Mormons: What does it mean that Michael holds the keys of Salvation?

[ParkerD]

"No. God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad. (Gen 3:5)

Concluding that they were tempted by the words of the serpent when he said “be like gods” is jumping to an unwarranted conclusion? By what do you think they were tempted? A nice piece of fruit? They were tempted by the very thing that would make them like gods, knowledge of good and evil. More importantly, they were commanded in very specific terms not to do it. They chose to disobey God for their own personal gain.

Your conclusion would evidently be because you don’t believe what Genesis 3:6 says and what they said when they provided an accounting of why they partook of the forbidden fruit. That would evidently mean you think the serpent’s temptation and rationale was appealing solely in how the serpent presented the enticement, meaning they could not think for themselves. Eve shows evidence in her accountability that she thought for herself, desired wisdom, realized that God had said that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a way to begin to gain wisdom, and decided to make that choice. She did say “the serpent beguiled me”, but Genesis 3:6 explains her rationale and does not say what it was that the serpent beguiled her about specifically. However, the serpent had said “Ye shall not surely die”, so if she believed that (not sure myself whether she did, but it was a beguiling statement) then she was being truthful when she said “the serpent beguiled me.” He also beguiled her about being “as gods”–but the verses never say she believed that. Verse 6 only describes three motives for her partaking the fruit.

 

[ParkerD]

I’m not sure where you arrive at the conclusion that they were like children. They were created perfectly and were perfect, in every way, intellectually, physically and spiritually until they made the choice, through their own free will, to disobey God. And yes, they knew goodness because they knew God and walked with Him. How could they live in the presence of God and not know goodness? What they did not know was evil, and this is what they chose.

Steve,
I guess the words “were not ashamed” and the words “the eyes of them both were opened” mean something different for you than for me. For me, those words mean they moved from a condition of being like children with “eyes unopened” into a condition of having their eyes “opened”.

I guess the word “perfect” means something different for you than for me. I consider the word “perfect” to mean “having knowledge enough to act perfectly by choice”, and there is specific evidence that they did not have that. To me, being innocent and being perfect are not the same quality, at all.

They certainly knew goodness and kindness and love. That would have given Eve some confidence in herself–confidence that she could begin making choices on her own, using her own mind and her own thinking processes, her own creativity and initiative, moving from being a totally dependent creature toward being a more independent creature.

You have placed words into God’s “mouth” that aren’t presented in the Bible. He didn’t say “you have chosen evil.” Satan would like you to believe that Eve chose evil, but those words are not in the specifically given experience as described. She chose what is described in verse 6, including the opportunity for wisdom.

Are you trying to say that Catholics celebrate original sin?

I was in other words, saying that the fallen spirits have occasion to be glad when the idea of “original sin” is carried on in any teachings, since there is no such teaching in the Bible. Particularly is that so when such teachings lead to a belief in needing to baptize someone before they can make a personal, knowledgeable covenant with Christ to follow Him.

It was you who said “Hats off to Adam and Eve” in the context of their choosing to disobey God. You’re avoiding the question, Parker. Are you trying to imply that those who believe that Adam and Eve rebelled against God when they disobeyed Him are somehow being led by Satan? How does one disobey someone without rebelling against them?

Eve chose wisdom. God never used the word “rebellion” to describe Adam and Eve’s choice. The use of that word to describe their situation is the wrong word. It is by far the wrong word, and leads to a wrong conclusion. So, the answer to your question here is “yes” since it means the word use has become judgmental in a way not intended by God or by Moses.

I don’t understand your last question here. If you mean every time a child disobeys their parent they have rebelled against their parent, then my goodness I think that is a harsh approach to parenting and an unwarranted and ineffective rush to judgment.

 

[ParkerD]

I must have missed that one so I can’t comment. However, I don’t think the Book of Wisdom is found in your Bible. Are you saying you would accept it as Scripture? Just curious as to its status since the KJV is the preferred translation of LDS.

It was my understanding that Catholics accept the book of Wisdom, although acknowledged not to have been written by Solomon. We don’t use it, but that doesn’t mean we wouldn’t acknowledge that many of its teachings include true concepts. Here are the verses about Adam from Wisdom 10:

What wisdom did for Adam, Noe, Abraham, Lot, Jacob, Joseph, and the people of Israel.

[1] She preserved him, that was first formed by God the father of the world, when he was created alone, [2] And she brought him out of his sin, and gave him power to govern all things.

In fact, freedom lies in the ability to choose what is right and good. Choosing sin makes us slaves.

Yes, those are true statements. Eve nor Adam had that freedom before their fall, since they had no knowledge of good or evil. They had no sense of choosing between those kinds of choices. They had very “limited freedom.”

“Slaves” would mean repeating our sins by never repenting, and being slaves to the master of deception. Christ offers complete Redemption even during this life from those aspects of sin, and does not expect humankind never to make a mistake. Satan would have people believe that if they make a mistake, they should feel terrible, guilty, in his grasp, a “slave” to him, but we ought to know from the Bible that those are deceptive feelings, and that Christ is not the source of those kinds of feelings.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It seems Eve had more faith and trust in the arm of flesh in gaining wisdom than she had in God.