Mormons: Why don't you pray to Jesus?

[MelanieAnne]

We just went through a whole thread where Mormons were unable to provide any evidence for this imagined apostasy. Sorry, but you have been deceived.

Indeed. And further, each Mormon who made the attempt to even explain the “apostasy” in that thread had a different idea of what it was. So there is not even a consistent definition of this so-called apostasy, much less a shred of evidence for it.

Similar threads on this subject in the past have led to the same result. In the end, Mormons, confronted with the utter lack of evidence to support their claim, rely on “faith”. But this is not a matter of faith, because the record is pretty clear that there was no “great apostasy”. The obvious conclusion is that it is the invention of Joseph Smith to bolster his claim of “restoring” the church.

 

[mfbukowski]

This whole thing is just stupid.

What is the “Our Father”? It is an example of prayer given by Jesus himself to teach us how to pray.

How does it start? duh. It starts with “Our Father who art in heaven…”

Jesus when he was on earth did not pray to himself.

“Father, if it be thy will…”

We are just following his example. That simple. I am not going to get into the Godhead etc. You asked a question, I answered it. Period.

 

[MelanieAnne]

So Mormons place limitations on God? Then He is not omnipotent?

 

[mfbukowski]

Sorry, but I am afraid I probably know more than most. I had the King Follet discourse explained to me by a member of the upper quorum.

This thread is about Mormons not praying to Jesus. If they do not understand who the real Jesus is then it is central to the theme of this thread.

You know nothing. There is no such thing as the “upper quorum”. I had my catholic education through the magicstairium, so I know more than you.

 

[mfbukowski]

Mormons do not believe that they are three separate “personages” but rather are Three separate deities. For their “father god” was once completely human as was Jesus and the holy spirit. They believe also in the apotheosis of currently mortal men into gods of their own planet.

If I start my own religion and teach that my dog is the true creator of the universe and my dog’s name is Jesus that does not make mine a Christian religion.

this is so far out there it’s actually funny. RebeccaJ please at least correct this guy. I know you know more than this. Jesus and the HG were human on other planets? Ok. You forgot about re-incarnation into green aliens. But if you are blue you get a better planet. And the yellows-- well we won’t even talk about them. Too sacred.
I already said too much. But it seems you already know that God spelled backward is dog. You aren’t supposed to disclose that. But I thought the symbol for Jesus was a fish. Shows what I know. How come you know big words like apotheosis? Gotta look that one up.

 

[RebeccaJ]

this is so far out there it’s actually funny. RebeccaJ please at least correct this guy. I know you know more than this. Jesus and the HG were human on other planets? Ok.

Mormons believe the Holy Ghost is a god waiting to happen, ie, is a spirit so hasn’t had the privilege of receiving a body for his soul to inhabit.

(I never could figure out how this spirit ended up in the Mormon godhead without a body. As the whole mormon plan goes spirit-body-spirit-resurrection-exaltation…no body to get exalted…???)

Other than that, Bryan’s got it down pretty well, I’d say.

And bukowski you know darn well there is more than one quorum in mormonism and that the “upper quorum” would be any of the 12. Stop playing stupid.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Mormons believe the Holy Ghost is a god waiting to happen, ie, is a spirit so hasn’t had the privilege of receiving a body for his soul to inhabit.

(I never could figure out how this spirit ended up in the Mormon godhead without a body. As the whole mormon plan goes spirit-body-spirit-resurrection-exaltation…no body to get exalted…???)

Other than that, Bryan’s got it down pretty well, I’d say.

And bukowski you know darn well there is more than one quorum in mormonism and that the “upper quorum” would be any of the 12. Stop playing stupid.

Is it “playing stupid”? Or something else? Maybe too close for comfort? So it’s better (?) to claim the opponent doesn’t know what they’re talking about?

 

[rmcmullan]

I’ve always thought it was a mistake to pray to Jesus. As I understand Mormon theology, Jesus is the Mediator between a fallen Man and God the Father. We made our choice in the Garden of Eden to follow our own will and in so doing reaped death. The only release from a spiritual and physical death if through Christ’s sacrifice. So everything we do is in the name of Christ.

