Mormons: What does it mean that Michael holds the keys of Salvation?

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“What is man that you should care for him? You have made him little less than the angels, and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him rule over the works of your hands, putting all things under his feet” (Ps. 8:5-7)
In my scriptures it is slightly different:
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
You also have a bit of a contradiction here too. This is a reference to Jesus Christ. Are you then saying that Jesus Christ is less than the angels?
I can see how this can be interpreted the way you see it, but not without a lot of squinting going on and reading meaning into it that just isn’t there.
🤷 Why else do you believe Christ suffered and died, if not to atone for our sins? You think this was for something that we do by accident? Or do you think that sin is something that God wants? Really, what do you think sin is?
Let me see if I am understanding you. You believe Adam and all his posterity, Man in it’s entirety, are collaborators with Satan, and his demons? If that is the case, the Bible was written by the demons of Satan, yet you hold it up as Holy writ.
This is exactly what the Pharisees did to Jesus Christ. They claimed His works were through the power of the devil. Now you claim the Scriptures have come through the demons of Satan.

Or maybe, you’ve gone overboard in what you are trying to convey?
 
SteveVH,
Somewhere along the way in this conversation, you may have missed that what I was saying is that Michael the Archangel became the first human man on this earth, Adam. So “his parents” doesn’t apply since he and Eve were the first parents.

The sequence for Adam’s existence is thus:
  1. Michael the Archangel in the pre-mortal world where there was a “war in heaven”. He was a valiant leader.
  2. Adam, the first parent along with Eve. He was given an important stewardship on this earth.
  3. When he died, he went to the spirit world and became once again Michael the Archangel.
When Daniel sees him in vision as recorded in Daniel 12:1 during the end times, he stands up and once again takes on a “warrior prince” role. At that point he may be resurrected or he may still be a spirit (I don’t know since he has and will have a very unique role), but in either case he can still be described as “Michael the Archangel” or “Michael the Great Prince”.
This must be a common belief among those faith traditions that sprung out of the Adventist movement. I know the JW’s believe this as well. There is a basic ignorance of what it means to be created; what it means to be a creature. In my opinion this is in line with the belief that we will morph into gods. Joseph Smith just took the JW’s version of angel/human, human/angel concept to its logical conclusion. We can become gods. Cats do not become dogs, oranges do not become apples, humans do not become angels or gods. We are created to be exactly what God created us to be, no more, no less. We will always be what God created us to be, even after the resurrection. Our glorified bodies will always be glorified human bodies. We do not become “little angels” when we die. It is nothing more than mass confusion.
 
Looking to the story of creation passed down through time, people have always seen separate and complete beings…no morphing from one type of creature to another…for that becomes even more mythical…
Yet it is here in this forum where I have been told that angels are shape shifters and can appear in any form they desire. You are right, that does seem quite mythical.
The angels are spirits, human beings are spirit and flesh, both have intelligence and free will. Man and creatures can propagate and multiply; angels/demons were created complete at creation and do not marry or conceive offspring…
What we are saying is that some/most angels are spirits, spirits of pre-mortal and post-mortal people. They can also be resurrected people.
This has been the understanding of creation going back to ancient times.
I understand this is your belief.
 
In my scriptures it is slightly different:
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
You also have a bit of a contradiction here too. This is a reference to Jesus Christ. Are you then saying that Jesus Christ is less than the angels?
I can see how this can be interpreted the way you see it, but not without a lot of squinting going on and reading meaning into it that just isn’t there.
This is not a reference to Jesus Christ. “What is man”…LDS seem to have a problem confusing themselves with God.
Let me see if I am understanding you. You believe Adam and all his posterity, Man in it’s entirety, are collaborators with Satan, and his demons? If that is the case, the Bible was written by the demons of Satan, yet you hold it up as Holy writ.
This is exactly what the Pharisees did to Jesus Christ. They claimed His works were through the power of the devil. Now you claim the Scriptures have come through the demons of Satan.
Or maybe, you’ve gone overboard in what you are trying to convey?
Why resort to such an obtuse response?

I don’t think I can take you seriously. But here goes. What is sin? What is forgiveness?

