing how the Early Church truly believed in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

I have had one student tell me his mother rejected the packet that was sent home and refused to read it. I know that I am educating the parents along with my students because they were probably very poorly catechised. I certainly was!

Also, our book NEVER mentioned the Real Presence - and this was a 2nd grade Communion preparation class! I used the Saint Joseph’s Baltimore Catechism to teach them about the Real Presence.

The good news - we have new books and new teachers and we are working very hard to bring the Truth of the Faith to our youth!!! 🙂
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Sounds like you are doing a terrific job.👍
 
iepuras said:
As an ex-Mormon, I can tell you that the reasons I left were accurately addressed in the article and the transcript of the meeting. I had the same questions a problems with the history and doctrine and determined that it was all a fraud. Leaving lifted a great burden from my shoulders, but I have a new cross to bear with maintaining good relationships with my still very Mormon family. I am trying very hard to respect their beliefs while I am on my faith journey that is currently leading me to the Catholic Church.

A couple of posters who commented on the Mattsson interview on mormonstories.com claimed to have attended the meeting in Sweden. They stated that in the days following the meeting, they were personally visited by church leaders and given an ultimatum - resign or be excommunicated for apostacy. These strong arm tactics are disturbing to say the least but not entirely surprising. The Mormon church does work to discourage questioning and they often blame members if they have doubts or questions.

I am new to this forum and I am glad to see this NYT article discussed.
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Iepuras -

Welcome to CAF and WELCOME HOME! :clapping: I started a thread a while back for ex-Mormons to explain why they left the LDS church. I would invite you to add a post to the thread.

The thread is here.

I’ll say a prayer for your parents & extended family. Always be a witness and evangelize. There are many good books that they can read that have the potential to help them to the fullness of truth. You can only drop seeds. The Holy Spirit has to do the converting…

Pork
 
iepuras said:
The SP knew exactly what we were talking about. He told us that the** truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was what was important, not whether Joseph Smith was a prophet.** I told them that was not true but that Mormonism hinged entirely on whether JS was an actual prophet of God. Even Hinckley said as much when he lead the Mormon church.
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That SP’s “testimony” is on shakey ground. He’s twisting teachings I bet cause he is dealing with the cog dis in his own mind. :rolleyes:

(bolding mine)
 
SAVINGRACE said:
nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

“I felt like I had an earthquake under my feet,” said Mr. Mattsson, now an emeritus area authority. “Everything I’d been taught, everything I’d been proud to preach about and witness about just crumbled under my feet. It was such a terrible psychological and nearly physical disturbance.”

“The Roman Catholic Church has had 2,000 years to work through the hiccups in its history,” said Terryl L. Givens, a professor of English, literature and religion at the University of Richmond and a Mormon believer. “Mormonism is still an adolescent religion".
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The LDS Apostles know the truth and are hiding it from their flock. I’ve said it before that they know that the Hill Cumorah has no remains of any great battle. If it did they would have already excavated it and proven to the world the the LDS Church is true. But they do not because there is nothing there. No chariots, no swords, no bodily remains. If one can not trust that Hill Cumorah is the location of the great final ancient battle, one can not trust the rest of the Book of Mormon (aside from American Indians being from Asia, not the Middle East as proven by genetic science).

To me, the most telling part of this article was the following.

(Mr. Mattsson refused to identify the apostle, but others said it was Elder L. Tom Perry, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. Elder Perry, now 91, confirmed through a church spokesman that he did visit a branch in Sweden with skeptical members, but said he recalled satisfying their questions with a letter written by the church’s history department.)

So here is a member of the twelve:
  1. Saying that he had a manuscript in his briefcase that would debunk the charges when published but he does not show it nor is it ever published.
  2. When asked about the letter Mr Mattsson is told that it is “impertinent” to ask
  3. Then he claims falsely that he shared the letter satisfying the questions of the members.
About that word “impertinent” which means
  • Not showing proper respect; rude.
  • Not pertinent to a particular matter; irrelevant.
On the contrary, it is most reasonable and logical that LDS members ask the problematic questions of their Church leadership.
 
Has there been any statements from the upper echelon regarding any of this, or are they hoping it will just quietly fade away?
 
With many relatives in the LDS, I am grateful for their sense of family. In a tight-knit culture like theirs it would be very difficult to arrive at the conclusion that there is no proof of an apostate church. Just as they have “baptized” me by proxy, I hope to pray them into heaven.
 
bcuster said:
With many relatives in the LDS, I am grateful for their sense of family. In a tight-knit culture like theirs it would be very difficult to arrive at the conclusion that there is no proof of an apostate church. Just as they have “baptized” me by proxy, I:) hope to pray them into heaven.
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Since you are still alive no proxy work has been done for you 🙂
 
twopekinguys said:
Has there been any statements from the upper echelon regarding any of this, or are they hoping it will just quietly fade away?
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A couple of months ago, the Mormon church announced on their website that they would post papers addressing the big issues. Of course, nothing has come out yet. I’m still waiting…

I think Elder Perry’s mythical manuscript in his briefcase that addresses all of these issues was taken up to heaven by the angel Moroni. 🙂
 
iepuras said:
A couple of months ago, the Mormon church announced on their website that they would post papers addressing the big issues. Of course, nothing has come out yet. I’m still waiting…

I think Elder Perry’s mythical manuscript in his briefcase that addresses all of these issues was taken up to heaven by the angel Moroni. 🙂
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Hilarious!!!
 
iepuras said:
A couple of months ago, the Mormon church announced on their website that they would post papers addressing the big issues. Of course, nothing has come out yet. I’m still waiting…

I think Elder Perry’s mythical manuscript in his briefcase that addresses all of these issues was taken up to heaven by the angel Moroni. 🙂
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😃 🍿
 
iepuras said:
A couple of months ago, the Mormon church announced on their website that they would post papers addressing the big issues. Of course, nothing has come out yet. I’m still waiting…

I think Elder Perry’s mythical manuscript in his briefcase that addresses all of these issues was taken up to heaven by the angel Moroni. 🙂
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Have you checked Hill Cumorah? 😃
 
In relation to this thread: suppose I had a mormon friend who was very intent on studying the Mormon Church and it’s teachings. What sources do you recommend best present the arguments against Mormonism? I ask because I wouldn’t want to provide him with weak or insulting arguments. This “friend” is an attorney and an incredinly intelligent mormon born into the covenant. He is not going to accept some weak arguments.
 
2013 FAIR Conference in Provo Utah. August 1-2, 2013

One of the items under discussion: Michael R. Ash, Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux

I think this is partly in response to the NYT article.
 
There are lots of resources. For me, the website MormonThink really helped me a lot. It is pretty objective and gives both sides of the argument with plenty of references to FAIR, FARMS, Journal of Discourses and many other sources from the Mormon church. They don’t make it up.

Although I have not read these books, I have heard that they have been important for other people - No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie, An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton.

I found Tom Phillips’ experience with the Second Annointing and communications with Jeffrey Holland very compelling. mormonthink.com/tomphillips.htm#story

There is also A Letter to a CES Director, which is quite comprehensive, and is also found on MormonThink. mormonthink.com/personalstories/A_Letter_to_a_CES_Director.pdf

I also read Richard Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling. Even though Bushman gives Joseph Smith the benefit of the doubt big time, it revealed a lot of things about early Mormon church history that I had no idea about (polyandry, peep stone, multiple versions of the first vision, etc). This book lead me to do additional research, particularly on polyandry.
 
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