Mormons; why don't you have crosses in your churches?

[dianaiad]

Funny and ironic you of ALL posters should mention ‘hate’.

Me of all posters? ???

So because I don’t sugar coat the Truth, I’m anti-mormon. This really is tiresome-have you nothing of substance to counter with?? Utlm.org is no where NEAR the caricature of CARM and you know it!

Actually, I don’t, or I wouldn’t have compared them. True, there are worse ones out there, but the Lighthouse ministries is the site YOU chose.

Aside from personal commentaries and experiences, UTLM uses LDS writings and YOUR own doctrine to show the fallacy of the heresy of mormonism. We’re not talking about ex-mormon.org after all, a bastion for atheists and the like. Is that an anti-mormonism statement?
If you imply that I hate mormons, you’ve failed arm chair psychology, once again. I have lds family whom I love dearly and see frequently–the lds ppl I know are all kind and good hearted–just lost spiritually. It’s mormonISM that I disagree with.

All I can judge by is the way you post and the things you write. If you are different in your relationships with your family and friends, good for you. It shows promise. However, if you are one way with them, and another way with complete strangers on a forum like this one, in which venue are you being hypocritical?

Oh… and Thank YOU for illustrating my point to a T,
When confronted with Truth, you bash the messenger. I suppose you’d have to, its easier than a truthful examination…

I didn’t address you, sir. (sir? or ma’am?) I addressed your comments and actions. As for you, you realize that you haven’t actually made any doctrinal points, right? All you have done on this thread is complain that I am ‘shooting the messenger’ for declaring the ‘truth’ when I simply claim that Lighthouse Ministries is a self declared anti-site, and it’s credibility for examining the ‘truth’ about Mormonism is right down there with CARM, Jack Chick and the like.

Should I be upset and claim that you are simply ‘bashing the messenger’ because I mentioned CARM? After all, if Lighthouse ministries is credible, then so, in the same measure, is CARM…and I have the same right to declare CARM authoritative for Catholicism that you have for declaring Lighthouse ministries to be authoritative about Mormonism; that is, none at all.

 

[sweetnay]

Me of all posters? ???

Actually, I don’t, or I wouldn’t have compared them. True, there are worse ones out there, but the Lighthouse ministries is the site YOU chose.

All I can judge by is the way you post and the things you write. If you are different in your relationships with your family and friends, good for you. It shows promise. However, if you are one way with them, and another way with complete strangers on a forum like this one, in which venue are you being hypocritical?

I didn’t address you, sir. (sir? or ma’am?) I addressed your comments and actions. As for you, you realize that you haven’t actually made any doctrinal points, right? All you have done on this thread is complain that I am ‘shooting the messenger’ for declaring the ‘truth’ when I simply claim that Lighthouse Ministries is a self declared anti-site, and it’s credibility for examining the ‘truth’ about Mormonism is right down there with CARM, Jack Chick and the like.

Should I be upset and claim that you are simply ‘bashing the messenger’ because I mentioned CARM? After all, if Lighthouse ministries is credible, then so, in the same measure, is CARM…and I have the same right to declare CARM authoritative for Catholicism that you have for declaring Lighthouse ministries to be authoritative about Mormonism; that is, none at all.

by labeling me a hypocrite, I assume you are this plesant with everyone all the time–not sure what’s worse–but I digress.
Please explain the following quote from UTLM.org:
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” Joseph Smith(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

or lessse, um

why your secret temple ceremonies quietly changed in April 1990, removing the penalities for revealing the temple ceremony details which included drawing your finger across your throat to mimic cutting and slashing your bowels? and the removal of the Devil hiring the Christian minister to preach Christian orthodoxy?? these were all considered’sacred, unchangable, revealed by God Himself’ but after a survey went out about the temple ceremonies–some folks decided these werent so appealing…so forget what HF revealed to Joseph…we’ll just get rid of these unseemly aspects…

or why Polygamy is STILL in your D&C 132?? Because Polygamy exists in the the mormon celestial kingdom–but see, they wont tell us these things at LDS.org—

milk before the meat and all

 

[jenlovesyu]

Actually, we don’t believe that the unbaptized go to hell at all–at least, not because they are unbaptized.

but thank you for your attempt to cover that up.

It’s because you don’t believe in Hell at all. Just 3 heavens.

Hi sorry I’m jumping into this conversation a bit late but I use to be Mormon so I find this thread fascinating.

I don’t understand (and I mean in this in pure honesty) why Mormons honor Jesus at all since you don’t believe in Hell. Jesus came to save us from Hell. Without Hell, what’s there to save? Jesus is merely reduced to a “nice man” when you don’t believe in eternal torment versus eternal salvation.

