Mormons, when did the Apostacy occur?

[JonathanKinsman]

I certainly am not impugning the status or integrity of Gordon B. Hinckley. Well, there was that thing back in the early 1980’s involving one Mark Hofman, sometimes referred to as the Mormon Murders, which had Gordon B. Hinckley as in involved partner. Involved right up to his bushy eyebrows. Something about forged Mormon documents that Hinckley paid big bucks for? You ever hear about that?

Allweather, the LA Times did a series of articles on it in the 1980s. Their writer wrote a book which sold very well.

I got a first edition of the BoM, however, no one wants to buy it from me: some enterprising guy put it on the internet for free! Dang! I wanted to retire on Mormon money!

Got to keep the faithful from reading their ‘new and improved’ versions with the ‘original god directed translation.’

I like showing Mormon Missionaries my ‘treasure’ and those chapters ripped off from the KJV Isaiah!

Pax Christi

 

[zerinus]

The major purpose of the trip to Turkey was to visit the Orthodox bishop Bartholomew. The interaction with the moslems was a sideshow.

That was what it was made to look like by the Catholic Church to save face among the Christians; but its real purpose was to appease the anger of the Moslems and repare the damage done to Moslem/Catholic relations.

OK, I’ll bite. Who were the others on the list of “most admired figures in the U.S.”?

Okay, the Pope (JP2) was there too, ahead of Hinckley; but don’t forget that the Catholics constitute 24% of the population of the US, while Mormons make up 2%. Who do you think most Catholics would vote for, the Pope or GBH? And also don’t forget that the LDS Church has been the most viciously attacked and maligned Church by the corrupt and apostate Christendom ever since it was created until now. GBH has risen to that position entirely on his own merits, against such enormous opposition; not by riding on the back of a popular Christian church. If the Pope had to climb up the ladder entirely on his own merits as GBH has done, facing such opposition as he has, he wouldn’t make it to the first rung. And that vote was taken in 2,000, before GBH received the highest national honor from the President of the US in 2004. A survey today would rank him a lot higher.

Oh yes. I saw him on Larry King. When he was asked about an important Mormon teaching of the past, he mumbled and sputtered, and left many Mormons doubting his knowledge of doctrine, such that he had to make a firmer statement once back home in SLC, where he claimed to have been mis-quoted. I think you know which one to which I refer. Not exactly the Great Prophet’s Greatest Moment.

What Hinckley said on that occasion was perfectly correct and appropriate.

I hadn’t heard of this. Could you link me to a diagram or description of his travels?

All the General Authorities of the Church travel extensively throughout the world as part of their world wide ministry in the Church. They travel practically every week. I don’t know offhand of a source of information that lists them all in one place. If you have the back issues of the Ensign (or of Church News) they are usually mentioned in the news section at the back of the Ensign. You can read the back issues of the Ensign on the Church’s website. In an article by Elder Packer that was published in the Ensign shortly after Hinckley was called to the Presidency of the Church, he mentioned as one of his tributes to him that it was now easier to name the countries that he has not been to that the ones he has visited! Then he mentioned the names of two or three countries that he had not yet visited. I searched on the church’s website for some information on the subject, and came across this, which gives you some ideas:

President Hinckley spoke briefly about the traveling he has done since 1995. He has traveled to more than 70 nations and logged more than one million miles (1.6 million km).

“It becomes very tiring, very wearisome, but it’s very faith promoting,” he said. “When you get out among the people and see their strength and their capacity, their devotion and their love, it’s a wonderful thing, really. You just can’t believe it until you experience it, and it’s tremendous.” Source.

This refers to his travels during the ten years that he had been the President of the Church up to that time (2005). It does not include all the travelling that he had done previously as an Apostle and a General Authority before that time.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Well, there was that thing back in the early 1980’s involving one Mark Hofman, sometimes referred to as the Mormon Murders, which had Gordon B. Hinckley as in involved partner. Involved right up to his bushy eyebrows. Something about forged Mormon documents that Hinckley paid big bucks for? You ever hear about that?

