Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

[ParkerD]

Thank you ParkerD, I am having a wonderful day. I hope you are as well.

Yes, Christ is the Savior of the whole world!! And, yes, those of the House of Israel were
scattered by God’s design because they refused to follow Him. Of course, everything is not written in history books.
My issue is that NOTHING my friend is claiming is written anywhere in this entire collection of books know as the Holy Bible. But then there’s this other book, the book of Mormon, that contains all of this information that nobody seems to have but, the Mormons. It is not my intention to insult you, however, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that suddenly, a man has a vision and decides that he needs to become the head of a new church. The last time that happened that I am aware of was when God our Father, sent his son Christ. It wasn’t a vision that Christ had, He was sent by God. The Word made Flesh via the Holy Spirit and through the Virgin Mary. What would give an ordinary man the idea that he is now somehow on the same level as Christ?
I’m also stumped by the idea that things about the Momon ideas are “hidden” in the Holy Bible. While my friend says that, she also refuses to read actual passages and accept things that are not hidden in the Holy Bible. On the other hand, she quotes Matt 23 and reads that most literally. Why is it that she can only quote that one passage and believes that the rest of her beliefs are “hidden” in the Bible and that all other religions are wrong for reading all the things that are written around that “hidden” text.
Enlighten me ParkerD. I really want to understand.

Javise01,
Thanks for your response, and question. You’ve asked good ones.
By saying your friend “refuses to read actual passages” I assume they may not be wanting to get into an uncomfortable “argument” over the meaning of certain Bible verses that are commonly used. I would be happy to explain any that you want to ask about, but of course it will be from my perspective and understanding and the “operation of the Holy Ghost” in my life.

Mormons aren’t taught a set of standard responses to people asking about their faith, other than what is called the “thirteen Articles of Faith”, so I have no idea why your friend quotes Matthew 23. I am comfortable with any passage in the Bible. There are hidden meanings in many cases, and I had a recent discussion using the Catholic Bible where in Daniel 12:10 it says that only the righteous will understand the vision and prophecy. In point of speaking about Daniel, there is a very clear passage in Daniel 2:44 that shows that God shall “set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:…and it shall stand forever,” but this takes place after other kingdoms have “ruled over all the earth.” (v. 39)

The Bible shows that God interacts with His children through both prophets and through the communication by the Holy Ghost. Christ never said this was going to stop after He ascended. The New Testament continues to speak about prophets and apostles with the expectation that there will continue to be such, true ones (not only false ones). Daniel 7:23 says that there will be a powerful ruler who will have success such that the kingdom “shall devour the whole earth.” Looking back at verse 22, one reads that “the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.” Verse 25 implies that the power against the righteous kingdom will prevail for a very long time first. (“a time and times and the dividing of time”) This is not mysterious. It is quite clear text with quite clear meaning. Joseph Smith was not on the same level as Christ, unless you’re saying that Moses was on the same level as Christ. Joseph Smith was like a modern Moses–an instrument to restore truth and knowledge from God, in clear and understandable ways that testify of Christ and His continuing and abiding love for all of God’s children.

'Glad you are having a great day!

 

[dianaiad]

The Book of Mormon is a work of fiction compiled most likely over the 6-7 years between Jsmiths alleged “first vision” account (he changed his version of this ‘first vision’ several times BTW)

I would encourage you to go to www.UTLM.org to get the Truth about Mormonism you sadly will not find in the LDS posters here.
God Bless!

**[heavy irony alert]**Of course. While you are at it, go to CARM to get the Truth about Catholicism you sadly will not find in the Catholic posters here.

the two sites are equally credible.**[/heavy irony alert] **

 

[dianaiad]

In the book of mormon it says that even if you are not baptized you do not indefinately go to hell… So… the fact that they say that our baptisms’ are not real baptism’s shouldn’t matter even if you believe them.

lol - Just to cover that up.

Actually, we don’t believe that the unbaptized go to hell at all–at least, not because they are unbaptized.

but thank you for your attempt to cover that up.

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you ParkerD, I am having a wonderful day. I hope you are as well.

