Mormons: Why Jesus?

[johnnycatholic]

If Mormonism teaches that even adulterers and murderers get to go to telestial heaven (after temporary hell) then why is belief in Jesus necessary for salvation? You get heaven any way you slice it, so what is Jesus atoning for? Why bother spreading the faith at all? More 10% tithes?

 

[Annie_B]

If Mormonism teaches that even adulterers and murderers get to go to telestial heaven (after temporary hell) then why is belief in Jesus necessary for salvation? You get heaven any way you slice it, so what is Jesus atoning for? Why bothe her spreading the faith at all? More 10% tithes?

There are three levels of the afterlife. The ultimate being the Celestial. That is where Jesus and God the father are. The unrepentant sinner, such as you mentioned, gets to spend eternity out of the presence of God. Would that not be hell to you? Also, as a passing note regarding 10% tithing; the LDS Church did NOT make that one up - it is in the Bible! Also, the tithing is literally left up to the conscience of the individual. Yes, there is “tithing settlement” with the bishop, but it is still ultimately left to the conscience of the individual. There is no way any bishop would be able to tell if one is paying 10% due to the fact the bishop does not know exactly how much a member makes in the first place.

Annie

 

[agangbern]

There are three levels of the afterlife.

What are these three levels of afterlife?

 

[tundramom]

There are three levels of the afterlife. The ultimate being the Celestial. That is where Jesus and God the father are. The unrepentant sinner, such as you mentioned, gets to spend eternity out of the presence of God. Would that not be hell to you? Also, as a passing note regarding 10% tithing; the LDS Church did NOT make that one up - it is in the Bible! Also, the tithing is literally left up to the conscience of the individual. Yes, there is “tithing settlement” with the bishop, but it is still ultimately left to the conscience of the individual. There is no way any bishop would be able to tell if one is paying 10% due to the fact the bishop does not know exactly how much a member makes in the first place.

Annie

Annie,
Have they changed things since I was a Mormon? I remember that one had to bring in your W-2 statement and tax return with you to tithing settlement. Are they no longer doing that?

in Christ
Steph

 

[Annie_B]

Annie,
Have they changed things since I was a Mormon? I remember that one had to bring in your W-2 statement and tax return with you to tithing settlement. Are they no longer doing that?

in Christ
Steph

Nobody I know has ever had to do that.

Annie

 

[johnnycatholic]

There are three levels of the afterlife. The ultimate being the Celestial. That is where Jesus and God the father are. The unrepentant sinner, such as you mentioned, gets to spend eternity out of the presence of God. Would that not be hell to you? Also, as a passing note regarding 10% tithing; the LDS Church did NOT make that one up - it is in the Bible! Also, the tithing is literally left up to the conscience of the individual. Yes, there is “tithing settlement” with the bishop, but it is still ultimately left to the conscience of the individual. There is no way any bishop would be able to tell if one is paying 10% due to the fact the bishop does not know exactly how much a member makes in the first place.

Annie

I thought the ultimate level of heaven was getting to be god of your own universe. Is it just a sub-universe of this one? How do you get to be with Jesus and God the father? Don’t they have their own universes to attend to? Are you saying there are two gods in this universe? If i need to break this up into different threads, please tell me because i hate it when people bombard you with 8million questions and act like they win because you only respond to some of them. Are Jesus and the Father both gods in this universe? How does it work if you get your own universe? If you could give me a breakdown, i’d appreciate it because i obviously haven’t read enough in this one area. I didn’t know there could be universe sharing.

 

[why_me]

I thought the ultimate level of heaven was getting to be god of your own universe. Is it just a sub-universe of this one? How do you get to be with Jesus and God the father? Don’t they have their own universes to attend to? Are you saying there are two gods in this universe? If i need to break this up into different threads, please tell me because i hate it when people bombard you with 8million questions and act like they win because you only respond to some of them. Are Jesus and the Father both gods in this universe? How does it work if you get your own universe? If you could give me a breakdown, i’d appreciate it because i obviously haven’t read enough in this one area. I didn’t know there could be universe sharing.

