Mormons: What does it mean that Michael holds the keys of Salvation?

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SteveVH,
I’ve never trusted the NAB translation. It has many deliberate changes in meaning.

Here is the verse in the earlier Douay Rheims translation:

Latin Vulgate Bible
Douay-Rheims Bible
The Apocalypse Of Saint John
Chapter 19

[10] And I fell down before his feet, to adore him. And he saith to me: See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren, who have the testimony of Jesus. Adore God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
First of all I take issue with your accusation that the NAB version has many “deliberate
changes in meaning”
. Why would the Church, who gave the Bible to you and the rest of the world, deliberately mistranslate its own document?

I am happy to use the KJV or the Douay Theims translation. It say the same thing I said and the same thing the NAB version says.

“I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren…” Translation - I am your servant and the servant of your brethren. Not “I am your servant and I am your brethren.” This is a clear mistranslation. He is the servant of John and of John’s brethren.
 
It was “not good that man should be alone.” Eve was an “helpmeet.” Those words are there for the purpose that they be read, not ignored.
These words come from the previous chapter - the story about the creation of man and woman. The next episode is the story of the snake and the fall. You are taking this section that deals with why God made man and woman out of context and applying it to the next story to make your case that Adam’s motive for disobediance was so he would always be with Eve. Just because one story follows the other doesn’t mean they are linked.
Adam said what his “motive” was: “thou gavest to be with me”…
The full reply is this: “And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”

Adam is asked by God a straightforward question (did you eat from the tree) and he provides a less than straightforward answer. This is all we have to go on here in the text.
I didn’t write that the “woman gave it to me” was a justification.
No. I supplied that word, justification, because that is what it is when you try to qualify disobedience to God, which is what Adam is doing: “YOU gave me the woman, SHE gave me the apple… and I ate it.”

This is why I feel you are giving Eve the short end of the stick: according to you, Eve is making a conscious choice to sin; but, according to you, Adam makes a conscious choice with the additional (tragic) motive of wanting to be with Eve. You have introduced complications to Adam’s side of the story, while Eve was just sinning.
Adam didn’t lie.
I am reading his response as trying to suggest the possibility that perhaps he didn’t exactly know what he was doing - which is not true.
Adam didn’t “rationalize”.
In the Army I learned that the maximum effective range of an excuse is 0 meters. The only right answer to God’s question is: yes. All other information is an attempt to mitigate his action. This is my reading, anyway, and it is based on the text.
 
Yes Parker, we have been through this before and I just can’t buy any of it. It would seem, if what you say is true, that rather than focusing on the commandment that was broken (the eating of the forbidden fruit) God would have said something along the lines of*“Thou hast chosen wisely, my son, and kept mine commandments which are superior to the commandment which thou hast broken.”*. Not a word is found that supports your premise.

The fact that God, in His goodness and wisdom, gave man a helper, does not mean that man can’t screw it up. Of course it is not good that man should be alone. This does not constitute a commandment, its just a fact of life and was a gift.
SteveVH,

The Savior used strong enough language about that particular marriage situation, that I think it is quite right and proper that it be noted as a commandment:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Does every “commandment” have to be prefaced with the word “commandment” in order to be viewed as something important to do, good to do, right to do, and something to do to bring one the fullness of happiness?

Do you think God is going to forcefully “command” everyone to do every particular thing that will bring them happiness? (thus taking away some of their freedom of choice by commanding?)

Is every gift of God to be viewed as “just a fact of life and a gift”–or just man being given woman?
Breaking down your statement No. 7 - “He partook of the forbidden fruit (SINNED) by choice, and in so doing was keeping the commandments(NOT SINNING) he had been given in regarding his relationship with Eve.” So, he sinned in order not to sin. He was placed in a position, by God, in which he had no choice but to sin.
No–the situation came up because of Eve’s choice, period. God did place into position the possibility that this could happen, but my goodness we are in situations every day where there is the possibility that we can make choices that impact other choices, and may constrain those other choices.
He had to sin in order to keep God’s other commandments.
He had to choose which one or ones to keep, yes, because Eve chose what she chose and thus he was in a different position than when the morning began.
I’m sorry, and I don’t mean this in any way personally, but that is absolutely preposterous. It means that God, as well as Adam had found Himself in quite the pickle. It is much like commanding someone to drive to a place 90 miles away within a half hour without breaking the speed limit. If you speed I will punish you and if you don’t reach your destination in a half hour I will punish you. Do you see how absolutely ludicrous this is
No–it means God really and truly did give Eve and Adam freedom of choice, which included freedom to decide whether gaining wisdom was worth the incredible downside risk and downside impact–the possibility of making wrong choices, the loss of the physical presence of God while they gained wisdom through making many choices in their lives, and pains of many kinds plus eventual (within the thousand year “day”) death.