Yes, Christ is the Savior of the whole world!! And, yes, those of the House of Israel were
scattered by God’s design because they refused to follow Him. Of course, everything is not written in history books.
My issue is that NOTHING my friend is claiming is written anywhere in this entire collection of books know as the Holy Bible. But then there’s this other book, the book of Mormon, that contains all of this information that nobody seems to have but, the Mormons. It is not my intention to insult you, however, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that suddenly, a man has a vision and decides that he needs to become the head of a new church. The last time that happened that I am aware of was when God our Father, sent his son Christ. It wasn’t a vision that Christ had, He was sent by God.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior. He didn’t receive revelations. He GIVES them. He never wrote a word to us. There is no “Book of Jesus” written by Him. The men who wrote about Him were apostles and prophets–all of whom were told what to write and to whom to write, by Christ. That is what made them prophets, and why what they wrote is scripture. Paul is the most classic example; he received direct revelation from God on that road to Damascus, exactly the sort of revelation the OT prophets used to have, and the sort of revelation Christ’s apostles had after His resurrection, when He appeared to them, and walked with them, and allowed them to touch Him.

…and THEY wrote the bible. Jesus did not. That’s how revelation works.
javise01;5450291:

The Word made Flesh via the Holy Spirit and through the Virgin Mary. What would give an ordinary man the idea that he is now somehow on the same level as Christ?

Do you put Paul on the same level as Christ?

I’m also stumped by the idea that things about the Momon ideas are “hidden” in the Holy Bible. While my friend says that, she also refuses to read actual passages and accept things that are not hidden in the Holy Bible. On the other hand, she quotes Matt 23 and reads that most literally. Why is it that she can only quote that one passage and believes that the rest of her beliefs are “hidden” in the Bible and that all other religions are wrong for reading all the things that are written around that “hidden” text.
Enlighten me ParkerD. I really want to understand.

You will have to ask your friend why she does things. I am not her, and Parker is not her. We believe that our doctrine is not contradicted by the bible anywhere. Our beliefs may be best supported by scripture we find in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants or the Pearl of Great Price, but we can find biblical support for all. It may not be primary support, but support it is.

 

[sweetnay]

**[heavy irony alert]**Of course. While you are at it, go to CARM to get the Truth about Catholicism you sadly will not find in the Catholic posters here.

the two sites are equally credible.**[/heavy irony alert] **

Actually that’s not true at all, however I’m not at all surprised to find you discouraging it –If you stop assuming you have the Truth, you’ll find it. Again, you and ParkerD are soooooooooooooooooooo heavily invested in Mormonism–I doubt you’d even want the Truth at this point. You’ve GOT to make it work:shrug:

 

[sweetnay]

**[heavy irony alert]**Of course. While you are at it, go to CARM to get the Truth about Catholicism you sadly will not find in the Catholic posters here.

the two sites are equally credible.**[/heavy irony alert] **

I have to ask, exactly what part of the information on UTLM you don’t agree with?

 

[Zundrah]

Will some one please answer the OP!

 

[zerinus]

Will some one please answer the OP!

This subject has been discussed many times on this board before. The following links refer to just the threads that have been started on the subject. The number of individual posts are far more numerous:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=334823
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=270609
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=46520
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2667

 

[cthulhubryan]

We might, if Christ had talked about “bearing our guillotines or nooses”.

Christ makes his own symbol of his cross. We did not invent that.

Luke 9:23:

[23] Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

True, I was just giving the answer I had been given to the same question.

How did this topic get so off topic?

 

[cthulhubryan]

You must have lived in a Provo I don’t recognize, if you never saw a cross anywhere.

Diana, you’re not a “Provo Mormon” are you?

Even the Prophet himself shakes his head at the antics of “Provo Mormons”

Plus, they have that incredibly lame school there. I mean seriously, can BYU do ANYTHING right? They lose at football, they lose at basketball and they will never be the top school in the state.

Bryan
University of Utah Alumni

 

[cthulhubryan]

I have to ask, exactly what part of the information on UTLM you don’t agree with?

