Mormons search the web and find doubt

[kozlosap]

Nah, not really.
Mods just have to have patience of an Apache.
Eventually our prey has to come out in the open.

That’s the best I’ve seen in months, at least worth 2 points on our blackboard!!!

 

[Geocacher]

Nah, not really.

Mods just have to have patience of an Apache.

Eventually our prey has to come out in the open.

Thanks for moderating, this thread on “Finding Doubt”, is not negative and off topic like past threads. I just gave an amount to help out CA.

Re: Mormons search the web and find doubt:

I have been Mormon since Oct 30, 1971, and have had doubts about the BoM, and Eternal Marriage. I have been holding onto membership due to family, making me like a New-Order-Mormon, Interested In Roman Catholic for many years. I still hold onto the concept of my having been a spirit prior to mortality, in part due to the study of NDE’s. Even in the 1970’s, I did have a lot of trouble believing the BoM.

A looooooooong time since posting.

 

[twopekinguys]

Thanks for moderating, this thread on “Finding Doubt”, is not negative and off topic like past threads. I just gave an amount to help out CA.

Re: Mormons search the web and find doubt:

I have been Mormon since Oct 30, 1971, and have had doubts about the BoM, and Eternal Marriage. I have been holding onto membership due to family, making me like a New-Order-Mormon, Interested In Roman Catholic for many years. I still hold onto the concept of my having been a spirit prior to mortality, in part due to the study of NDE’s. Even in the 1970’s, I did have a lot of trouble believing the BoM.

A looooooooong time since posting.

Welcome/Welcome Back!!

 

[UnderAZ]

I find it interesting that people can grow in spirituality, heading in such opposite directions. I started looking online into criticisms of my faith back in the mid-90’s. It was a totally opposite experience than what’s being shared here. I found interacting with criticisms and resolving them to my satisfaction, to be a learning, growing experience that clarified and solidified my beliefs.

Do more people learn stuff online and doubt or leave? I don’t know. I’m sure there are people doing it in most any religion. I do know that I’m hardly the only LDS person out there to plumb the depths of LDS criticism, and not only remain faithful, but grow in faith.

I agree totally with your comments as a member of 25 years.

 

[TexanKnight]

I agree totally with your comments as a member of 25 years.

good…then maybe you can answer the questions raised in the multiple visions thread, the Cumorah thread, and the various other threads where js has been proven to be nothing more than a very good con man…

I look forward to it

 

[eddie_too]

i was told by a mormon that joseph smith was directed by God to restore the church Jesus founded because His followers abandoned His teachings.

i then asked him, and i now ask other mormons, why anyone would want to restore an organization that did not have within it the means to survive.

if it failed the first time, why would it succeed if restored later?

that mormon missionary said he would get back to me on that, but he never did.

so, aside from that fact that neither evidence, nor history, nor reason support the idea that Jesus’ Church failed to preserve His presence and His teachings, i remain astounded that anyone cannot see the contradiction in advocating to re-create something that did not work right the first time.

 

[TexanKnight]

i was told by a mormon that joseph smith was directed by God to restore the church Jesus founded because His followers abandoned His teachings.

i then asked him, and i now ask other mormons, why anyone would want to restore an organization that did not have within it the means to survive.

if it failed the first time, why would it succeed if restored later?

that mormon missionary said he would get back to me on that, but he never did.

so, aside from that fact that neither evidence, nor history, nor reason support the idea that Jesus’ Church failed to preserve His presence and His teachings, i remain astounded that anyone cannot see the contradiction in advocating to re-create something that did not work right the first time.

I would not want to belong to a church that followed a God too weak to keep His Church together…

 

[twopekinguys]

Could you explain this?

*“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
*

This would be considered doctrine would it not?

How about this?

“[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

This would also be considered doctrine right?

Where is Jesus in any of this?

ETA: This one is my favorite.

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91"

 

[KathleenGee]

These last beliefs pulled out of their discourses and so on reveal to me this system is a cult.

Joseph Smith by then had become a god to have the power to decide who enters heaven or not.

 

[TexanKnight]

These last beliefs pulled out of their discourses and so on reveal to me this system is a cult.

Joseph Smith by then had become a god to have the power to decide who enters heaven or not.

the worst thing that mob did was to kill him. I sometimes personally believe that is what js wanted. He knew he faced a trial. He ran from trials. He would never face one. He knew that if he was questioned under oath and evidence presented, he would lose everything.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…he died a martyr and ‘rose from the dead’ in the Mormon church.

Anyway, looking back at past threads going back so many years, with thousands coming to read them well after they have been closed, this makes me think of John Paul II’s remarks.

The soul is made of Truth. And when it hears Truth, that Truth goes down into the soul. It may take alot of time, but Truth is working itself into a person’s soul who is called by Jesus Christ to be reunited with Him.

I saw a Mormon gathering and noted how they were singing this song to Joseph Smith at the end, and it was similar to a marching song.

But very good people. I like many Mormons and see their good efforts and kind hearts. I pray they come to the fullness of Jesus Christ and experience true freedom of soul and faith.

 

[TexanKnight]

Well, the Ariz guy made one drive-by, and then dodged the challenge.

Funny how facts scare folks

 

[Janderich]

Could you explain this?

*“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by Joseph Smith; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him.” -1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142, Apostle George Q. Cannon
*

This would be considered doctrine would it not?

How about this?

“[There is] “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth…no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God” -Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

This would also be considered doctrine right?

Where is Jesus in any of this?

ETA: This one is my favorite.