Hats off to Eve (she chose first) and to Adam (he supported her choice and kept commandments he had been given) to have been willing to take those downside risks so that they and we could have freedom to choose and to gain wisdom through making choices and through experiencing difficulties in life including pain.

“No pain, no gain.”
 
I think the freedom to chose comes from God…He is the one deserving of praise.

Adam knew not to eat of the fruit, and he did.
 
Versus St. Michael who said, “Who is like unto God?”

This mortal has brought down banks, countries, economic and cultural values, and pushes euthanasia and atheism…I would say alot of tearing down, alot of negative energy…

“I fancied myself as some kind of god…”…“If the truth be known, I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies about me since childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise they might get me into trouble.”

“It is sort of a disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out…”

Atleast he comes close to truth when he says such thinking is akin to a disease…

The search goes on as to who is this self-appointed mystery god.
 
SteveVH,
The words “of thy brethren” (Revelation 19:10) seem to have a vastly different connotation for you than for me. To me, those words mean “of thy brethren” meaning “of those who are really and truly thy brethren, thy fellow mortal brethren of whom I (that angel) was once one.” “Don’t worship me, worship Him.”

So that’s “how I know from the Bible that angels can be human.” John knew from his vision that angels can come to earth and have once been human–“one of his brethren”.
Parker,
Another thing just occurred to me. As you are well aware, genealogy was extremely important to the people of biblical times. We see it throughout Scripture, even in the New Testament (See Mathew). It had everything to do with their identity. For a figure as important as Michael the Archangel, who you say became human, can you please tell me who his parents were? I will even accept any mention of his ever being born other than the one obscure verse in Revelation which we have discussed and which I believe you are completely misinterpreting.
 
SteveVH,

The Savior used strong enough language about that particular marriage situation, that I think it is quite right and proper that it be noted as a commandment:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Does every “commandment” have to be prefaced with the word “commandment” in order to be viewed as something important to do, good to do, right to do, and something to do to bring one the fullness of happiness?

Do you think God is going to forcefully “command” everyone to do every particular thing that will bring them happiness? (thus taking away some of their freedom of choice by commanding?)

Is every gift of God to be viewed as “just a fact of life and a gift”–or just man being given woman?

No–the situation came up because of Eve’s choice, period. God did place into position the possibility that this could happen, but my goodness we are in situations every day where there is the possibility that we can make choices that impact other choices, and may constrain those other choices.

He had to choose which one or ones to keep, yes, because Eve chose what she chose and thus he was in a different position than when the morning began.

No–it means God really and truly did give Eve and Adam freedom of choice, which included freedom to decide whether gaining wisdom was worth the incredible downside risk and downside impact–the possibility of making wrong choices, the loss of the physical presence of God while they gained wisdom through making many choices in their lives, and pains of many kinds plus eventual (within the thousand year “day”) death.

Hats off to Eve (she chose first) and to Adam (he supported her choice and kept commandments he had been given) to have been willing to take those downside risks so that they and we could have freedom to choose and to gain wisdom through making choices and through experiencing difficulties in life including pain.

“No pain, no gain.”
We should all have a holiday celebrating the choice of Adam and Eve and their decision to sin against God! Hats off everyone! :banghead: I’ll be happy to converse with you on other topics but this is truly an exercise in futility and I feel foolish even participating.
 
These words come from the previous chapter - the story about the creation of man and woman. The next episode is the story of the snake and the fall. You are taking this section that deals with why God made man and woman out of context and applying it to the next story to make your case that Adam’s motive for disobediance was so he would always be with Eve. Just because one story follows the other doesn’t mean they are linked.

The full reply is this: “And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”

Adam is asked by God a straightforward question (did you eat from the tree) and he provides a less than straightforward answer. This is all we have to go on here in the text.

No. I supplied that word, justification, because that is what it is when you try to qualify disobedience to God, which is what Adam is doing: “YOU gave me the woman, SHE gave me the apple… and I ate it.”

This is why I feel you are giving Eve the short end of the stick: according to you, Eve is making a conscious choice to sin; but, according to you, Adam makes a conscious choice with the additional (tragic) motive of wanting to be with Eve. You have introduced complications to Adam’s side of the story, while Eve was just sinning.

I am reading his response as trying to suggest the possibility that perhaps he didn’t exactly know what he was doing - which is not true.

In the Army I learned that the maximum effective range of an excuse is 0 meters. The only right answer to God’s question is: yes. All other information is an attempt to mitigate his action. This is my reading, anyway, and it is based on the text.
JHow and SteveVH,

I wanted to post a short note that I have read your later responses, and intend to get back to you but haven’t had time, nor do I now.

There is a verse that bears on the subject of Adam that I assume each of you is familiar with:

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So it seems that Paul is very clear about who “was in the transgression” situation, and it was Eve.