I thought that most Christian religions understood Jesus as the Mediator. Surely this is so?

 

[mfbukowski]

Mormons believe the Holy Ghost is a god waiting to happen, ie, is a spirit so hasn’t had the privilege of receiving a body for his soul to inhabit.

(I never could figure out how this spirit ended up in the Mormon godhead without a body. As the whole mormon plan goes spirit-body-spirit-resurrection-exaltation…no body to get exalted…???)

Other than that, Bryan’s got it down pretty well, I’d say.

And bukowski you know darn well there is more than one quorum in mormonism and that the “upper quorum” would be any of the 12. Stop playing stupid.

He doesn’t know anybody in the quorum of the 12, and they would never have garbled it so incredibly badly.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

this is so far out there it’s actually funny. RebeccaJ please at least correct this guy. I know you know more than this. Jesus and the HG were human on other planets? Ok. You forgot about re-incarnation into green aliens. But if you are blue you get a better planet. And the yellows-- well we won’t even talk about them. Too sacred.
I already said too much. But it seems you already know that God spelled backward is dog. You aren’t supposed to disclose that. But I thought the symbol for Jesus was a fish. Shows what I know. How come you know big words like apotheosis? Gotta look that one up.

Hehehe…or how about 6 foot Quaker looking people on the moon…wait, wait, how about the inhabitants on the sun!

President Brigham Young: “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?..when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)

 

[RebeccaJ]

He doesn’t know anybody in the quorum of the 12, and they would never have garbled it so incredibly badly.

Mormons seem to think us former mormons existed in some sort of bubble where we never had contact with anyone but ourselves. You’d be surprised by the people we know. You just don’t want to believe us is all. Things like, less than two years ago I was sitting in a private party not more ten feet away from Gordon B. Hinckley.

Just because we are no longer Mormon, does not mean that we have lost all contact with Mormons.

Your apostles are known for getting things garbled. It is your excuse for McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine” after all.

 

[mfbukowski]

Hehehe…or how about 6 foot Quaker looking people on the moon…wait, wait, how about the inhabitants on the sun!

This of course is not doctrine. Yet you believe that bread is flesh and blood. That IS doctrine. There is symbolism in the glory of the sun and moon and stars you will never comprehend.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This of course is not doctrine. Yet you believe that bread is flesh and blood. That IS doctrine. There is symbolism in the glory of the sun and moon and stars you will never comprehend.

There is truth in the reality of Christ’s Sacrifice that you refuse to acknowledge. REALITY not mere symbolism.

If you did, you would fall on your knees and worship the One who died for you and pray to Him for His mercy.

As it is, you refuse to even speak to Him.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This of course is not doctrine. Yet you believe that bread is flesh and blood. That IS doctrine. There is symbolism in the glory of the sun and moon and stars you will never comprehend.

It appears to me, that Catholics are proud of their doctrines and traditions that are tracable back to the teachings of Christ, the Apostles and the early Church fathers.

It also appears there are many things spoken about, by who the Mormons believe to be a prophet, that they try to distance themselves from.

I’d be interested in trying to understand the symbolism, as Mormons understand it, if you’d care to take the time to explain it.

 

[cthulhubryan]

You know nothing. There is no such thing as the “upper quorum”. I had my catholic education through the magicstairium, so I know more than you.

Actually, there is an upper quorum of 60 and a lower quorum of 60. These sit below the 12 apostles who are just below the 1st presidency. Please hold your nasty little insults until you check the facts.

 

[cthulhubryan]

this is so far out there it’s actually funny. RebeccaJ please at least correct this guy. I know you know more than this. Jesus and the HG were human on other planets? Ok. You forgot about re-incarnation into green aliens. But if you are blue you get a better planet. And the yellows-- well we won’t even talk about them. Too sacred.
I already said too much. But it seems you already know that God spelled backward is dog. You aren’t supposed to disclose that. But I thought the symbol for Jesus was a fish. Shows what I know. How come you know big words like apotheosis? Gotta look that one up.

You post lacks anything approaching Charity. Please try to control your tone and words.