When was an angel ever born?
 
This is not a reference to Jesus Christ. “What is man”…LDS seem to have a problem confusing themselves with God.
I beg to differ. This is a messianic psalm. Look at the words of the psalm :
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Who is the son of man?
Who has been crowned with glory and honor?
Who’s feet have all things been put under?
Why resort to such an obtuse response?
I don’t think I can take you seriously. But here goes. What is sin? What is forgiveness?
When was an angel ever born?
I find the conclusion laghable also, but I am not the one that provided the set up for it.
You refer to him in derogitory terms but he Bible refers to him as a son of God.

What is sin? the scriptures have defined: “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”

What is forgiveness? It is to pardon or excuse someone from blame for an offense or misdeed. Forgiveness from God is made possible by the atonement of Christ.

There are no references to an angel being born, but there are instances of an angel being identified. You are looking for proof of my understanding. You will not find it except in modern revelation. There are only hints in the Bible.

I don’t want to get too carried away and try to convince you of anything - I know that won’t happen. The topic of the thread is the LDS understanding of Michael holding the keys of salvation.
If you want to understand, it will have to be from our perspective because our base of understanding is different from yours.
 
We should all have a holiday celebrating the choice of Adam and Eve and their decision to sin against God! Hats off everyone! :banghead: I’ll be happy to converse with you on other topics but this is truly an exercise in futility and I feel foolish even participating.
O felix culpa quae talem et tantum meruit habere redemptorem–St. Augustine.
 
…As we are self-honest, we can be guided in our heart toward making better choices in the future if that is what we need to learn to do–but if we merely say “I sinned” and don’t think about the “why” and acknowledge the “why”, then we are completely likely to do the very same thing another time. (Of course, in this circumstance Adam wasn’t going to be given that chance.)

Accountability brings the “why” into the picture. Adam was being accountable.
ParkerD:

Thank you for your thourough response. I can see (although I think you are mistaken in your interpretation), where you get the idea of the “conflicting commandments”.

One thought I wanted to expand on with you, however is this idea of “if we are called to accountability, we have a right to explain our actions”. One of the amazing things about the catholic faith is the regular opportunity to confess our sins to a preist, which usually involves discussion of those sins, motives, so forth. My experience has been (and perhaps I have a particularly un-reflective mind) that when I try to do just what you suggest, that is, explore the reasons I did what I did, the answers are never satisfactory, I could always have done better, I always knew better. There is never a tragic conflict between competing visions of “good” behavior - just me putting my will before God, my family and others. At the end of the day, there is really only one response to a self-examination of sin before God: “Lord have mercy!”

Or, as Longfellow put it:

Hereafter? -And do you think to look
On the terrible pages of that Book
To find her failings, faults, and errors?
Ah, you will then have other cares,
In your own shortcomings and despairs,
In your own secret sins and terrors!
 
I shared a beautiful contemplative reflection by Fr Richard Rohr about Christ tending to refer to Himself more as the ‘Son of Man’, than the Son of God.

Eucharistic believers know that God came to share with us His divine nature when we receive the Eucharist…but it is Christ Himself and His grace working through us, becoming part of us, our souls and bodies, mind and heart, to become day by day more Christlike.

In turn, God has humanity through Christ restored to Him.

I posted that awhile back. It would be hard to find it now.

But the priest was saying that Christ was meant to come down to the very depths of our being, our very DNA needing Christ…Christ so small in the Eucharist becoming part of us, mankind.

It is not intending that Son of Man mean we become gods.

I am not clear on this wording, but Son of Man was a reflection more on the restoration of humanity back to God through Christ, – our true calling in this life – and Christ also as servant coming to us in this small form…
 
About angelic forms changing, I have read the saints down through time, and they said the angels are made of light but have male, human faces.

An angel is a creature with its own persona. We hear stories today of a dog appearing out of nowhere to save a human life.

I would say the angel is servings its purpose as a guardian but changing into an ordinary image of every day life. It is still the same angel.

St. Michael’s purpose is that he is head of the good angels, and in the Catholic tradition, is in the role of directly fighting the serpent.

St. Michael was already saved when he saw who God was and acknowledged Him. But he does not have flesh in need of redemption. We do.