The mormon concept of heaven is rather attractive since very few people go to hell. Most go to one of the degrees of glory. I remember my catholic boyhood where the concept of heaven was harp playing and angels with wings. I remember this very clearly. And hell had the red devil with tail and pitchfork. If you created a mortal sin and did not confess your sin, off to hell you would go.

Of course this was many many years ago. Johnny…are you the same guy who posts on mormonapologetics?

 

[LaMar]

I thought the ultimate level of heaven was getting to be god of your own universe. Is it just a sub-universe of this one?

Good question.

The only thing most Mormons agree upon is that an exalted individual will eventually become God of his own planet. Whether the planet has its own universe surrounding it is not really discussed.

Bear in mind that this theology/cosmology was created in the 19th century, by people who knew little about astrophysics and astronomy. I’m not entirely sure they even had the concept of a universe (or a galaxy, etc.) in their consciousness.

How do you get to be with Jesus and God the father? Don’t they have their own universes to attend to? Are you saying there are two gods in this universe? If i need to break this up into different threads, please tell me because i hate it when people bombard you with 8million questions and act like they win because you only respond to some of them. Are Jesus and the Father both gods in this universe?

I’ll give you what I was told as a little kid. Bear in mind I thought it sounded ridiculous even then, but it is what it is.

Long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was a little boy who was born on a distant planet. His name was Elohim. He grew up, married several women, and died. Because he worshiped his own god with devotion, paid his tithing, lived a good life, he was exalted. Through various trials in the afterlife, he was put in charge of a planet called Earth. He created spirit children with his wives, and gave a couple of them bodies (Adam & Eve). Some of his spirit children led a rebellion, at some point in these early days. The leader of the rebellion is known to us as Lucifer/Satan and he and his followers were cast out as demons. The leader of the counter-revolution we know as Jesus. Jesus is not quite a God yet, the way Elohim was, but his ultimate devotion put him on the fast track to becoming like Elohim. Some day, Jesus will have his own planet, probably before any of us will.

After the attempted revolution, the most loyal spirit children were sent to earth as LDS people, born into Mormon homes. Those who were least loyal were sent here as Blacks. Before we come from the spirit world to the Earth, we pass through a veil where we forget the premortal existence, so we don’t remember any of this.

I’m sure I left some things out and may have gotten some minor details a bit off, but I think this is generally accurate.

How does it work if you get your own universe? If you could give me a breakdown, i’d appreciate it because i obviously haven’t read enough in this one area. I didn’t know there could be universe sharing.

I don’t know that this stuff will ever be settled. Current trends seem to be doing away with this part of Mormonism and this teaching might disappear within a generation or two.

 

[LaMar]

What are these three levels of afterlife?

Hi Agangbern,

One level (the one faithful Mormons inherit) is called the Celestial Kingdom. Mormon cosmology analogizes this as being similar to the glory of the sun.

The next best is called the Terrestrial Kingdom. This is compared with the glory of the moon. My understanding is that this is what believing Catholics (Muslims, Pagans, etc.) who live good lives and try to do the best they can will inherit.

The third best place is called the “Telestial” Kingdom. Where the early Mormons got that word I’m not sure. It’s compared to the glory of the stars in the sky.

There’s a place that’s roughly analogous to a Christian concept of Hell. We call it “outer darkness”. It’s not depicted as being a burning pit, but more of a gloomy place where you sit around for all eternity alone. The requirements to be sent to this place are to know the fullness of the gospel and reject it anyway. There is some debate as to whether anyone on earth will qualify, even nasty types like Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. We can be reasonably certain that Satan and the 1/3 of the spirit children that followed him will probably end up there. Maybe if a Mormon general authority leaves the church and starts practicing Satanism he might qualify, though the argument might be that if he left he didn’t really have the fullness of the gospel in the first place.

Of all these different places, the Celestial Kingdom is the only one which is not a final destination. My understanding is that this is a sort of holding area, where the best of us will continue to be tested, and may progress to becoming like God is today (i.e., in a position to rule over a planet full of people).