I’ll add more tonight as I get time later on.
 
JHow and SteveVH,

I wanted to post a short note that I have read your later responses, and intend to get back to you but haven’t had time, nor do I now.

There is a verse that bears on the subject of Adam that I assume each of you is familiar with:

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

So it seems that Paul is very clear about who “was in the transgression” situation, and it was Eve.

I’ll add more tonight as I get time later on.
I look forward to your full reply.
 
We should all have a holiday celebrating the choice of Adam and Eve and their decision to sin against God! Hats off everyone! :banghead:
We could have signs and banners:[SIGN]Disobedience Rocks![/SIGN]
 
This wasn’t an accusation, Rebecca. It was a question…and of course there is 'something in it for Him," else He wouldn’t have created all things in the first place. He had a reason for doing so.

…and frankly, I don’t buy the 'because God is Love" bit. I keep thinking…well, if God is Love, and He wanted/needed someone to love and to love Him, why in the name of all that is wonderful did He pick US? There isn’t a one of us who is worthy to be with Him…and He deliberately created us this way?
.
Catholicism doesn’t teach that God needs us to love Him.
 
We could have signs and banners:[SIGN]Disobedience Rocks![/SIGN]
There is certainly some hidden teaching behind all of this mis-reading of the text.

The parts that are difficult (knowledge of good and evil, for example) are glossed over. The basic outline of the story: shrouded in mystery!

Of course Eve was deceived, she was talking to the Devil. Adam was not talking to the Devil, but to his wife, he was not deceived. It makes his sin all that much worse. To my mind Adam comes out worst of all in the story. You can’t read this without understanding that Adam sinned, and should have known better. This business about being conflicted and wanting to be with his wife is extra-textural - it supports some other doctrine that I am clearly missing.
 
Please show me where an angel was ever described as being born.
Show me where angels are a separate species.
When we sin we are collaborating with Satan. The opposite is to seek collaboration with God, to forsake our sinful nature and align ourselves to Him. More to the point, as Christians we should adhere to Christ. I thought you understood this.
Then you call the whole of Man collaborators with Satan and his demons…even those that are the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Bible.
This seems like you are going overboard trying to justify a point.
Just because someone makes a bad choice does not make them collaborators or demons, which is what the poster of #52 was saying Adam was.
 
Jhow…very good point about Adam…Satan came in disguise, though, as the most beautiful of all creatures in nature, implying to Eve, and her nature as a woman, that she would also become more beautiful.
 
Show me where angels are a separate species.
“What is man that you should care for him? You have made him little less than the angels, and crowned him with glory and honor. You have given him rule over the works of your hands, putting all things under his feet” (Ps. 8:5-7)
Then you call the whole of Man collaborators with Satan and his demons…even those that are the Patriarchs and Prophets of the Bible.
This seems like you are going overboard trying to justify a point.
Just because someone makes a bad choice does not make them collaborators or demons, which is what the poster of #52 was saying Adam was.
🤷 Why else do you believe Christ suffered and died, if not to atone for our sins? You think this was for something that we do by accident? Or do you think that sin is something that God wants? Really, what do you think sin is?
 
Looking to the story of creation passed down through time, people have always seen separate and complete beings…no morphing from one type of creature to another…for that becomes even more mythical…

The angels are spirits, human beings are spirit and flesh, both have intelligence and free will. Man and creatures can propagate and multiply; angels/demons were created complete at creation and do not marry or conceive offspring…

This has been the understanding of creation going back to ancient times.
 
These words come from the previous chapter - the story about the creation of man and woman. The next episode is the story of the snake and the fall. You are taking this section that deals with why God made man and woman out of context and applying it to the next story to make your case that Adam’s motive for disobediance was so he would always be with Eve. Just because one story follows the other doesn’t mean they are linked.
JHow,
I would think that if you had been in “Adam’s shoes”, you would have thought the two chapters were “linked” in that the man and the woman were created with purposes and commandments planned as they were brought into being on the earth. Adam was taught about those purposes and commandments as shown in Genesis 2. So of course all that is very much on his mind in what happens in Genesis 3. He is a man of intellect, and Eve is a woman of intellect. Eve shows her devotion to God in terms of her thinking, in Genesis 4:1 when she rejoices in the gift of having a son “from the Lord”.
The full reply is this: “And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
Adam is asked by God a straightforward question (did you eat from the tree) and he provides a less than straightforward answer. This is all we have to go on here in the text.
Yes, that could sound less than straightforward, except that Adam knows God knows everything, so of course he knows that God already knows the answer to the question and even knows Adam’s motives. He would immediately perceive from the question that he was being brought to accountability–“what did you do?” but knowing that the obvious next question would be “why did you do it?” So he answered both accountability questions at the same time. He didn’t dodge the question. He said, “I did eat” and he also told why.
No. I supplied that word, justification, because that is what it is when you try to qualify disobedience to God, which is what Adam is doing: “YOU gave me the woman, SHE gave me the apple… and I ate it.”
When a person is brought to accountability for their choices, words, decisions, actions, then it is expected that they be truthful about their answers including the decision-making process and the actions involved. If every time someone is brought to accountability and they think the person they are accounting to is going to think “you’re really merely justifying your behavior” then I don’t think that works as a very good model for expecting honest accountability. It would seem that Adam would expect God to want him to be honest and be accountable for his choices and actions.