Also, Mormons believe that they themselves become gods when they die. Again, if you yourself become a god, what’s the point of respecting Jesus at all?

I am not asking these questions to be rude or poke fun. I am just confused by it all.

 

[dianaiad]

by labeling me a hypocrite, I assume you are this plesant with everyone all the time–not sure what’s worse–but I digress.

Actually, I am always pleasant. Until, that is someone is unpleasant to me first, and even then I address the topic and the words, not the person. You treat me with courtesy, I will treat you with courtesy, every single time—and I am never discourteous first.

Please explain the following quote from UTLM.org:
“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” Joseph Smith(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

I never claimed that Joseph Smith was perfect, y’know. Now, WHAT sort of things did Jonah say? WHAT was the reason Moses didn’t get to go into the promised land? Could it be a bit of hubris there, too? Let God handle this issue, the way He did with Jonah and Moses.

or lessse, um
:

I will not discuss Temple ceremonies with you, Ever. If you were ever LDS, you know that I won’t, and you know why—and your attempt to get me to do so is absolute evidence of your anti-status and your disrespect for my beliefs and complete misrepresentation of them. I’m quite certain that you will now come in and say that I won’t discuss Temple ceremonies with you because it is secret…a cult thing.

In reality, it’s a promise. It is sacred, and I don’t break my promises. Do with it as you will…but remember that WE are the ones who put the Temple ceremony script in the Congressional Record, and it is freely available all over the internet.

Just do not ask me to discuss it, nor expect me or any other faithful LDS member to participate in a thread in which these things are discussed. To us it would be like like a good Catholic finding someone dressing a statue of Mary the mother of Christ in underwear, carving a swastika on a synagogue door, or urinating in the sacramental wine. It really is that important to us. Please respect that.

Or, if you can’t respect that, just get used to it. If you can’t, or won’t, you may consider yourself to have ‘won’, because I will leave the conversation faster than an orthodox rabbi would leave a pig farm.

 

[st_Anthony]

goodness that was a very interesting debate!!! Irespect all faiths but some are very hard to understand or the they seem to contridict themselfs and am I sorry The mormons are one of those Groups. Yes why to they do their sermonies in secret I ask a mormon once and you think they would be over heard or something strange the way they " dont discusse it" any way any catholic sermony is there for all to see. and the Cross is a sign of pure love for us thta Jesus offered to the father as prohetised in old testament by the God through the prophets so no one can argue with that

 

[Zundrah]

True, I was just giving the answer I had been given to the same question.

How did this topic get so off topic?

Threads about mormons always go off topic because catholics and mormons both claim to have the Earthly authority!

LOL - as a protestant this use to be funny to watch, but now it just isn’t… Catholics, I love you! I’m with you! Go and defeat those mormons!

 

[sweetnay]

Actually, I am always pleasant. Until, that is someone is unpleasant to me first, and even then I address the topic and the words, not the person. You treat me with courtesy, I will treat you with courtesy, every single time—and I am never discourteous first.

I never claimed that Joseph Smith was perfect, y’know. Now, WHAT sort of things did Jonah say? WHAT was the reason Moses didn’t get to go into the promised land? Could it be a bit of hubris there, too? Let God handle this issue, the way He did with Jonah and Moses.

I will not discuss Temple ceremonies with you, Ever. If you were ever LDS, you know that I won’t, and you know why—and your attempt to get me to do so is absolute evidence of your anti-status and your disrespect for my beliefs and complete misrepresentation of them. I’m quite certain that you will now come in and say that I won’t discuss Temple ceremonies with you because it is secret…a cult thing.

In reality, it’s a promise. It is sacred, and I don’t break my promises. Do with it as you will…but remember that WE are the ones who put the Temple ceremony script in the Congressional Record, and it is freely available all over the internet.

Just do not ask me to discuss it, nor expect me or any other faithful LDS member to participate in a thread in which these things are discussed. To us it would be like like a good Catholic finding someone dressing a statue of Mary the mother of Christ in underwear, carving a swastika on a synagogue door, or urinating in the sacramental wine. It really is that important to us. Please respect that.

Or, if you can’t respect that, just get used to it. If you can’t, or won’t, you may consider yourself to have ‘won’, because I will leave the conversation faster than an orthodox rabbi would leave a pig farm.

Oh Diana, you make me laugh ma’ dear!! The mental gymnastics you go through to justify the ridiculous actions of Jsmith just kill me…I like how you avoided DandC 132 BTW.