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—”Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!” But it is true.” -Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289-91"

These quotes are simple to explain. As far as acceptance goes that is a whole different matter. But here it is. Joseph Smith stands at the head of a dispensation. In any dispensation there is a prophet who has restored precious truths and posses certain keys. In our day Joseph Smith is that man. Thus if people do not accept these truths then they are stooped in their progression.

Now to forestall the other inevitable comments… None of these quotes say Joseph is equal with Christ or that Joseph has supplanted him as the final judge. There is a clear order to these things and Christ stands at the head of all dispensations (see 1 Ne 12:9-10)

 

[twopekinguys]

These quotes are simple to explain. As far as acceptance goes that is a whole different matter. But here it is. Joseph Smith stands at the head of a dispensation. In any dispensation there is a prophet who has restored precious truths and posses certain keys. In our day Joseph Smith is that man. Thus if people do not accept these truths then they are stooped in their progression.

Now to forestall the other inevitable comments… None of these quotes say Joseph is equal with Christ or that Joseph has supplanted him as the final judge. There is a clear order to these things and Christ stands at the head of all dispensations (see 1 Ne 12:9-10)

But, the last paragraph specifically says otherwise. “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith”

Kind of a problem you’ve go going on there. Right along with the whole premise that Smith was a prophet.

Join all of this with the fact that smith said he did more to keep a church together than christ himself, and you’ve got even bigger problems.

Just sayin…

 

[Janderich]

But, the last paragraph specifically says otherwise. “No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith”

Kind of a problem you’ve go going on there. Right along with the whole premise that Smith was a prophet.

Join all of this with the fact that smith said he did more to keep a church together than christ himself, and you’ve got even bigger problems.

Just sayin…

I think there may be a confusion of terms. When LDS say “this dispensation” it refers to the dispensation that began with Joseph Smith. Christ lived in the dispensation of the meridian of time. Joseph started the dispensation of the fullness of times. So there is no conflict Christ will be the final judge of all men.

 

[TexanKnight]

These quotes are simple to explain. As far as acceptance goes that is a whole different matter. But here it is. Joseph Smith stands at the head of a dispensation. In any dispensation there is a prophet who has restored precious truths and posses certain keys. In our day Joseph Smith is that man. Thus if people do not accept these truths then they are stooped in their progression.

Now to forestall the other inevitable comments… None of these quotes say Joseph is equal with Christ or that Joseph has supplanted him as the final judge. There is a clear order to these things and Christ stands at the head of all dispensations (see 1 Ne 12:9-10)

of course they do not say he is Christ’s equal. He is BETTER than Christ…at least, that is what js said

 

[TexanKnight]

I think there may be a confusion of terms. When LDS say “this dispensation” it refers to the dispensation that began with Joseph Smith. Christ lived in the dispensation of the meridian of time. Joseph started the dispensation of the fullness of times. So there is no conflict Christ will be the final judge of all men.

ah…so Jesus makes the call on all the folks who died prior to js, then js takes over…

that is laughable

 

[Slaney]

I Many ex-Mormons look at Christianity and decide that there is no evidence that Peter, Paul and all the Apostles were telling the truth and end up rejecting Jesus Christ as well.

Rejecting Jesus, so who are they following ?

Many thanks to your kindness to the missionaries in Ireland. My father was a Mormon missionary in Ireland in 1971-73 during the Troubles. My uncle was also in Vietnam at the time so my grandmother was super worried about both! My dad spent most of his time in the Belfast area and absolutely loved it.

Well I enjoyed meeting those young ladies, they prayed the " Our Father " which I did not join in, think they were trying to remove the demon within me, don’t know. They were unable to answer the questions which were asked.

Many ex-Mormons, like myself, do find God, so there is hope. Looking forward to Easter Vigil 2014!

I’m glad you did, cause He was beside you all the time…

 

[Janderich]

of course they do not say he is Christ’s equal. He is BETTER than Christ…at least, that is what js said

Hi TexanKnight, Joseph was no wilting flower. His persecuters would and did physically harm him. They would find any reason to accuse him. Instead of backing down he spoke the truth boldly, though he would be persecuted for it. In the energy of his soul he said he could hold a church together better than Christ. And what of it. The church has held together and grown. While Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations. I doubt you can argue with that truth.

Here are some other quotes from Joseph about Jesus:

Who among all the saings in these last days can consider himself as good as our Lord? Who is as perfect? who is as pure? Who is as holy as He was? are they to be found? He never transgressed or broke a commandment or law of heaven - no deceit was in His mouth, neither was guilde found in His hart. (TPJS p82).

None ever were perfect but Jesus. (TPJS p. 213)

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi TexanKnight, Joseph was no wilting flower. His persecuters would and did physically harm him.

Yes…and why? Because he was a convicted con man. because he stole and lost money in the bank scandal. Because he violated the Constitution. because he raised an army and declared war in Missouri. And that is just a partial list.

They would find any reason to accuse him.

Yes, Because he was a convicted con man. because he stole and lost money in the bank scandal. Because he violated the Constitution. because he raised an army and declared war in Missouri. And that is just a partial list

Instead of backing down he spoke the truth boldly, though he would be persecuted for it.

Except, he rarely told the truth. Including when he was using polygamy to cover up his affairs and asking William Law to wife swap.

In the energy of his soul he said he could hold a church together better than Christ. And what of it. The church has held together and grown. While Christ’s original church has splintered into thousands of denominations. I doubt you can argue with that truth.

Actually, it hasn’t. How many offshoots are there? Even js’ wife did not go with brigham.

I doubt you can argue with these truths