With a negative and biased view of the situation, an outsider reading the words or watching the situation could certainly say “he is merely justifying his bad behavior.” Or, they could read and say, “Oh–here is what was going on in this man’s mind when he did what he did.” (By the way, God did not chide Adam for dishonesty nor for “justifying” the choices he made. God did respond that the choices had consequences that were now going to go into effect.)

(And by the way, your quote left out the very key words that seem to be given such short shrift as though they are totally unimportant, just as your “quote” implied by leaving them out.)

“The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she…”
This is why I feel you are giving Eve the short end of the stick: according to you, Eve is making a conscious choice to sin; but, according to you, Adam makes a conscious choice with the additional (tragic) motive of wanting to be with Eve. You have introduced complications to Adam’s side of the story, while Eve was just sinning.
Eve is making a conscious choice about eating the fruit, and her choice has three motives, one of which is that she really and truly, deep-down in her heart, desires wisdom. (Genesis 3:6)

The verses I noted in my short earlier response said that Paul was familiar with the account of the fall of Adam and Eve, and Paul wrote (1 Timothy 2:13) that “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

Adam told what his motive was. Paul indicates that Adam did make a conscious choice, and Adam was honest in being accountable for his choice and saying why he did what he did.

Again, Eve had three motives. She certainly can not honestly or thoughtfully be described as “just sinning”.
I am reading his response as trying to suggest the possibility that perhaps he didn’t exactly know what he was doing - which is not true.
Adam knew exactly what he was doing, and knew the consequences that were coming.
In the Army I learned that the maximum effective range of an excuse is 0 meters. The only right answer to God’s question is: yes. All other information is an attempt to mitigate his action. This is my reading, anyway, and it is based on the text.
An Army leader certainly expects to be answered in a certain way, specifically and to the point with no more said than exactly what was asked for. “Yes, sir. No, sir.”

But Adam and Eve weren’t in the Army. I’ve already answered about the use of the word “justifying” and I disagree with the use of that word or the use of the word “excuse” or the words “mitigate his action.” When a person is called to accountability, they have a right to explain their motives–in fact, God of course wants us to be honest in our heart and thus explaining our motives (say, for example, when we pray to God) is precisely the thing that will always be a good thing to do. That is helpful for us to do that. It is not “justifying” or “excusing” our behavior. It is evaluating our personal decision-making and answering accountably for our choices.

(Continuation coming)
 
(Continuation)

As we are self-honest, we can be guided in our heart toward making better choices in the future if that is what we need to learn to do–but if we merely say “I sinned” and don’t think about the “why” and acknowledge the “why”, then we are completely likely to do the very same thing another time. (Of course, in this circumstance Adam wasn’t going to be given that chance.)

Accountability brings the “why” into the picture. Adam was being accountable.
 
Parker,
Another thing just occurred to me. As you are well aware, genealogy was extremely important to the people of biblical times. We see it throughout Scripture, even in the New Testament (See Mathew). It had everything to do with their identity. For a figure as important as Michael the Archangel, who you say became human, can you please tell me who his parents were? I will even accept any mention of his ever being born other than the one obscure verse in Revelation which we have discussed and which I believe you are completely misinterpreting.
SteveVH,
Somewhere along the way in this conversation, you may have missed that what I was saying is that Michael the Archangel became the first human man on this earth, Adam. So “his parents” doesn’t apply since he and Eve were the first parents.

The sequence for Adam’s existence is thus:
  1. Michael the Archangel in the pre-mortal world where there was a “war in heaven”. He was a valiant leader.
  2. Adam, the first parent along with Eve. He was given an important stewardship on this earth.
  3. When he died, he went to the spirit world and became once again Michael the Archangel.
When Daniel sees him in vision as recorded in Daniel 12:1 during the end times, he stands up and once again takes on a “warrior prince” role. At that point he may be resurrected or he may still be a spirit (I don’t know since he has and will have a very unique role), but in either case he can still be described as “Michael the Archangel” or “Michael the Great Prince”.
 
Please show me in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other writings (Christian, Jewish, Mormon) where a pre-mortal ‘Angel’ changed his name to become mortal, and changed his name again after his ‘death’.

Michael to Adam to Michael…
 
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