That is falsehood that you and enemies of the Church have invented. No such thing happened.

zerinus

 

[JonathanKinsman]

That was what it was made to look like by the Catholic Church to save face among the Christians; but its real purpose was to appease the anger of the Moslems and repare the damage done to Moslem/Catholic relations.

And Zerinus has this on the “testimony of the Holy Spirit.”

What Hinckley said on that occasion was perfectly correct and appropriate.

 

[dbacks5439]

???

    Am I the only one who's noticed that the original question still hasn't been answered?

???

 

[Pjs2ejs]

Zerinus writes: And also don’t forget that the LDS Church has been the most viciously attacked and maligned Church by the corrupt and apostate Christendom ever since it was created until now.

I respond: I love your phrasing of “created”. It certainly was created. In the 1800’s. And not by Jesus Christ.

Do you want to know when my religion was created? About 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus promised to be with His church until the end of time. He even sent the Holy Spirit one evening when Pope Peter “the rock” and the disciples were gathered to guide them. They knew and always taught that Jesus would never abandon His church.

And as far as the LDS Church being the most viciously attacked? If disagreement and exposure of lies and corruption is being "viciously attacked’, then I guess so. I suppose we should just sit back and allow any kook who claims to be a prophet, regardless of reliability, to convince us that their new found religion is the True Church.

 

[zerinus]

I actually very much like Rev. Hinckley, and admire him. . . .

And don’t Rev him up please; he ain’t Rev! We don’t use such apostate titles for our piresthood officers.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

???

    Am I the only one who's noticed that the original question still hasn't been answered?

???

It has been answered.

zerinus

 

[VWcrazy]

We don’t use such apostate titles for our piresthood officers.

LDS use their own apostates titles.

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus writes: And also don’t forget that the LDS Church has been the most viciously attacked and maligned Church by the corrupt and apostate Christendom ever since it was created until now.

I respond: I love your phrasing of “created”. It certainly was created. In the 1800’s. And not by Jesus Christ.

Do you want to know when my religion was created? About 33 A.D. by Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus promised to be with His church until the end of time. He even sent the Holy Spirit one evening when Pope Peter “the rock” and the disciples were gathered to guide them. They knew and always taught that Jesus would never abandon His church.

And as far as the LDS Church being the most viciously attacked? If disagreement and exposure of lies and corruption is being "viciously attacked’, then I guess so. I suppose we should just sit back and allow any kook who claims to be a prophet, regardless of reliability, to convince us that their new found religion is the True Church.

Your religion was created by Jesus Christ “about 33 AD,” and then it apostatized. The LDS Church was created by Jesus Christ in 1830 AD to restore what was lost; and all your lies about it will not make the truth of God void.

zerinus

 

[Cath01]

I am going to keep this short.

Alot of people here got sucked into an arguement.

Here is the thing: This fellow who started Mormonism had been visited by spirits.
Question: How did HE know that the spirits or powers that visited him were Spirits telling truth?

Every day, people always say the “see the light”. Well guess what, If I am a crooked person, I am going to lie to you to accomplish my task. That is a deceptive technique, originating from my own consciousness AND choice (and thus my soul).

What on earth makes people so sure that they are not being decieved by Spirits as well?

Hey, If I am a deceptive person in flesh, you better believe that I will try to win you over to promote MY agenda. A spirit is no different. People get duped all the time, and it is sad. The results must be looked at.

Is it in line with pure unconditional Love of Christ? Is it in line with serving others And the Lord, or is it about serving yourself?

 

[Pjs2ejs]

Hey Z, Jesus never abandoned His church. He promised it would remain until the end of time. He has been guiding it for almost 2000 years.

You obviously are producing no good fruit here on the CA Forums.