I’ll pray for you to come to know the True Christ–really.
The freedom of the Blood of Christ is something you can’t earn, pay 10prcnt of ur income for, wear special garments need a temple permit,have a temple marriage etc etc
Its free for the asking. No one is worthy.

You do bring out my uncharitable side at times and this site shouldn’t be an occassion for me to sin.

So I’m off to play w my three little ones

 

[Charlotte408]

The only substantial symbol you will see is on the top of their temples, which is the angel Moroni with his trumpet point to Zion (Missouri) where they believe Christ will return.

What?

Can someone elaborate? Why do they think ‘Zion’ is Missouri??? Why does the thought of Jesus Christ coming from Missouri sound so ridiculous to me? I’m not trying to be mean, but, like, should we wait for him infront of a Walmart?? or…

you know what I’m saying??

Maybe I’m wayyy wrong for thinking/feeling that way, I guess ANY place could be graced with His presence, and so could Missouri, buuut…idk…I guess always pictured His return, differently…more majestic…or something…

 

[Charlotte408]

First of all…I know NOTHING about the Mormom religion, as you can tell from my last post, which btw was not intended to make fun of anyone…that just really threw me off…and I’m still wondering what would make them think Zion is Missouri…random…but if you totally have some kind of evidence that your religion goes by, then ok…I’d like to know what it is just for knowledge sakes…

but that aside, I read further into the conversation and have a couple questions…

First, this girl:

It’s because you don’t believe in Hell at all. Just 3 heavens.

Hi sorry I’m jumping into this conversation a bit late but I use to be Mormon so I find this thread fascinating.

I don’t understand (and I mean in this in pure honesty) why Mormons honor Jesus at all since you don’t believe in Hell. Jesus came to save us from Hell. Without Hell, what’s there to save? Jesus is merely reduced to a “nice man” when you don’t believe in eternal torment versus eternal salvation.

Also, Mormons believe that they themselves become gods when they die. Again, if you yourself become a god, what’s the point of respecting Jesus at all?

I am not asking these questions to be rude or poke fun. I am just confused by it all.

asked some verrrrrrrrrrrry good questions. I never knew any of this? 3 heavens?? dianaiad, is this true? I never saw a response to these questions, and theyre good ones. I’d like to know…

then…

I will not discuss Temple ceremonies with you, Ever. If you were ever LDS, you know that I won’t, and you know why—and your attempt to get me to do so is absolute evidence of your anti-status and your disrespect for my beliefs and complete misrepresentation of them. I’m quite certain that you will now come in and say that I won’t discuss Temple ceremonies with you because it is secret…a cult thing.

In reality, it’s a promise. It is sacred, and I don’t break my promises. Do with it as you will…but remember that WE are the ones who put the Temple ceremony script in the Congressional Record, and it is freely available all over the internet

I dont understand this. And I’m sooo not judgeing you or your faith…my uncle married a mormon…lol…and I love her just the same…

but I’m curious, why the secrecy? is that part of your religion, that you made a promise to jesus that you would keep your religion secret? I’m not trying to imply, Im just guessing and hoping you’ll correct me…how do you reach out to people and evangelize?? And is it true that mormons believe you have to EARN your way, monetarily, into heaven???

 

[happilycatholic]

I will not discuss Temple ceremonies with you, Ever. If you were ever LDS, you know that I won’t, and you know why—and your attempt to get me to do so is absolute evidence of your anti-status and your disrespect for my beliefs and complete misrepresentation of them. I’m quite certain that you will now come in and say that I won’t discuss Temple ceremonies with you because it is secret…a cult thing.

In reality, it’s a promise. It is sacred, and I don’t break my promises. Do with it as you will…but remember that WE are the ones who put the Temple ceremony script in the Congressional Record, and it is freely available all over the internet.

Just do not ask me to discuss it, nor expect me or any other faithful LDS member to participate in a thread in which these things are discussed. To us it would be like like a good Catholic finding someone dressing a statue of Mary the mother of Christ in underwear, carving a swastika on a synagogue door, or urinating in the sacramental wine. It really is that important to us. Please respect that.

Hi dianaiad:

Can you tell us why you can’t and why it’s so sacred? I cannot conceive of Christ ever wanting his message kept secret.

 

[cthulhubryan]

Yes, he died a couple of years ago, and Sandra IS nice, personally.

