Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

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I don’t see how there could have been any “good Christians” if there were no divine authority. Christians aren’t “good” under their own power. A Church without divine authority could never have accomplished what the Catholic Church has accomplished. Nor could it have survived, intact, for 2k years and going. This theory of Zerinus, shared by some Mormons, is completely illogical.
I have already discussed that with you enough, and I am not going to rehash the same arguments all over again.
Take a look at the Pope. He has no temporal power whatever. Yet, when he speaks, the world listens. . . .
Yea, and the world also heard his gaff in Germany, when he went there and called Mohamed a terrorist (or words to that effect), and then had to go to Turkey and pray in the mosque and apologize for it! JP2 at least had the good sense not to do that.

zerinus
 
The only sort of “apostacy” which has occurred was when Joseph Smith sat down and wrote the BoM. He truly attempted to pervert the Word of God. We must pray to the Lord for these poor souls who have been/are being lead astray by this perversion.
 
No. The church apostatized. The keys were taken away by the same God who gave it.

zerinus
…and this appears in Scripture where???

I know it is not nice to talk ill of the dead…but

Joseph Smith and Muhammed were both kooks, false prophets, and pro-violence.

And thinking of how many people they have led astray with their brand of theology, … that really makes me ill.
 
John is still alive? Huh?!? Maybe I am reading this wrong but someone’s got to explain this one. And furthermore, where is he?
Do you mean he ascended into heaven or is still living on earth somewhere?
 
I need a year, a month and an exact day that the apostasy happened.

There weren’t many good christians left? What about Saint Augustine? Saint Ignatius? Saint Francis of Assisi? Saint Claire of Assisi? Saint Elizabeth of Hungary? Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton ? Saint Bernadette? Saint John Bosco? Saint Dominic?

I can name quite a few saints that were good holy men and women AFTER the apostles died or were martyred (most were martyred. John the apostle was the only one that died naturally probably because it was his assignment to watch over Jesus’ mother after his death on the cross).
 
I have already discussed that with you enough, and I am not going to rehash the same arguments all over again.
No, you never adequately addressed the issue of how there could be “good Christians” (your term) in the world without the divine authority being present in the successors of the Apostles, the bishops and the priests. But, I’m not arguing with you. Rather I am providing a running commentary on your statements, which I feel is important so that the lurkers, some of whom may be thinking about Mormonism, will be more informed.
Yea, and the world also heard his gaff in Germany, when he went there and called Mohamed a terrorist (or words to that effect), and then had to go to Turkey and pray in the mosque and apologize for it! JP2 at least had the good sense not to do that.
That was no gaff. B-XVI knows exactly what he is doing, and I assure you that no public word comes out of his mouth without being carefully weighed for truth and effect. In fact, it was stated by him that his intent is to initiate a dialog that hasn’t previously been undergone. The fruits of this dialog may not be known even in your lifetime, young as you appear to be.

It is interesting, though, that, despite the fact that you get all the details wrong, you still notice the things that the Pope does and says. You know approximately what he said, and you know of trips he’s taken recently. How many non-Mormons, or even Mormons, for that matter, know what Hinckley has said, or trips he’s taken recently?

Only the Pope holds the charismatic power to speak for Christianity. Your little cults and sects are like midgets, jumping up and down, straining to be noticed. The Pope is a meek, gentle, yet giant of a theologian, and when he speaks in his gentle voice, the world quiets down and strains to hear him. Even the Mormons hear him. Interesting.
 
True!

Because the church had apostatized.

God did.

zerinus
But John was the beloved disciple.
While he was on earth (or still is according to LDS) how could the church apostasise?
John would have been preaching the Word of God to all who would listen.
That is what the church was.
John would have been baptising people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
That is what the church was.
That is what the church still is.
Why and how would the most beloved disciple of God apostasise? John was given the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and the power to go out and baptise people.
The Holy Spirit would not have failed him.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit failed John?
Why would God take the ministry away from John when He gave it to him?
The church is the group of believers zerinus.
John was an eye witness to the Truth.
How could the church apostasise while John was still alive? (or is still alive according to LDS)

Please answer zerinus, as I am truly trying to understand how the LDS believe the church apostasised.
Thanks
 
It means that the divine authority was lost. It does not mean that there were no more good Christians left.

zerinus
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: **There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.’**
  • Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811
The bold text was my doing, and I have been under the impression that it was a traditional stance within the Latter Day Saints community. I’ve posted this before and yet to see a response. Which is why I am perplexed on what seems like a contradiction of statements…
 