 

[Believe_85]

Nobody I know has ever had to do that.

Annie

This is an honest question. I thought you had to give 10% of your income to be in good standing, and in good standing to get into the temple for ceremonies. How do they determine if you are in good standing?

 

[LaMar]

This is an honest question. I thought you had to give 10% of your income to be in good standing, and in good standing to get into the temple for ceremonies. How do they determine if you are in good standing?

Actually, you’re both correct.

The Brethren have made it very clear that your local leader (in most cases where the church is well established it’s a member of the Stake Presidency) can only ask the simple question: Do you pay a full tithe. The local authorities are not allowed to ask for pay stubs, tax returns, or anything else. It’s a simple yes or no question and they’re required to take one’s word for it.

Post-modern Mormons, like me, interpret this as taking ten percent of our net income and donating it to our fellow human beings. I give a full tithe to a variety of charitable organizations, both religious and secular (St. Vincent de Paul got some of my tithing a few years ago, as has Catholic Charities, Planned Parenthood, and various other causes the church might technically object to).

About 1% goes into the actual tithing category as the church defines it. Another 4% goes into the fast offering fund, which stays in the local area and helps with disaster preparedness and things of this nature. The other 5% goes (usually in a lump sum) wherever I think it can do the most good. Often that’s outside the church, which is something I’m at peace with.

I’m sure WhyMe and other true believers will have a field day with this, but that’s the way I work things, and it has worked out fine for me.

 

[Annie_B]

This is an honest question. I thought you had to give 10% of your income to be in good standing, and in good standing to get into the temple for ceremonies. How do they determine if you are in good standing?

You are right - it is an honest question and I thought I answered it honestyl! Honestly, nobody I know has ever had to provide income/tax forms for tithing settlement. As far as keeping a record of tithing, there is a multiple copy slip that is filled out when you tithe and YOU mark down the amount and where you want the money to go (sometimes there are special offerings, fast offerings etc) Unless stated otherwise it will go to a general fund. Once a year you get a printed statement from the church stating the amount of tithing you gave. You take this and go to the bishop and discuss (in a nutshell) if this was an honest tithe of your income. When you want to go to the temple, you have a separate interview (sometimes a couple) and you are again asked if you pay an honest tithe. This is completely based on the honor system. I have never, nor do I know anyone who has, had to provide any other documentation. When I had no income, I was encouraged to tithe my time - when I was able. This would not have prevented me from getting a temple recommend in any way. You cannot “buy your way to heaven”…

Annie

 

[Believe_85]

You are right - it is an honest question and I thought I answered it honestyl!

Annie

I just prefaced the question that way so I wouldn’t come across as combative, or accusing anybody of anything! It’s hard to tell mood in text like this.

 

[Annie_B]

I just prefaced the question that way so I wouldn’t come across as combative, or accusing anybody of anything! It’s hard to tell mood in text like this.

I have found that somtimes, no matter how nice you are, there are posters here who will attack you no matter what you say or how nice you say it. I am not one of those

Annie

 

[majick275]

when I was in the bishopric we were told to spiritually “discern” if people were honestly answering the interview questions and to take their word for it unless the “spirit prompted” us that something was amiss. in that case we were to refer the situation to the bishop.

I know of no bishop who required tax returns or any other supporting documentation at tithing settlement. But I HAVE seen some people voluntarily bring those in to show they paid a full tithe. I don’t know why they felt the need to do so because I have NEVER heard that suggested at any LDS church that I attended.

