This is not confirmation, rather it is supposition. You are reading into it more than what Jesus is saying or what the disciples were asking. First of all, they did not believe in preexistence. Otherwise they would have talked this over with him. yet nowhere in the gospels does any disciple bring up the possibility of knowing Jesus in a “pre-life” existence.There are other scriptures that confirm the pre-existence of spirits. Here is another:
John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
How could he have sinned to be born blind, unless he lived before he was born? Jesus didn’t respond to that question by saying, “Don’t be stupid; how could somebody sin before he is born?” Instead He replied, “Neither . . .,” which suggests that he could have sinned; but that in this instance that was not the cause of his being born blind. Hence men existed before they were born, and were even in a situation to be able to sin. They had freewill, and options to choose good and evil were presented to them, and they were able to make that choice. Satan and his crew chose the evil course, rebelled against God, and were cast out, whence came the “devil and his angels”. Those who remained faithful were given the opportunity to be born into mortality and progress towards eternal life, and to greater glories in the kingdom of God. Makes sense, right?
zerinus
There are other scriptures that confirm the pre-existence of spirits. Here is another:
John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.How could he have sinned to be born blind, unless he lived before he was born? Jesus didn’t respond to that question by saying, “Don’t be stupid; how could somebody sin before he is born?” Instead He replied, “Neither . . .,” which suggests that he could
have sinned; but that in this instance that was not the cause of his being born blind.
It is not uncommon for people to believe, even today, that physical hardship is brought on by sin. That of the person experiencing the hardship or of their parents. Certainly mormons hold this view.
However, Jesus corrects this belief and said NEITHER was true, but the man was as God made him for God’s purpose. Jesus in fact turns the apostle’s question on its head and clearly tells them the blind man is a manifestation of God’s work. This is against every belief of the time… physical deformity is “unclean” or “evil” in some way.
Neither means, none of the above, Jesus does not imply there was a choice (C) that the apostles just didn’t think of. He gives a clear answer to their question.
And of course Jesus did not call them names, that is you zerinus, and though you think that someday you can be a god, it doesn’t mean you are one now.
Hence men existed before they were born, and were even in a situation to be able to sin. They had freewill, and options to choose good and evil were presented to them, and they were able to make that choice. Satan and his crew chose the evil course, rebelled against God, and were cast out, whence came the “devil and his angels”. Those who remained faithful were given the opportunity to be born into mortality and progress towards eternal life, and to greater glories in the kingdom of God. Makes sense, right?
This has nothing to do with this scripture, it is only you preaching mormonism and hoping someone will take your bait. Stop proselytizing.
I have no idea. I doubt if anyone does, including the Catholic Church.Zerinus, at what stage in human development does a human body recieve a soul?
catholics believe its at the moment of conception. they base this on the story of mary’s concepcion of jesus.I have no idea. I doubt if anyone does, including the Catholic Church.
zerinus
How does “the story of Mary’s conception of Jesus” prove that “the human body receives the soul” at conception?catholics believe its at the moment of conception. they base this on the story of mary’s concepcion of jesus.
No; as far as I know that information has not been revealed.what about to mormons, dont you have a religious basis for identifying when?
At least the Catholic position leaves no room for err or the murder of the innocent. However, err seems to be at the heart of most mormon doctrines, so this shouldn’t surprise anyone.I have no idea. I doubt if anyone does, including the Catholic Church.
zerinus
thats what I heard them saying.How does “the story of Mary’s conception of Jesus” prove that the spirit enters the body at conception?
ok.No; as far as I kn know that information has not been revealed.
zerinus
I would say the Catholic position is wrong about so many things that it is very likely to be wrong about this one as well.At least the Catholic position leaves no room for err or the murder of the innocent. However, err seems to be at the heart of most mormon doctrines, so this shouldn’t surprise anyone.
Well, they do have a reputation for saying a lot of things that don’t make any sense, I agree.thats what I heard them saying.
So Amgid, what exactly makes a zygote any less of a human life than you?I would say the Catholic position is wrong about so many things that it is very likely to be wrong about this one as well.
zerinus
prenatal reincarnation…how do they know that a reincarnated soul does not remember injuries from a past life?The lds believe that the spirit and body truely become one and sealed together at birth. There are so many stories told in lds circles of mothers who have had multiple miscarriages to feel that the son or daughter that they were not able to carry to term came to them at a later date. Under this belief system the spirit is redirected to another time or place in which it will be sealed to a physical body. Abortion is still not used casually because mormons believe that providing bodies for gods spirit children is important and also believe that there is a great many waiting for their turn for life. If you do not believe that the spirit and body become unified until birth abortion is not murder of a living soul. This is a different belief system than what the catholics believe. So what where the lds stand on abortion is modified by this belief system.