 

[cthulhubryan]

He doesn’t know anybody in the quorum of the 12, and they would never have garbled it so incredibly badly.

you’ve now called me a liar, insulted me and gone for beyond the Pale. I will be PMing the moderators about your horrible posts.

 

[MelanieAnne]

There is truth in the reality of Christ’s Sacrifice that you refuse to acknowledge. REALITY not mere symbolism.

If you did, you would fall on your knees and worship the One who died for you and pray to Him for His mercy.

As it is, you refuse to even speak to Him.

I am seeing a common theme here Rebecca. It would appear that if the Mormons can’t understand something, the immediate conclusion is that it cannot be true. More than once I have seen Mormon posters say something or another doesn’t “make sense”. I suspect that Jesus and “Heavenly Father” both having a body “makes sense” but transubstantiation does not. After all, it’s hard to understand how something that looks like a wafer could be the body of Christ. And figuring out how transubstantiation actually WORKS is beyond all of us.

Under their theology, Jesus is an intercessor, which pretty much makes Him a subordinate God in the Mormon pantheon. This “makes sense” to Mormons, so praying to Jesus doesn’t “make sense”, because, after all He isn’t God to them.

But what this does is place limitations on the divine. It’s another way of saying that God is not omnipotent. If the power of God is limited to what we can understand, He can’t do nearly as much as some of us believe He has.

I don’t understand things like transubstantiation. I have no idea how it works. But I know that Jesus told us what the Eucharist is and I believe Him. Those that attempt to convert the Eucharist into something that is merely a symbolic remembrance are often unfamiliar with the context of the Last Supper, Passover, and what a scandal it was for some Jews that Jesus would introduce this change into the Passover. But more importantly, they are denying the truth of plain words of Jesus Christ.

But something I definitely understand is that something like transubstantiation would be pretty easy for the God that created the universe and all that is in it. We have evidence of that all around us.

Bottom line ~ it seems pretty clear that the Mormon theology is based on things that are easier for the human mind to relate to/understand. When you consider that “Heavenly Father” is one of many “Gods”, clearly He did not create the universe because He started out somewhere as a man but has now achieved exaltation. Maybe some of these other things truly are not possible for such a being. But then He would also not be omnipotent. So He must not be God.

 

[BDawg]

Hehehe…or how about 6 foot Quaker looking people on the moon…wait, wait, how about the inhabitants on the sun!

Hi Prodigal,

In the first case, the comment about Quakers living on the moon was recorded by Philo Dibble, who was 10 years old at the time. What if it were a joke? What if he remembered the comments incorrectly?

In the second case, Brigham Young asked his audience, “Do you think the Sun is inhabited? I rather think so.” Maybe he looked at Revelation 19:17, where John said he saw an “angel standing in the Sun.” I kind of like the idea of angels living on the Sun–if you feel the need to disprove something that Brigham Young specifically said was his opinion, maybe you could go to the Sun and come back to tell us what you saw.

Please. I could come up with way more embarrassing stuff that Mormon General Authorities have said. You make it too easy for us when you come up with that kind of cream-puff stuff.

 

[BDawg]

Here’s my take on why we don’t pray to Jesus.

We are told to pray “to” the Father, “in the name of” Jesus Christ, and “through” the Holy Spirit. For us, prayer is supposed to be a Trinitarian experience. If a prayer only involves one member of the Godhead, or some Saint who isn’t even a member of the Godhead, then it is missing something, from our perspective. (Although I’m sure that God accepts Catholic prayers in the spirit they are intended. I don’t mean to put you down by saying this.)

For about the thousandth time since I have been participating here, I notice that the Catholics here are generally disregarding the fact that Mormons DO believe in the unity of the Trinity in every aspect EXCEPT unity of “being.” We believe in the kind of Trinity that we can eventually be one with, in the same way that they are one in each other. In other words, we are just taking Jesus at his word.

" 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 

 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me" (John 17:20-23)

An exception to the rule is when Jesus is standing right there in front of us. In the Book of Mormon (3 Nephi), there is an instance where Jesus appeared directly to the people, and they worshiped him directly.

So whatever the reasons Mormons don’t usually pray directly to Jesus, it isn’t because we don’t believe he is worthy of being worshiped.