The CHI also does not truly specify what a “full tithe” is. sufficient wiggle room is there for various interpretations. it is generally understood to be 10% of your income. (lot of wiggle room between net and gross) the fast offering is over and above that and is expected to be the cost (each month) of two normal meals for your family. other contributions are strictly voluntary.

the Heaven/hell thing is MUCH more complicated since there more than what has been presented here so far. at the bottom you have semitraditional “hell” called “outer darkness” where the devil and all the spirits who went with him in the pre-existence go. you only go there if you are a “son of perdition”. (lot of debate on just what that means) basically it’s understood to be those who KNEW the true gospel and freely chose to reject it. some also believe unrepentant murderers go there.

next up the telestial where the mormon apostates go (unless they ended up in outer darkness). here you also get repentant murderers and all the basic “scum of the earth”. JS said it’s so beautiful that if you saw it you might be tempted to suicide just to get there. The Holy spirit ministers here.

then the terrestrial kingdom. most mormons are likely to assign this kingdom to all of the “good” gentiles. catholics, baptists, etc. who could have listened to the missionaries but didn’t yet were still good people. here Jesus ministers

the celestial kingdom is where it gets complex. only temple endowed mormons go here. (or those non-mormons whe didn’t get the chance to convert on earth but did in the spirit world and then had their temple work done for them on earth) God the father dwells here. BUT there are 3 levels of glory within this kingdom and the lowest are servants to the highest. it used to be taught that that the lowest level here was where worthy black people would go. this is also considered to be the fate of temple endowed faithful mormons who could have but didn’t get sealed in the temple. (those who through no fault of their own didn’t get sealed will be assigned someone in the millenium. those who were sealed to someone who “didn’t make it” will be reassigned someone. it is generally thought women here will significantly outnumber men so polygamy will be the rule. earlier views are that polygamy will be the only accepted arrangement in the highest level here as that is God what decreed) not much has been taught on what the middle degree is. the highest degree are Gods with “eternal increase”.

 

[LaMar]

when I was in the bishopric

Religion:
Catholic

WOW!

I think you just became my own personal hero. Not much more I can say. LOL!

 

[majick275]

Religion:
Catholic

WOW!

I think you just became my own personal hero. Not much more I can say. LOL!

well it sure bothers my parents. My dad is a bishop right now and the bishop I was a counselor to is in the stake presidency there. everyone is positive that I (or my wife) MUST have been deeply offended by someone/something since I HAD to have known that it’s true.

 

[LaMar]

well it sure bothers my parents. My dad is a bishop right now and the bishop I was a counselor to is in the stake presidency there. everyone is positive that I (or my wife) MUST have been deeply offended by someone/something since I HAD to have known that it’s true.

Well Bishop, you continue to impress me.

They tried to make me the ward clerk when I was all of 25 years old. I politely declined, as I knew very well where that ladder led. A couple of years ago they tried to give me a stake calling, and I declined that too.

If I had any doubts about the inspired nature of callings before, these little episodes have cemented them. Either that or the church is in even more trouble than I can imagine.

Have you ever written about your experience leaving the church? If not, I recommend it. I’d really be interested in all the gory and salacious details. LOL!

 

[majick275]

LOL well just a counselor not a bishop. the details not so gory or salacious. a lot of study and prayer after being all but forced to see that something was rotten in the state of denmark. you can run in parallel for awhile but only when you admit it ISN’T true can you really commit to what IS.

 

[LaMar]

LOL well just a counselor not a bishop. the details not so gory or salacious. a lot of study and prayer after being all but forced to see that something was rotten in the state of denmark. you can run in parallel for awhile but only when you admit it ISN’T true can you really commit to what IS.

That’s a fair position. I’d like to make a little suggestion though…

I think it’s important for people like you to write about your experiences. There’s a tendency (and I’m sure you’ll agree) for Mormons to see leaving as a matter of laziness, evil, “being offended” (as you pointed out earlier) or some other matter. I think you and Paul DuPre seem to be good examples of people who left on principle, rather than because of hurt feelings or a desire to spend the rest of your lives in a drunken stupor.

I’ve never been familiar with a counselor in a bishopric who has left, though I have been acquainted with a few who have wandered away. The common theme seemed to be studying and coming to the conclusion that it’s a lot of baloney, or in one case the person simply didn’t feel the spiritual witness we’re all promised. In these cases, while I might differ with some of the conclusions, I can accept the fact that leaving can be an act of great integrity.

Just my own opinion. I went over to the fair board (MADB) yesterday. Those nitwits bother me far more than you, by a long mile.