No, you never adequately addressed the issue of how there could be “good Christians” (your term) in the world without the divine authority being present in the successors of the Apostles, the bishops and the priests. But, I’m not arguing with you. Rather I am providing a running commentary on your statements, which I feel is important so that the lurkers, some of whom may be thinking about Mormonism, will be more informed.
Nonsense, anybody who reads that thread will know that your questions were more than adequately answered.
That was no gaff. B-XVI knows exactly what he is doing, and I assure you that no public word comes out of his mouth without being carefully weighed for truth and effect. In fact, it was stated by him that his intent is to initiate a dialog that hasn’t previously been undergone. The fruits of this dialog may not be known even in your lifetime, young as you appear to be.
Yea, you said it, and I believed it! If it wasn’t a gaff, why did he have to go to Turkey and pray in the mosque and grovel to the Moslem cleric out there and apologize in order to appease the anger of all the Moslems?
It is interesting, though, that, despite the fact that you get all the details wrong, you still notice the things that the Pope does and says. You know approximately what he said, and you know of trips he’s taken recently.
That was because it was such a big gaff that it made international news. If he hadn’t said anything controversial, nobody would have heard where he had gone and what he had said. President Ahmadi Nejad of Iran has been in the news quite a lot lately for calling to wipe Israel off the map! That doesn’t exactly make him a respectable popular saint, right?
How many non-Mormons, or even Mormons, for that matter, know what Hinckley has said, or trips he’s taken recently?
Oh, an awful lot! You had better not underestimate Hinckley! In a Gallup survey carried out in December 2000, he was ranked among the top twenty most admired figures in the US. He is even better known now. A survey today would put him even higher. He has received numerous awards and honors from various respected institutions. He has been to the White House on several occasions under different US Presidents; and “On June 23, 2004 (Hinckley’s 94th birthday), President George W. Bush awarded Hinckley the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor awarded by the United States, in a ceremony at the White House. The press release put forth by the White House stated: “Gordon B. Hinckley …] has inspired millions and has led efforts to improve humanitarian aid, disaster relief, and education funding across the globe.”” (Quoted from Wikipedia article.) He has been invited to speak at some of the most respected institutions in the country. This Speech before the Los Angeles World Affairs Council on May 13, 1999 is a typical example. He has written many inspirational books some of which (such as Standing for Something) have become popular and received wide acclaim not just among LDS. He has appeared in the media, the press, and on radio and television on numerous occasions, and made his presence felt in society, and told the world where he stands on matters of importance to society. He is more widely travelled abroad than any Pope could ever dream of. JP2 was probably the most widely travelled Pope in the Catholic Church. But his travels amount to nothing compared to GBH. He has travelled to practically every nation on earth (some of them more than once), and preached the gospel among them. And what is most remarkable of all, he has achieved all of this through his own merit and accomplishments, nor merely by virtue of the status offered him as the leader of the largest Christian denomination (as the Pope is). And to top it all, he has something that the Pope can never have. He is a mighty prophet of the Lord, in direct communication with Him, possessing the keys of the kingdom of God in all the world.

zerinus

Continued . . . /
 
/. . . Continued
Only the Pope holds the charismatic power to speak for Christianity.
You mean apostate Christianity! Agreed!
Your little cults and sects are like midgets, jumping up and down, straining to be noticed.
Say that again?
The Pope is a meek, gentle, yet giant of a theologian, and when he speaks in his gentle voice, the world quiets down and strains to hear him. Even the Mormons hear him. Interesting.
Yea, and he also makes terrible gaffs that later on he has to go and apologize for! Hinckley is 97 years old, stands tall at the pulpit and speaks with clarity and vision, with the eloquence that comes form the gif of the Holy Ghost, and doesn’t make gaffs! Have you listened to his latest conference talks? You can watch and listen to them on the Church’s website. I recommend you to do so. Here is an extract from a biography of him found on the Internet:

President Hinckley was honored by the National Conference of Community and Justice (formerly the National Conference of Christians and Jews) for his contributions to tolerance and understanding in the world, and received the Distinguished Service Award from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 1999 and 2000, Americans who were surveyed in a Gallup poll named President Hinckley one of the most admired men in the world.

He wrote a best-selling book, Standing for Something, not merely for his own flock but for a general audience. In it he champions the virtues of love, honesty, morality, civility, learning, forgiveness, mercy, thrift and industry, gratitude, optimism and faith. His latest publication, Way to Be!, is a book of virtues for teenagers and their parents. Source.

zerinus
 
You mean apostate Christianity! Agreed!
BUZZZZ! Sorry, wrong answer. Apostate Christianity belongs to the LDS and their rejection of the Truth.
 
Yes, been discussed before, go and read them if you care.

Through this moment in time, zerious, you have responded to every 3.9 posts to date. I am not as intelligent as my bretheren., but the question of where you/LDS take the position of where and when the Apostacy in the church took place,……it comes across to me as a simpleton that I still do not understand. You have been asked about this repeatedly, but you can not explain it to me.

I sense there may be no specific occasion, just someone’s opinion,……no problem stating that. Can you help me understand? As one of God’s children, can you specifically help me?
 
