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ronald_g_w
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mfbukowski
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I think that your inability to acknowledge the incredibly majestic gift which God has given us to become like him-- that our Father would have the ineffable humility and love to allow such a thing- now THAT to me is blasphemy.
To think that He would not want the very best for his children, when he has put that desire into each of our hearts for our children, to think that he is somehow incapable or indifferent to our desires to be like him in every way we possibly can-- that to me is to deny the true majesty of His love.
Why could he not do that? Is he limited in his abilities to give his children the gifts he desires? Why would he NOT want us to be like him?
If he is perfect in every way, he is perfect in his desire to share himself with us. Why do you deny that?
Our beliefs do not reduce Him in any way-- on the contrary-- we acknowledge His love in ways that you cannot comprehend
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mfbukowski
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I agree that things are a bit different in most of Utah than anywhere else. There are “Utah Mormons” and then there are “everywhere else Mormons.” I lived in SLC for one year after I first joined the church, and I had to get out. Couldn’t stand it.
The stereotype for “california Mormons” is that Utah Mormons often do not understand their religion, don’t stand up for it, and take it for granted
As with any sterotype, experiences vary, but I think this one is pretty true. Possibly not true in Provo though. Don’t know it well enough.
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ronald_g_w
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ronald_g_w
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I have to take your word for it as I am literaly on the opposite side of the earth where we cannot take things for granted so I count my blessings then.
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ronald_g_w
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Can I ask you why it took you so long to go from M2C surely you knew what was what many years ago ?
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ronald_g_w
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ronald_g_w
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As LDS my understanding and belief is that God is and will always be infinitely superior to us in every way in that each of his creations adds glory to Him as well as each of his children who return with honor add glory to Him, we will never come to a state of equalness HE will always be our Father and God as Jesus will always be our Savior and God no one can and will take their place
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nebula
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ronald,
That only puts a dent in the problem and hence my difficulty communicating why this is such an issue to Mormons. Even though you believe God is above you as your Father always, even as you become a god as he did before you, you nonetheless believe that both you and the father are different merely quantitatively. Just as your father is always your father even as you grow up to become a father yourself, you have achieved adulthood and fatherhood, so can you achieve godhood even th ough heavenly father will always be heavenly father.
THe orthodox position is that a rock can never become a human being at all. If it has any beauty or glory it is because a human sculptor transforms it. So God is qualitatively, different in quality, from us humans.
Even if you disagree ronald, I hope you begin to at least understand why so many orthodox christians are offended by mormonism.
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C2M2C
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It’s a pretty long story which I can go into greater detail later, but for now:
I was 18 when a friend of mine asked me to come over to her house for FHE where they had invited the missionaries over.
2nd discussion, “will you get baptized”, Moroni 10:4-5, prayer, answer, baptism…
I unfortunately, at 18, new virtually nothing about the Catholic Church even after all those years of CCD, first communion, confirmation, etc. After having been given the “milk” that the missionaries give, it all sounded good, made me feel good, so sure, after prayer, who wouldn’t feel good about it?
I was immediately put into a calling as all new members are, ordained a priest, then a couple months later an elder. I dove in head first. Full tithe payer, quit all foul language, quite drinking, weekly meeting attendance, and so on and so forth- you know the routine. I kept thinking back to the “answer” that I got when I first prayed, but didn’t really ever feel anything else afterwords.
I figured that I felt it once so it must be true, so I will continue to follow blindly. I’ve been through the entire “calling” program from priests secretary, young mens, Sunday School, instructor, web site admin, among many others.
I found a quote once from a GA (don’t remember who) who said if you don’t have a testimony, keep faking until you get one; so I did. I did everything that I was asked to do without question- ever.
I attended the temple on a fairly regular basis and when i was 25 got married in the SL temple. My wife came from an LDS family (pioneer stock as they say here in Utah) so needless to say her family was thrilled.
We continued doing what we were “supposed” to be doing- no rated R movies, FHE every week, attended all church functions (not just Sundays), prayed daily with my family and by myself and when things happened that just didn’t seem right or just didn’t add up I chalked it up to “misunderstandings” or ala JS “I cannot deny”.
Have to go, going to dinner at in-laws, I’ll finish later tonight.
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nebula
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Wow, I am looking forward to hearing the conclusion.
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nebula
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tzusuki,
This is so simple. I’m using an LDS publication used to teach new members. There isn’t anything about demiurges in there.
I’m familiar with your take on LDS theology, but it’s just that, your take. If I were to define the standard Mormon position, it’s what I just said to ronald.
That is, if I am going to debate with your position, and it is a unique one by all standards.
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C2M2C
Guest
…continued from an earlier entry.
So my wife and I continued doing what we were told to do. I studied the “milk” and am pretty proficient in that area but never really questioned the “meat”, mainly because I rarely came across it.
All the while I am just a little unsure of where I am. Something in the back of my mind didn’t seem right. I sometimes felt as though I didn’t really believe the lessons I was teaching and honestly I felt the temple ceremony was a little weird (okay fine, a lot weird).
My wife & I went a few times a year until about 3-4 years ago when I started to feel like I wasn’t worthy (not doing enough) so I decided I had better kick it up a notch. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing but felt as though I wasn’t getting something. So my wife and I started going to the temple monthly. The weirdness never went away. I kinda’ felt uplifted when I was there but sometimes felt like I was forcing the issue and making myself believe things that were not really there.