 

[dbacks5439]

I am going to keep this short.

Alot of people here got sucked into an arguement.

Here is the thing: This fellow who started Mormonism had been visited by spirits.
Question: How did HE know that the spirits or powers that visited him were Spirits telling truth?

Every day, people always say the “see the light”. Well guess what, If I am a crooked person, I am going to lie to you to accomplish my task. That is a deceptive technique, originating from my own consciousness AND choice (and thus my soul).

What on earth makes people so sure that they are not being decieved by Spirits as well?

Hey, If I am a deceptive person in flesh, you better believe that I will try to win you over to promote MY agenda. A spirit is no different. People get duped all the time, and it is sad. The results must be looked at.

Is it in line with pure unconditional Love of Christ? Is it in line with serving others And the Lord, or is it about serving yourself?

Hey Zerinus. Guess what man! Mormons are mentioned in the New Testament! You guys are mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1-3.
When I read this passage, I think of the denial of the Trinity, almost like denying the Master who ransomed you…

 

[VWcrazy]

Your religion was created by Jesus Christ “about 33 AD,” and then it apostatized. The LDS Church was created by Jesus Christ in 1830 AD to restore what was lost; and all your lies about it will not make the truth of God void.

The LDS Church was never created by Jesus Christ. The LDS Church was invited by a man with a flair for really bad science fiction. The LDS is nothing but a big, fat lie and insult to Jesus Christ.

 

[cubalibre]

Every Mormon I know claims their church is so maligned. And yet they are the ones claiming the Catholic church is apostate and a harlot. They make outrageous historical claims that have no basis in historical fact. Maybe the resident Mormons on this thread should realize that Catholics can get angry knowing that the basis of the Mormon faith is anti-Catholicism. Behind all the family values is a hatred and an arrogance against the Catholic faith. One can see this disrespect seething out of Zerinus in his mischaracterization of the Pope’s talk. You should read the talk Zerinus. It was a brilliant discussion on faith and reason. If you think this Pope is apologizing to the Muslims you got him wrong. He is engaging them to win souls as no other Christian leader can. If you are going to malign the Catholic Church as apostate you better be able to back it up with historical fact. None of your posts on this thread or others cited do this because there is no proof. The reality is that the faith in the Gospels, in the Didache, in the Church fathers and in the 21st century Catholic church are one and the same. No apostasy, just a church founded by Christ and his apostles who had the Holy Spirit breathed in them by Christ continuing 2000 years later .
Saludos, CubaLibre

 

[Cath01]

All part of the continuous division. Every time we divide, we get weaker.
One by one, spirits stray us, under a false light.
When spirits stray leaders though, then they are making much greater impact.

If the Catholic church was a lie, and based on lies, then there is no way that it could still exist after all these years. Lies get found out.

Corruption has been found out and has been dealt with many times over again. A corrupt person does not speak for the church. We are subject to corruption (by being human).

I can pick up a religeion, and make it out of “a few” truths, and ignore the rest. Sure it is based on sometruth. But it omits more truth. By omitting truth, it is in essence false.

Cathos - meaning “whole”. Not just some chunk of convenient truths. Everyone who is Catholic knows that their faith involves inconvenient truths, such as “if everyone became totally self- centered (loving only yourself), then this world is history”. If that doesn’t go against the grain of the mainstream today, then I don’t know what does.

All I am saying is, part of a truth alone, is not truth.

 

[Allweather]

That was what it was made to look like by the Catholic Church to save face among the Christians; but its real purpose was to appease the anger of the Moslems and repare the damage done to Moslem/Catholic relations.

Again, that trip was in the works before B-XVI became Pope. The meeting with the moslems was a continuance of interactions begun under John Paul II, and were peripheral to the main purpose of the trip. Still, it would be disengenuous to suggest that there weren’t overtones of earlier tensions, brought about by moslem anger. “Save face”? “Appease anger”? These are characterizations one might expect from either an anti-Christian, or a moslem, or maybe a Mormon.