Hey. Don’t forget that those revisions were mandated by the CHURCH, sir, at the time he was called to the Quorum of the Twelve. It was one thing to let someone publish something like "Mormon Doctrine’ and put a lot of his personal opinion into it when he wasn’t that high up in the hierarchy, but when he was called to be an apostle, he was told to bring his opinions in line with actual doctrine. That’s the flip side of free will; we believe in it, we are supposed to use it, but sometimes decisions will come back and bite us in the behind. That’s what happened to McConkie.

Ok, that is good to know. I never got to meet Bruce R. but I have much respect for his brother Oscar, with whom I used to work.

I think the biggest problem with the history of the church is that it was written by people, about a topic that one simply cannot be objective about. If you are LDS, you are going to view, and present, events one way—and if you are not, you are going to view, and present, those same events in a negative way. There isn’t any neutral ground here, for any religion.

I’ll give you an amen on that one.

 

[Janet1983]

Hi dianaiad:

Can you tell us why you can’t and why it’s so sacred? I cannot conceive of Christ ever wanting his message kept secret.

I guess for the same reason masonic lodges don’t officially share their rites… they are mainly the same… J. Smith “received” the rites shortly after becoming a Master Mason… Even the oaths used to be the same until the 1980s. After that there was no more oath, but the rites however are being kept pretty secretive till today.

The full text of an Endowment Ceremony of 1990 including the warning not to discuss this is to be found here…

“As with the other aspects of the Endowment, you are under solemn obligation not to discuss these sacred matters outside of the temple.”

 

[dianaiad]

goodness that was a very interesting debate!!! Irespect all faiths but some are very hard to understand or the they seem to contridict themselfs and am I sorry The mormons are one of those Groups. Yes why to they do their sermonies in secret I ask a mormon once and you think they would be over heard or something strange the way they " dont discusse it" any way any catholic sermony is there for all to see. and the Cross is a sign of pure love for us thta Jesus offered to the father as prohetised in old testament by the God through the prophets so no one can argue with that

What part of “WE put the Temple ceremony script in the Congressional record” and 'it’s all over the internet" did you miss? There is no secrecy there. However, it is sacred to us. We don’t discuss it because getting into arguments about it demeans it to us; we promised. I find a special spirit of peace and joy in the Temple that would be affected if I brought with me memories of acrimonious discussions from outside.

We know what the Temple ceremonies are. . So do (or can) you if you simply look for them. Before a Temple is dedicated, everybody can enter and see it; there was a very recent link in one of these forums about how the local Catholic bishop was given a personal tour of one.

You can find pictures of the interior of more than one Temple on the internet.

Go.

Knock yourself out.

you didn’t promise anything, but I’m going to ask you to respect that those of us who have gone to the Temple have made those promises.

 

[dianaiad]

It’s because you don’t believe in Hell at all. Just 3 heavens.

yes and no. We do indeed believe in a hell–an ‘outer darkness’ for those who commit the unpardonable sin–who knowingly and utterly reject Christ. Satan/Lucifer (whatever you wish to name him) will be there, along with those who deliberately choose him. It is a place, we believe, utterly devoid of the presence of God. I’d call that hell, wouldn’t you?

Hi sorry I’m jumping into this conversation a bit late but I use to be Mormon so I find this thread fascinating.

You used to be a Mormon and you didn’t remember about Perdition…Outer Darkness…hell?

I don’t understand (and I mean in this in pure honesty) why Mormons honor Jesus at all since you don’t believe in Hell. Jesus came to save us from Hell. Without Hell, what’s there to save? Jesus is merely reduced to a “nice man” when you don’t believe in eternal torment versus eternal salvation.

Also, Mormons believe that they themselves become gods when they die. Again, if you yourself become a god, what’s the point of respecting Jesus at all?

I am not asking these questions to be rude or poke fun. I am just confused by it all.

Yes, you are confused…and it doesn’t surprise me at all that you left the church, if this is what you honestly think we believe.

However, since we do indeed believe in a hell, the rest of your post is moot.

 

[happilycatholic]

I guess for the same reason masonic lodges don’t officially share their rites… they are mainly the same… J. Smith “received” the rites shortly after becoming a Master Mason… Even the oaths used to be the same until the 1980s. After that there was no more oath, but the rites however are being kept pretty secretive till today.

The full text of an Endowment Ceremony of 1990 including the warning not to discuss this is to be found here…

“As with the other aspects of the Endowment, you are under solemn obligation not to discuss these sacred matters outside of the temple.”

That was interesting. Thank you.