So it is redeemed humans, chosen, as Ss. Peter and Paul, who have the keys to the Church. The papacy is the authoritative head where the transmission of grace to turn ordinary bread and wine into the Eucharist is given and continued through the bishops who ordain and lay hands at ordination of the priest.
 
About angelic forms changing, I have read the saints down through time, and they said the angels are made of light but have male, human faces.

An angel is a creature with its own persona. We hear stories today of a dog appearing out of nowhere to save a human life.

I would say the angel is servings its purpose as a guardian but changing into an ordinary image of every day life. It is still the same angel.

St. Michael’s purpose is that he is head of the good angels, and in the Catholic tradition, is in the role of directly fighting the serpent.

St. Michael was already saved when he saw who God was and acknowledged Him. But he does not have flesh in need of redemption. We do.

So it is redeemed humans, chosen, as Ss. Peter and Paul, who have the keys to the Church. The papacy is the authoritative head where the transmission of grace to turn ordinary bread and wine into the Eucharist is given and continued through the bishops who ordain and lay hands at ordination of the priest.

The papacy holds the keys to the Body and Blood of Christ, because it was through Peter that Christ instituted His church.
 
ParkerD:

Thank you for your thourough response. I can see (although I think you are mistaken in your interpretation), where you get the idea of the “conflicting commandments”.

One thought I wanted to expand on with you, however is this idea of “if we are called to accountability, we have a right to explain our actions”. One of the amazing things about the catholic faith is the regular opportunity to confess our sins to a preist, which usually involves discussion of those sins, motives, so forth. My experience has been (and perhaps I have a particularly un-reflective mind) that when I try to do just what you suggest, that is, explore the reasons I did what I did, the answers are never satisfactory, I could always have done better, I always knew better. There is never a tragic conflict between competing visions of “good” behavior - just me putting my will before God, my family and others. At the end of the day, there is really only one response to a self-examination of sin before God: “Lord have mercy!”

Or, as Longfellow put it:

Hereafter? -And do you think to look
On the terrible pages of that Book
To find her failings, faults, and errors?
Ah, you will then have other cares,
In your own shortcomings and despairs,
In your own secret sins and terrors!
Nicely put JHow. It is difficult to describe the immense peace that fills one’s soul when we finally stop making excuses for our sins, honestly confess them with true contrition, and simply fall at the feet of our Lord and experience His immense mercy and forgiveness in the sacrament of reconciliation. True contrition is born when feel deep sorrow for offending such a good and loving God. It is not about us, it is all about Him.

Thanks for your post.
 
ParkerD:

Thank you for your thourough response. I can see (although I think you are mistaken in your interpretation), where you get the idea of the “conflicting commandments”.

One thought I wanted to expand on with you, however is this idea of “if we are called to accountability, we have a right to explain our actions”. One of the amazing things about the catholic faith is the regular opportunity to confess our sins to a priest, which usually involves discussion of those sins, motives, so forth. My experience has been (and perhaps I have a particularly un-reflective mind) that when I try to do just what you suggest, that is, explore the reasons I did what I did, the answers are never satisfactory, I could always have done better, I always knew better. There is never a tragic conflict between competing visions of “good” behavior - just me putting my will before God, my family and others. At the end of the day, there is really only one response to a self-examination of sin before God: “Lord have mercy!”

Or, as Longfellow put it:

Hereafter? -And do you think to look
On the terrible pages of that Book
To find her failings, faults, and errors?
Ah, you will then have other cares,
In your own shortcomings and despairs,
In your own secret sins and terrors!
JHow,
I hope I can put this in a way that preserves your total and complete free will to do precisely as you wish in those matters your post expressed.

First, thanks for the lines from the poem by Longfellow, “In the Churchyard at Cambridge”. It reminds me of Gray’s “Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard”, which has always been one of my favorite poems with its striking poetic language/alliteration. One of its lines,

“Full many a flower is born to blush unseen”

can remind that God sees all things by comparison to what mankind sees, and certainly sees our inner hearts and motives.