Okay, the Pope (JP2) was there too, ahead of Hinckley; but don’t forget that the Catholics constitute 24% of the population of the US, while Mormons make up 2%. Who do you think most Catholics would vote for, the Pope or GBH?

I don’t know. Given the backslidden nature of most American Catholics, that is an open question, and one which I wouldn’t wish to bet my life on. I know how I’d vote, but I wasn’t asked. I never HEARD of this survey until you mentioned it here in support of the popularity of Dr. Hinckley, so I naturally assumed that he was right at the top of the list. It never occurred to me that the Pope was way up at the top of the list. Given the claim that you made that Rev. Hinckley has traveled considerably more around the world than the Pope, one might expect another result. Yet, outside of SLC, few people ever heard of him, but pretty much everyone knows who the Pope is.

And also don’t forget that the LDS Church has been the most viciously attacked and maligned Church by the corrupt and apostate Christendom ever since it was created until now.

I don’t know about “the most” because you’ve also got to share the honors with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Moonies, the Millerites, and whatnot. What brought about the particular vicousness of so-called persecutions of Mormons had mostly to do with polygamy and Mormon recuiting of Christian women to fill their harems. There weren’t enough Mormon women to provide 16 wives for every Mormon Great Man of God, so they had to go lookin’.

What Hinckley said on that occasion was perfectly correct and appropriate.

I don’t know about correct. He sounded like a man with something to hide. His mumbling response may have fit the hardness of the question in terms of public relations, but it made him look like one of two things: an idiot, or someone thinking about taking the 5th. We KNOW the man is not an idiot, so the second possibility is the most likely. But look at the interviewer, Larry King, whose wife is a Mormon. One wouldn’t expect truly hard questions from him, and for sure he is not known to be a penetrating interviewer. Even so, His Eminence was reduced to dissembling mish-mash.

All the General Authorities of the Church travel extensively throughout the world as part of their world wide ministry in the Church. They travel practically every week.

I’m not questioning that Mormon leaders spend a lot of time on junkets at the expense of tithing Mormons.

I don’t know offhand of a source of information that lists them all in one place. If you have the back issues of the Ensign (or of Church News) they are usually mentioned in the news section at the back of the Ensign. zerinus

Oh. OK. You had stated that Mr. Hinckley has traveled many times more than the Pope, so I thought you had some hard numbers to back up the claim. You don’t, so we can leave that one alone. FWIW I am not contending about miles traveled. I don’t think that makes a bit of difference. If the Mormon Prophet has, in fact, done more traveling than the Pope, one would expect him to be better known. That’s all. Unless he’s spending most of his time visiting venues like Polynesian Cultural Center, which I suspect he is.

 

[Allweather]

That is falsehood that you and enemies of the Church have invented. No such thing happened.

zerinus

Well, I’ve got some source identifications here that you might find interesting. I’d be happy to email it on over to you for specific refutation.

And BTW it surely wasn’t I who “invented” this series of events which casts great doubt upon the ability of the Prophet to know what’s up.

 

[Allweather]

And don’t Rev him up please; he ain’t Rev! We don’t use such apostate titles for our piresthood officers.

zerinus

Sorry, I was just pulling your leg a little. No disrespect meant. Again, I really do respect prophet Hinckley. Especially with all that world traveling the poor guy does on the backs of the Mormon tithers. That is very noble of him to do that. A very large public service. I’m sure he hob-nobs with all the world leaders, working for peace and brotherhood, rather than just going from door-to-door looking for weak-kneed Catholics.

 

[MrS]

, rather than just going from door-to-door looking for weak-kneed Catholics.

Allweather… you crack me up…

But what you say is quite true… the Mormons and the JWs only go a-knocking to look for un-cathecized Catholics.

I am still waiting for Donnie & Marie to stop by.

.