Then about two years ago I was Googling something and somehow came across Solomon Spaulding
. Like the many other things that I had come across over the years, I simply chalked this up to coincidence. But it didn’t go away. I prayed more often and more fervently to receive a re-affirmation. I needed to know for sure. I hunkered down even more trying to put myself in the best possible position to receive a witness from the spirit.And then lo and behold, about tree months ago, another Google search… wasn’t looking for anything that had to do with church, religion or even mormonism. I have no idea what it was I was looking for but one thing lead to another and then I came across a web site about mormons “studying their way out of mormonism”. It has to do with the advent of the Internet and information being more easily accessible and how more and more people are leaving the church because they are finding what I found. So I read on…
Continued next post…
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C2M2C
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…Continued from an earlier post.
I went to mormon sites and then decided that I would check out Catholicism too since that is where I came from. Oddly enough, aside from wanting to investigate Catholicism because that is where I came from I was also very curious due to a lesson that was given in the Teachers Quorum from another instructor about 5months ago about Apostolic succession. The lesson was about how Catholics have it all wrong.
So I decided to see for myself. The more “non faith promoting” history I read the more I became convinced (I know, the mormons here are going to jump all over me for the “non faith promoting” comment). The more I read about Catholic history (the good, the bad, and even the ugly) the more I became convinced. The whole “faith promoting” kills me. I have discovered that to mormons there is no such thing as objective mormon history if it sheds any sort of negative light. If it does then it is “anti- mormon”, automatically, without question, without equivocation, and boy do they get defensive. Catholics on the other hand, in regards to their history say “it is what it is…”
So I brought my wife up to speed on what was happening and what I found. And surprisingly she told me that she too never really felt anything (the spirit), never really liked going to the temple, and no matter how hard she tried, she didn’t “get it” either.
To mormons our lack of an answer means that we either weren’t worthy enough, faithful enough, or we must have committed a grievous sin. That kills me too:shrug:
I’ll continue again tomorrow. As I am re-hashing the whole thing while writing this, I am getting frustrated and quite frankly sick of thinking about it so I need to take a break.
See you tomorrow.
I went to mormon sites and then decided that I would check out Catholicism too since that is where I came from. Oddly enough, aside from wanting to investigate Catholicism because that is where I came from I was also very curious due to a lesson that was given in the Teachers Quorum from another instructor about 5months ago about Apostolic succession. The lesson was about how Catholics have it all wrong.
So I decided to see for myself. The more “non faith promoting” history I read the more I became convinced (I know, the mormons here are going to jump all over me for the “non faith promoting” comment). The more I read about Catholic history (the good, the bad, and even the ugly) the more I became convinced. The whole “faith promoting” kills me. I have discovered that to mormons there is no such thing as objective mormon history if it sheds any sort of negative light. If it does then it is “anti- mormon”, automatically, without question, without equivocation, and boy do they get defensive. Catholics on the other hand, in regards to their history say “it is what it is…”
So I brought my wife up to speed on what was happening and what I found. And surprisingly she told me that she too never really felt anything (the spirit), never really liked going to the temple, and no matter how hard she tried, she didn’t “get it” either.
To mormons our lack of an answer means that we either weren’t worthy enough, faithful enough, or we must have committed a grievous sin. That kills me too:shrug:
I’ll continue again tomorrow. As I am re-hashing the whole thing while writing this, I am getting frustrated and quite frankly sick of thinking about it so I need to take a break.
See you tomorrow.
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PaulDupre
Guest
I wonder how many LDS couples would have a similar experience if they were honest with one another about whether they “know the church is true”.
When I was LDS (active in the extreme) I realized it was all a sham several years before I actually left. My wife was a 6th-generation Mormon, descendent of a polygamist family. When I finally broke down and told her I wanted to leave the LDS church, she confessed that she had wanted to leave for years. “Why didn’t you tell me?” I asked. “I was afraid you’d leave me” was the reply. “Why didn’t you say anything?” she asked me. My reply? “I was afraid you’d leave me.”
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why_me
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I have no idea what you are tryin to say here. Mormons do not have the conception that you seem to portray. In fact, for mormons, heavenly father is far superior to any mortal. Many thank heavenly father every day through morning and evening prayers and also over the food table. And since mormons view heavenly father as once man, mormons, can have a very personal view of a loving father.
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nebula
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A far superior being isn’t GOD, that’s what the big deal is. That isn’t enough. A Being who is different from us by nature in essential ways-- immutable, absolutely infinite-- that is God.
Think of this way. Suppose we’re both trying to describe someone we know. I say woman you say man. I say 65, you say 15. At what point would you agree that we are talking about 2 different people altogether?
You say that there was a time in which God was not God, I say he was always God. You say that God operates by the laws of the cosmos I say that God created the laws of the cosmos. You say God was once like us,a mortal on an earth, who progressed to become God like we can, I say that God is an independent being and we are dependent beings…
We’re talking about two different beings here, that is what the problem is.
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ronald_g_w
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Was Jesus resurrected and did He recieve an immortal body of flesh and bone ? YES or NO
Does he have this immortal body now ?
Will we one day be resurrected and recieve an immortal body ?
Will we be joint heirs with Jesus of all that the Father hath ?
Will Jesus’s deciples live in his presence in the eternities ?
Who inherits this earth ?
Does he have this immortal body now ?
Will we one day be resurrected and recieve an immortal body ?
Will we be joint heirs with Jesus of all that the Father hath ?
Will Jesus’s deciples live in his presence in the eternities ?
Who inherits this earth ?
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nebula
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ronald,
I don’t know what I think about Jesus. But from a trinitarian point of view, I would say that God the Son is eternal, immutable and absolutely infinite. The finite person of Jesus has a beginning. The part of Jesus which makes him God, in the trinity, is his hypostatic union with God the Son.
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