Take historical information, add some decent writings about a variety of experiences and then add tons and tons of biased bigotry and you have the UTLM.

You can’t get a true feel for it unless you have been there in person. I’ve met Sandra who is quite nice when discussing other things. I believe I read that Gerald (Jerald?) has passed.

While UTLM has done some good things regarding the history of the LDS church that the modern church sometimes glosses over (like revisions to McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine) but you have to remember that they do have personal axes to grind.

FWIW: I always felt that the biggest strike against the LDS church in terms of those allied against it is that it’s entire history was written in English and therefore not open to some of the dodges of other religions that can claim “translation” issues.

I would be horrified if anyone seriously wanted to start harming Mormons. Much of my wife’s family is LDS. If you get 10 missionaries who went to Louisville, KY at least 8 of them will know “Sister Doris” who is my sister-in-law.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

yeah, and I might add that we use rosaries, unlike mormons. So we have to have a cross in order to have a rosary right? :yup:
I take my rosary everywhere I go and use it more than once daily! I love my cross and the crusifixes on my walls. I pray on them each and every morning and night for my self and my family and to keep my house safe.

Since when do Methodists use rosaries?

 

[dianaiad]

Actually that’s not true at all, however I’m not at all surprised to find you discouraging it –If you stop assuming you have the Truth, you’ll find it. Again, you and ParkerD are soooooooooooooooooooo heavily invested in Mormonism–I doubt you’d even want the Truth at this point. You’ve GOT to make it work:shrug:

Of course we are ‘invested in’ Mormonism. We have faith in Christ and the doctrines we believe are true–and we believe that we find them best in Mormonism. It is no more a desperation ploy than your own faith is to you.

I’m certain that you would take instant, and quite understandable, offense if I were to tell you that the only reason you stay with your own faith is because you are so heavily invested in it that you ‘have’ to make it work.

…and those websites are very much alike. The only difference that I can see is that you like the anti-Mormon one, because it tells you what you want to hear about us; it scratches your itching ears and validates your bigotry and intolerance.

 

[dianaiad]

I have to ask, exactly what part of the information on UTLM you don’t agree with?

The fact that it is a site purporting to tell ‘the truth’ about a religion that it doesn’t like and is avowedly out to destroy.

In fact, pretty much everything.

So.

What part of the information on CARM don’t you agree with?

 

[dianaiad]

Will some one please answer the OP!

We did. Weren’t you reading?

 

[dianaiad]

Diana, you’re not a “Provo Mormon” are you?

Nope. Born and raised in J.Golden country, spent most of my life in California, though I went back to Cache Valley for a few years after my husband’s death so my kids could get a decent education.

Even the Prophet himself shakes his head at the antics of “Provo Mormons”

Plus, they have that incredibly lame school there. I mean seriously, can BYU do ANYTHING right? They lose at football, they lose at basketball and they will never be the top school in the state.

Bryan
University of Utah Alumni

(snort) Shoulda known.
Mother of two Utah State University graduates…(me, I got stuck with California universities.)

 

[dianaiad]

Take historical information, add some decent writings about a variety of experiences and then add tons and tons of biased bigotry and you have the UTLM.

You can’t get a true feel for it unless you have been there in person. I’ve met Sandra who is quite nice when discussing other things. I believe I read that Gerald (Jerald?) has passed.

Yes, he died a couple of years ago, and Sandra IS nice, personally.

While UTLM has done some good things regarding the history of the LDS church that the modern church sometimes glosses over (like revisions to McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine) but you have to remember that they do have personal axes to grind.

Hey. Don’t forget that those revisions were mandated by the CHURCH, sir, at the time he was called to the Quorum of the Twelve. It was one thing to let someone publish something like "Mormon Doctrine’ and put a lot of his personal opinion into it when he wasn’t that high up in the hierarchy, but when he was called to be an apostle, he was told to bring his opinions in line with actual doctrine. That’s the flip side of free will; we believe in it, we are supposed to use it, but sometimes decisions will come back and bite us in the behind. That’s what happened to McConkie.