The prospect of trying to change and really, deeply commit to making those changes in my life through sincere repentance after being guided by the Holy Spirit, often through prayerful contemplation or just through personal reflection toward figuring out what impure motives lie behind some of my actions, is not an unwelcome prospect so long as I acknowledge that the Savior really is there to help me make those changes and guide me toward making them.

Self-honesty thus may work differently for me than for you. I would probably have difficulty trying to express and put into words the reasons underlying my sins to a priest (particularly with the prospect of being thought of as expressing “rationalizations” or “excuses” rather than just be allowed to say, “I think I have figured out why I did what I did, but I’m still learning to know myself.”)

I am strongly impressed from Biblical teachings that repentance moves along a line where a person learns to know themselves better, and makes changes as they do come to know themselves better and to “see things as they really are”–even within their own behavior. All that coming to know oneself is directly guided by the living, loving Savior with no intermediary and no need to have someone else on the outside listening since He knows the hearts and feelings and even things not able to be well put into words.

This exchange has tapped into one of the underlying, striking differences in beliefs that I have tried to allude to many times, but here you go bringing it out front.

Peace and good day to you and all.
 
…I would probably have difficulty trying to express and put into words the reasons underlying my sins to a priest (particularly with the prospect of being thought of as expressing “rationalizations” or “excuses” rather than just be allowed to say, "I think I have figured out why I did what I did, but I’m still learning to know myself…
ParkerD:

I should be clear on this, in my experience, priests hearing confession are not likely to tell you are making “excuses” or “rationalizations” - those words came from me and my judgement. I always have the impression that whatever I have to say, the priest has heard it before - or something like it, for sure. They are most concerned about your attitude towards the sin - are you truly sorry. If the priest knows you well, he will often offer advice and comment (conversation is allowed) - in addition to absolution and penance. You would certainly be allowed to say that “you think you figured out why you did what you did, and that you are still learning to know yourself.” While there is a “script,” the format is probably much more free-form than you imagine.

Cheers,

JHow
 
The prospect of trying to change and really, deeply commit to making those changes in my life through sincere repentance after being guided by the Holy Spirit, often through prayerful contemplation or just through personal reflection toward figuring out what impure motives lie behind some of my actions, is not an unwelcome prospect so long as I acknowledge that the Savior really is there to help me make those changes and guide me toward making them.

Self-honesty thus may work differently for me than for you. I would probably have difficulty trying to express and put into words the reasons underlying my sins to a priest (particularly with the prospect of being thought of as expressing “rationalizations” or “excuses” rather than just be allowed to say, “I think I have figured out why I did what I did, but I’m still learning to know myself.”)
Parker,
While figuring out "why I did what I did may be a fruit of confessing our sins, I think your statement demonstrates a fundamental difference in our beliefs. The purpose of the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation is not to come to know ourselves better, but to come to know God better through experiencing His mercy. We confess our sins, which separate us from Him, that we may be reconciled with Him. While not the only motivation, the primary motivation is that we have offended Him through our sins, period.

When we approach the sacrament with the intent of trying explain the reason(s) for our sins, we are missing the mark completely. The intent is reconciliation with God who we have offended, regardless of the reasons. This is not to discount the fact that there are many factors involved in sinning and God surely knows these things. It is the difference in someone (like me) trying to explain why I offended you, rather than simply admitting that I recognize my offense and telling you I am sorry. I have said things to you out of frustration, but that does not let me off the hook for being uncharitable. So, if you will, please accept my sincere apology for having offended you. No excuses.

God bless.

Steve
 
I beg to differ. This is a messianic psalm. Look at the words of the psalm :

Who is the son of man?
The Hebrew from that vers is וּבֶן-אָדָם…ben Adam. The English translation from Hebrew is “human being”. The literal meaning is “son of man”.
Who has been crowned with glory and honor?
Humans were crowned by God’s glory and honor at creation.

This is what the Psalmist is singing about, praising God for what He has given us.
Who’s feet have all things been put under?
See Genesis and the account of creation…humans are given dominion.
I find the conclusion laghable also, but I am not the one that provided the set up for it.
You should not put words or ideas that are not there.
You refer to him in derogitory terms but he Bible refers to him as a son of God.
I don’t believe you’ve read all the things that Satan is called. The father of lies. Ever hear that one?