 

[Charlotte408]

Ok so I went to that site, and I read through some of the ‘endowment ritual’ i think it was and…its different…ok…to each their own…and i understand and respect that you guys ‘promise not to talk about it’ because you dont want to bring whatever arguements in and demean your beliefs, or however you put it…i can respect that…

but im still curious about the zion=missouri thing…? And a simple yes or no will suffice, do you guys believe that the way to heaven is through monetary gain?? Like you have to earn your way in??

You should just post a thread to educate us then, on your mormon beliefs. I, myself personally, am not trying to attack or argue your points, I’m just curious…

 

[jenlovesyu]

Alright Dianaiad forgive me because perhaps I was taught wrong. I’ve been told different things by Mormons themselves.

I do know that when Mormonism first started out, it wasn’t inclusive of people with more melanin in their skin, aka blacks. I find it hard to believe that racism comes from God. There were several other legitamate reasons of why I left but I do happen to be half-African american so people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young really bother me. I was also told at one point by a Mormon that I was surely going to hell because I happen to be colored. It’s no wonder why you don’t see too many black Mormons walking around until way after the '70’s.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Let the spin begin.

 

[Janet1983]

yes and no. We do indeed believe in a hell–an ‘outer darkness’ for those who commit the unpardonable sin–who knowingly and utterly reject Christ. Satan/Lucifer (whatever you wish to name him) will be there, along with those who deliberately choose him. It is a place, we believe, utterly devoid of the presence of God. I’d call that hell, wouldn’t you?
You used to be a Mormon and you didn’t remember about Perdition…Outer Darkness…hell?
Yes, you are confused…and it doesn’t surprise me at all that you left the church, if this is what you honestly think we believe.
However, since we do indeed believe in a hell, the rest of your post is moot.

I wouldn’t call this belief a belief in hell…
According to Bruce R. McConkie’s Mormon Doctrine hell will be mostly empty after the resurrection… Meaning that it served as some kind of purgatory and after the resurrection most of those who were in hell get into the Telestial Glory…
“After their resurrection, the great majority of those who have suffered in hell will pass into the telestial kingdom; the balance, cursed as sons of perdition, will be consigned to partake of endless woe with the devil and his angels.” (p. 350)
The sons of perdition however are just very few… Mostly the Lucifer and his angels, Cain and maybe a few others like Judas…
Even Hitler got all the temple rituals posthumous (somebody actually did get baptised for Hitler!!). Women do not end up there at all according to Brigham Young, “Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy.” (Discourse deliver October 8, 1861, p. 6)
Mormon doctrine teaches that those who are “sons of perdition” are those who had a sure and perfect knowledge of the truth, then voluntarily turned from it and committed the “sin unto death.” It is very difficult for a person to receive this kind of sure knowledge in the first place. Such persons are normally high-level LDS leaders. Spencer W. Kimball stated, “The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin” (The Miracle o Forgiveness, p.123)" Even apostasy from the Mormon Church does not automatically qualify a person to this punishment.
That is watering hell down already… but here comes the peak:
Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses 1:118) and John Widtsoe (Evidence and Reconciliations, pp. 213-214) taught that those sons of perdition will be disorganized and have to begin life all over again in another god’s universe… So where is hell? According to this there is none…

 

[dianaiad]

What?

Can someone elaborate? Why do they think ‘Zion’ is Missouri??? Why does the thought of Jesus Christ coming from Missouri sound so ridiculous to me? I’m not trying to be mean, but, like, should we wait for him infront of a Walmart?? or…

Now, now, that’s not very complimentary to Missouri. In fact, it’s down right nasty…and why not Missouri? It’s just a name, and an area that happens to be rather beautiful. In fact, Jesus was ‘born in a barn’ in an out of the way podunk place in the middle East that none of the best people acknowledged as being worth anything–and in fact is/was a place that wasn’t up to much except for the fact that it had so much religious significance to a backwards people, and that Jesus was born there.

You know what I’m saying??

In reality, “Zion” is where the righteous in heart are, at the moment.

By the way, the statues on the Temples point east, just…east. Not all do, and none of them point to Missouri, specifically. The most important aspect, it seems, is that Moroni be visible from the front of the Temple–that generally leaves him pointing either east, or ‘easterly,’ though there are a few that face due west or ‘westerly.’

Maybe I’m wayyy wrong for thinking/feeling that way, I guess ANY place could be graced with His presence, and so could Missouri, buuut…idk…I guess always pictured His return, differently…more majestic…or something…

What, and you don’t see anything ‘majestic’ about the Mississippi river valley? My, my, how familiarity does breed contempt.

Still, if it helps, we do believe that His second coming will happen in Jerusalem, that other out of the way podunk desert place of no importance–except for the religion part, that is.