Yes, been discussed before, go and read them if you care.

Through this moment in time, zerious, you have responded to every 3.9 posts to date. I am not as intelligent as my bretheren., but the question of where you/LDS take the position of where and when the Apostacy in the church took place,……it comes across to me as a simpleton that I still do not understand. You have been asked about this repeatedly, but you can not explain it to me.

I sense there may be no specific occasion, just someone’s opinion,……no problem stating that. Can you help me understand? As one of God’s children, can you specifically help me?
Okay, what do you want to know, specifically?

zerinus
 
President Hinckley was honored by the National Conference of Community and Justice (formerly the National Conference of Christians and Jews) for his contributions to tolerance and understanding in the world, and received the Distinguished Service Award from the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 1999 and 2000, Americans who were surveyed in a Gallup poll named President Hinckley one of the most admired men in the world.
A little research as to Hinckley and the Gallup Poll for 1999 and 2000 shows:

1st Place: Bill Clinton and Pope John Paul II 6%

2nd Place: Colin Powell; Geo W Bush and Al Gore 5%

3rd Place: Billy Graham 4%

4th Place: Ronald Reagan and Nelson Mandela 3%

Rounding out the bottom at 1 % each:
Code:
           Jimmy Carter
           Bill Gates
           George H W Bush
           Jesse Jackson
           Gordon B Hinckley
           Tiger Woods
           Dalai Lama
           Michael Jordan
Zerinus’ god of this planet, Gordon B Hinckley, did not even make it to 1% of the vote in his first FOUR years of leading the LDS sect: 1995 through 1998.

Truth in Advertising, Zerinus, Truth in Advertising.

Pax Christi
 
Yea, you said it, and I believed it! If it wasn’t a gaff, why did he have to go to Turkey and pray in the mosque and grovel to the Moslem cleric out there and apologize in order to appease the anger of all the Moslems?
I’m afraid you flunked the current events part of the exam, Z. The trip to Turkey was set long, long before, even before John Paul died. It had nothing to do with any statements made by B-XVI. Also, I am not aware of any “apologies” made by the Pope to “appease” moslem anger. His statements of regret were very carefully phrased so that they were not apologies, but rather statements of regret for the angry reaction. The major purpose of the trip to Turkey was to visit the Orthodox bishop Bartholomew. The interaction with the moslems was a sideshow.
That was because it was such a big gaff that it made international news. If he hadn’t said anything controversial, nobody would have heard where he had gone and what he had said.
One then must wonder why Zerinus pays so little attention to the details in the news that he gets all the facts wrong. Is the air thin up there on the spire, Z?
Oh, an awful lot! You had better not underestimate Hinckley! In a Gallup survey carried out in December 2000, he was ranked among the top twenty most admired figures in the US. He is even better known now.
OK, I’ll bite. Who were the others on the list of “most admired figures in the U.S.”?
He has appeared in the media, the press, and on radio and television on numerous occasions, and made his presence felt in society, and told the world where he stands on matters of importance to society.
Oh yes. I saw him on Larry King. When he was asked about an important Mormon teaching of the past, he mumbled and sputtered, and left many Mormons doubting his knowledge of doctrine, such that he had to make a firmer statement once back home in SLC, where he claimed to have been mis-quoted. I think you know which one to which I refer. Not exactly the Great Prophet’s Greatest Moment.
He is more widely travelled abroad than any Pope could ever dream of. JP2 was probably the most widely travelled Pope in the Catholic Church. But his travels amount to nothing compared to GBH.
I hadn’t heard of this. Could you link me to a diagram or description of his travels?
 
You mean apostate Christianity! Agreed!
Thank you for agreeing that only the Pope can speak for world Christianity. The charge of apostasy is one that is demonstrably without evidence, and defies all common sense, so we can leave that aside.
Say that again?
I’ve already addressed that issue, and have answered that question. No need to repeat myself.
Hinckley is 97 years old, stands tall at the pulpit and speaks with clarity and vision, with the eloquence that comes form the gif of the Holy Ghost, and doesn’t make gaffs! Have you listened to his latest conference talks? You can watch and listen to them on the Church’s website. I recommend you to do so. Here is an extract from a biography of him found on the Internet:
I actually very much like Rev. Hinckley, and admire him. I’ve watched him many, many times on TV, and have read some of his material, such as Stand A Little Taller which I have on my shelf. My former Mormon sweetheard bought it for me a couple of years ago. I like it. I like GBH. Too bad he’s such a Mormon.

I certainly am not impugning the status or integrity of Gordon B. Hinckley. Well, there was that thing back in the early 1980’s involving one Mark Hofman, sometimes referred to as the Mormon Murders, which had Gordon B. Hinckley as in involved partner. Involved right up to his bushy eyebrows. Something about forged Mormon documents that Hinckley paid big bucks for? You ever hear about that?
 
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