So how come you knew this by Zerinus did not?The lds believe that the spirit and body truely become one and sealed together at birth. There are so many stories told in lds circles of mothers who have had multiple miscarriages to feel that the son or daughter that they were not able to carry to term came to them at a later date. Under this belief system the spirit is redirected to another time or place in which it will be sealed to a physical body. .
From post #46 No; as far as I know that information has not been revealed.
zerinus
Zerinus, once again you extrapolate from scripture what is not there. We know the Jews believed that the effects of the sins of parents could be passed on to future generations. We do not have any indication, however, that the Jews believed in a pre-existence for men where they could be sinners and then have the effects of that sin manifested upon them at their birth into this world. If you want to make an argument that the Jews believed in pre-existence, you are going to have to do a lot better than this.There are other scriptures that confirm the pre-existence of spirits. Here is another:
John 9:
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.How could he have sinned to be born blind, unless he lived before he was born? Jesus didn’t respond to that question by saying, “Don’t be stupid; how could somebody sin before he is born?” Instead He replied, “Neither . . .,” which suggests that he could have sinned; but that in this instance that was not the cause of his being born blind. Hence men existed before they were born, and were even in a situation to be able to sin. They had freewill, and options to choose good and evil were presented to them, and they were able to make that choice. Satan and his crew chose the evil course, rebelled against God, and were cast out, whence came the “devil and his angels”. Those who remained faithful were given the opportunity to be born into mortality and progress towards eternal life, and to greater glories in the kingdom of God. Makes sense, right?
zerinus
And this is why I posted what I did on previous posts. I think that you may have hit the nail on the head. But it does seem to be conjecture. I like the lds view since it does make sense. God’s plan for his spirit children will not be stopped because of abortions. However, abortions should be avoided since it is disrupting god’s plan for that family, woman and potential child.LOL I went to relief society and he’s a guy. It is not revelation but popular lds belief that is talked about alot in women circles. I have even heard of stories of one woman who miscaried for the millionth time and the next month her sister got pregnant. The family felt so strongly that this was the others sisters child trying to come into the world and the pregnant sister already having a large family they decided to let the childless sister raise the child. This is not reincarnation. This is more of a spirit visiting the forming body at different times and intervals before birth with greater frequency until at birth the spirit is sealed to the body. Just to be clear I am no longer a member of the lds church as I converted to Roman Catholic a year ago. Obviously the spirit would not choose to stay in a body that is being destroyed if you believe in the lds belief system I presented so no trauma would be experienced other than perhaps a loss that the family that was chosen for them at that time chose not to have a baby at that time.
And why do you ignore the context, and why do you twist the words completely out of context? Who said anything about “the Jews believing in the pre-existence”? The context suggests that the disciples of Jesus knew abut the pre-existence, presumably because Jesus must have told them. The question asked and answer given can only make sense if they believed in the pre-existence, and if Jesus agreed with them. There is no other way in which that question and that answer could be understood.Zerinus, once again you extrapolate from scripture what is not there. We know the Jews believed that the effects of the sins of parents could be passed on to future generations. We do not have any indication, however, that the Jews believed in a pre-existence for men where they could be sinners and then have the effects of that sin manifested upon them at their birth into this world. If you want to make an argument that the Jews believed in pre-existence, you are going to have to do a lot better than this.
When it comes to knowing the ways of god, we are all fallible: catholic, mormon, protestant etc. No one is infallible in the ways of god.It’s more than a feeling, . They’re on their own with this interpretation and, as they freely admit, not infallible.
:ehh: There is no logic in this, whatsoever. I understand the pain and loss of miscarriage, but to believe a soul is in and out of a body, hopping around from one body to the next? Ummmm, no.LOL I went to relief society and he’s a guy. It is not revelation but popular lds belief that is talked about alot in women circles. I have even heard of stories of one woman who miscaried for the millionth time and the next month her sister got pregnant. The family felt so strongly that this was the others sisters child trying to come into the world and the pregnant sister already having a large family they decided to let the childless sister raise the child. This is not reincarnation. This is more of a spirit visiting the forming body at different times and intervals before birth with greater frequency until at birth the spirit is sealed to the body. Just to be clear I am no longer a member of the lds church as I converted to Roman Catholic a year ago. Obviously the spirit would not choose to stay in a body that is being destroyed if you believe in the lds belief system I presented so no trauma would be experienced other than perhaps a loss that the family that was chosen for them at that time chose not to have a baby at that time. This is what I believed less than a year ago. I now believe that conception is where life begins but I thought a little former lds woman perspective would help people understand how the logic works under this different belief system.