You should realize that you are coming across as defending Satan.
What is sin? the scriptures have defined: “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
1John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin commits also iniquity. And sin is iniquity. 5 And you know that he appeared to take away our sins: and in him there is no sin. 6 Whosoever abides in him sins not: and whosoever sins has not seen him nor known him.

When a person sins are they serving God, or are they serving Satan?
What is forgiveness? It is to pardon or excuse someone from blame for an offense or misdeed. Forgiveness from God is made possible by the atonement of Christ.p.
If you know this, then why when discussing the sin of Adam or anyone else, you seem to forget it?
There are no references to an angel being born, but there are instances of an angel being identified.
Identified as what?
You are looking for proof of my understanding. You will not find it except in modern revelation.
Which revelation is that? Smith, White, Koresh?
There are only hints in the Bible.
No it doesn’t.
I don’t want to get too carried away and try to convince you of anything - I know that won’t happen. The topic of the thread is the LDS understanding of Michael holding the keys of salvation.
If you want to understand, it will have to be from our perspective because our base of understanding is different from yours.
I’d say your base of understanding is wrong.
 
I wish the Mormons, such good people!!!, would come back and just stay with the Judeo-Christian understanding of peoples in the Old Testament…there is no need to do anything differently…

and greater unity would bring about much greater good…and spend more time sharing what we hold in common, and how we are all working to building Christ’s kingdom.
 
Parker,
While figuring out "why I did what I did may be a fruit of confessing our sins, I think your statement demonstrates a fundamental difference in our beliefs. The purpose of the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation is not to come to know ourselves better, but to come to know God better through experiencing His mercy. We confess our sins, which separate us from Him, that we may be reconciled with Him. While not the only motivation, the primary motivation is that we have offended Him through our sins, period.

When we approach the sacrament with the intent of trying explain the reason(s) for our sins, we are missing the mark completely. The intent is reconciliation with God who we have offended, regardless of the reasons. This is not to discount the fact that there are many factors involved in sinning and God surely knows these things. It is the difference in someone (like me) trying to explain why I offended you, rather than simply admitting that I recognize my offense and telling you I am sorry. I have said things to you out of frustration, but that does not let me off the hook for being uncharitable. So, if you will, please accept my sincere apology for having offended you. No excuses.

God bless.

Steve
SteveVH and also JHow,

Thanks to each of you for your latest comments. Steve, I was never offended by what you wrote, but I appreciate your apology and explanations.

On a P.S. note, it might be well for you to consider reading up a bit more about the historical time frames of the JW movement and the Adventist movement as compared with Mormonism, rather than jump to an assumption that they should be lumped together since they are each so distinct as to bear absolutely no relationship to one another, and the JW movement began in the 1880’s or so. Both of those believe Michael the Prince is another name for Christ, so even that is vastly different. (I can see why they jump to that conclusion without the benefit of revelation, although probably if at the time those theories were developed they had had access to the Book of Enoch they would probably have come to a different conclusion.)

JHow and Steve,

Feeling sorrow for sin is certainly essential and important. I think that is a foundation from which to bring true change into one’s life through the atoning grace of Christ. He is ready to do that for those who are ready to draw strength from Him in making sincere and deeply felt changes–indeed, wherein covenants made and kept envelope and enliven the changes.

All those steps are what sanctification is all about, as taught by Paul and by Peter.

God bless each of you, also.
 
I wish the Mormons, such good people!!!, would come back and just stay with the Judeo-Christian understanding of peoples in the Old Testament…there is no need to do anything differently…

and greater unity would bring about much greater good…and spend more time sharing what we hold in common, and how we are all working to building Christ’s kingdom.
Kathleen, it is one of the great pleasures we will see unopen before our eyes by the hand of God; before the return of our Lord there will be a unity of the faith. Somehow all of the followers of Christ and those who worship the only true and living God will unite. It makes me shiver to contemplate how great a day that it will be. All will shout his Holy Name and sing Hosannas to our King. I suspect that all will have some degree of adjustment before that day, but what a day it will be.
 
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