FWIW: I always felt that the biggest strike against the LDS church in terms of those allied against it is that it’s entire history was written in English and therefore not open to some of the dodges of other religions that can claim “translation” issues.

I would be horrified if anyone seriously wanted to start harming Mormons. Much of my wife’s family is LDS. If you get 10 missionaries who went to Louisville, KY at least 8 of them will know “Sister Doris” who is my sister-in-law.

I think the biggest problem with the history of the church is that it was written by people, about a topic that one simply cannot be objective about. If you are LDS, you are going to view, and present, events one way—and if you are not, you are going to view, and present, those same events in a negative way. There isn’t any neutral ground here, for any religion.

 

[sweetnay]

Of course we are ‘invested in’ Mormonism. We have faith in Christ and the doctrines we believe are true–and we believe that we find them best in Mormonism. It is no more a desperation ploy than your own faith is to you.

I’m certain that you would take instant, and quite understandable, offense if I were to tell you that the only reason you stay with your own faith is because you are so heavily invested in it that you ‘have’ to make it work.

…and those websites are very much alike. The only difference that I can see is that you like the anti-Mormon one, because it tells you what you want to hear about us; it scratches your itching ears and validates your bigotry and intolerance.

So I’m an intolerant bigot (with itchy ears to boot!)because I speak the Truth about Mormonism. Ppl who disagree w ur doctrines are anti-mormon…sigh…I know the tired drill. Shoot the messenger.

So every site that is not approved by the Mormon Marketing Monster Machine is “anti mormon”. Convenient.
I question everything all the time and left Catholocism for years-returning after studying independantly and it holds up!

 

[dianaiad]

So I’m an intolerant bigot (with itchy ears to boot!)because I speak the Truth about Mormonism.

No. You are that because of the way you 'speak the ‘Truth’ about Mormonism."

Ppl who disagree w ur doctrines are anti-mormon…sigh…I know the tired drill. Shoot the messenger.

So every site that is not approved by the Mormon Marketing Monster Machine is “anti mormon”. Convenient.

Thank you for illustrating my point. You do realize that you are doing everything from appealing to ridicule to hasty generalization, not to mention begging a question; every statement you made is fallacious…and incorrect.

After all, I’m the one who has been emphasizing that simply disagreeing with LDS doctrine does not an anti make: it is the WAY one disagrees with the doctrine that determines whether one is an ‘anti-’

My post was specifically about the Tanner’s site, comparing it to CARM.

I question everything all the time and left Catholocism for years-returning after studying independantly and it holds up!

Actually, from where I sit it looks like you’ll swallow just about anything as long as it agrees with your notions of who to hate.

 

[sweetnay]

No. You are that because of the way you 'speak the ‘Truth’ about Mormonism."

Thank you for illustrating my point. You do realize that you are doing everything from appealing to ridicule to hasty generalization, not to mention begging a question; every statement you made is fallacious…and incorrect.

After all, I’m the one who has been emphasizing that simply disagreeing with LDS doctrine does not an anti make: it is the WAY one disagrees with the doctrine that determines whether one is an ‘anti-’

My post was specifically about the Tanner’s site, comparing it to CARM.

Actually, from where I sit it looks like you’ll swallow just about anything as long as it agrees with your notions of who to hate.

Funny and ironic you of ALL posters should mention ‘hate’.

So because I don’t sugar coat the Truth, I’m anti-mormon. This really is tiresome-have you nothing of substance to counter with?? Utlm.org is no where NEAR the caricature of CARM and you know it! Aside from personal commentaries and experiences, UTLM uses LDS writings and YOUR own doctrine to show the fallacy of the heresy of mormonism. We’re not talking about ex-mormon.org after all, a bastion for atheists and the like. Is that an anti-mormonism statement?
If you imply that I hate mormons, you’ve failed arm chair psychology, once again. I have lds family whom I love dearly and see frequently–the lds ppl I know are all kind and good hearted–just lost spiritually. It’s mormonISM that I disagree with.
Oh… and Thank YOU for illustrating my point to a T,
When confronted with Truth, you bash the messenger. I suppose you’d have to, its easier than a truthful examination…