Mormons

[BartBurk]

I’m surprised that you have never heard of it , just like someone said they never heard of the re-churching of women after child birth ,

the fee is usually what is paid to the priest for his work on the day and is expected , also its the same when someone gets married and the amounts are on the increase. This is not made up and is regular practice in the catholic church in Ireland , but im sure it not only goes on here , and well if it does that opens up awhole other debate as to why.

and I nearly forgot the fee charged for funeral mass which I had the unfortunate experience of having to pay for in september 2006

it seems like the catholic charge you to get in and then charge you to get out . covered both ways isnt life great.

All I can say is I never was charged to be baptized.

 

[thomasf]

All I can say is I never was charged to be baptized.

I’ve never known anyone to have to pay for a baptism, or any other sacrament.

 

[ApostateRLDS]

I wasn’t ‘charged’ one either when I was baptized. We did offer a donation each time we had one of our children baptized. But the donation is nominal, and to me it appears that it is offered more as a tradition than as a source of revenue for the Church. If our Parish was so hard-up that it needed these baptism ‘fees’ as a source of income, it would be in a lot of trouble.

John

Catholic and Southern by the Grace of God.

 

[exiled]

I’m not the most well spoken, but there is a difference between a fee and a stipend. In the CC, a stiped is to cover the costs for our beloved church. There is no withholding of the sacraments if one is unable to pay. Our priests do not have day jobs. They have dedicated their lives to be at our beck and call for last rites, births, deaths and so forth. And* if it was *a few dollars for their pockets, I would be more than happy to give such a small, earthly gift to them for the infinite value of the gifts they bring to us each day.
You’ve said in another post (or maybe it was the LDS site) that all your clergy are volunteers. Well, that’s great, but I wonder how many of them volunteer 24/7, without another source of income.
And, Montague, why would you pay for a funeral Mass in an apostate church? Why not just baptize the dead and LDS?

 

[thomasf]

I hear a lot about how priests get paid in the catholic church, especially from mormons. I wonder if mormons ever see how priests live? Our priest lives in a small apartment style suite in the basement of the church that doubles as a rectory. The church provides this for him, along with a vehicle for church use. He owns very little, most of what he has is provided by the church. The church feeds and clothes him. He’s got a small tv and a clock radio in his room. He owns basically nothing. (I know this because he is moving to a new parish soon and I offered to help move him. He said move what? All I have is some books and a suticase full of clothes)

People will often offer to give donations to priests when having a mass said, but even that is a small gift. If this is what mormons mean by ‘paying’ priests, it is a very small wage for someone who works 24/7 and has spent years learning and understanding God’s church.

Compare this to the ‘priesthood’ of mormons, people who have full time jobs and live in nice homes with their families, bishops and assorted paid church officials. Once again, this wild claims mormons make about catholics are nothing more than self projections of their own church.

 

[Allweather]

It probably gets down to definitions. How we define “Christian” or “baptism” or “Trinity” or “apostasy” and lots of other words that have different meanings to different people.

In the technical sense, Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Lord knows what other sects out there, are not Christians, and for a whole lot of reasons, all of which can be described in detail. But in the larger, common sense of the name Christian, they are, because they follow many of the teachings of Jesus. And each person has a unique story to tell. My fiance was baptized and confirmed Catholic, but she was drawn by family influences into the Mormon church at a young age, she thinking that Mormonism was identical to Catholicism, only with a better family program. She went on like that for over 20 years, never really understanding the details of Mormon theologies. Once she was shown the details, she withdrew. I told her that all those 20 some years, she was still a Catholic in mind and spirit, because she still believed in it, but had been Mormon in name only. She has said that, if she’d known about Kolob and Joseph Smith’s polygamy in the early stages of her conversion, she never would have joined up.

 

[Allweather]

*As for Philip, an angel of the Lord said to him, “Go south down the desert road that runs from Jerusalem to Gaza.” So he did, and he met the treasurer of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under the queen of Ethiopia. The eunuch had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and he was now returning. Seated in his carriage, he was reading aloud from the book of the prophet Isaiah. The Holy Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and walk along beside the carriage.” Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the prophet Isaiah; so he asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” The man replied, “How can I, when there is no one to instruct me?” And he begged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him. The passage of Scripture he had been reading was this: *
**
"He was led as a sheep to the slaughter. And as a lamb is silent before the shearers, he did not open his mouth. He was humiliated and received no justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth."

The eunuch asked Philip, “Was Isaiah talking about himself or someone else?” So Philip began with this same Scripture and then used many others to tell him the Good News about Jesus. As they rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look! There’s some water! Why can’t I be baptized?” He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away. The eunuch never saw him again but went on his way rejoicing.

(Acts 8:27-39 NLT)

That was precisely the NT reading from the lectionary in today’s Mass.

 

[Allweather]

This is not made up and is regular practice in the catholic church in Ireland , but im sure it not only goes on here , and well if it does that opens up awhole other debate as to why.

It varies greatly from country to country, and even from diocese to diocese. There’s no need to expect that things not doctrinal in nature should be uniform in all places at all times.

and I nearly forgot the fee charged for funeral mass which I had the unfortunate experience of having to pay for in september 2006

it seems like the catholic charge you to get in and then charge you to get out . covered both ways isnt life great.

I’m getting an impression of our new friend Montague that he is an embittered former Catholic. I’ve run across several Mormons locally who are very bitter against the Catholic Church, for all kinds of reasons, some of which Montague has repeated since his arrival… such as the sex scandals, and now he is complaining about priests receiving small amounts of money for doing what we need them to do. I wonder which came first for Montague: The embitterment against the Catholic Church? Or a conviction that the Mormon church has the true prophetic message God wants us to hear.

 

[ApostateRLDS]

Actually Exile, I thought your post was a well thought-out reply to Montague. The point I was trying to make to our LDS friend was that as little as the Priests receive as stipends for baptism, it’s ludicrous to claim that money is the motive for re-baptizing
ex-mo’s.

John

 

[majick275]

I’m surprised that you have never heard of it , just like someone said they never heard of the re-churching of women after child birth ,

the fee is usually what is paid to the priest for his work on the day and is expected , also its the same when someone gets married and the amounts are on the increase. This is not made up and is regular practice in the catholic church in Ireland , but im sure it not only goes on here , and well if it does that opens up awhole other debate as to why.

and I nearly forgot the fee charged for funeral mass which I had the unfortunate experience of having to pay for in september 2006

it seems like the catholic charge you to get in and then charge you to get out . covered both ways isnt life great.

I never paid a fee for my baptism nor my wifes nor my kids. I have seen many people baptized in two different dioceses none of whom was charged a fee. I’ve been involved with catholic funerals done by both priests AND deacons. 5 total. only one incurred a charge and that was for rental of the parish hall for a dinner. I have seen stipends for funeral masses. they are 5$. the money is given to the poor. Our bishop is from Ireland and so are both of our parish priests. then have never spoken of these charges you mention. They do charge to rent the parish hall for wedding receptions or quinceaneras. They never charged me anything for my marriage or sacraments.

I know when I was LDS I was expected to constantly pay a full 10% of my income and a generous fast offering every month regardless of whether i used any church facilities or services.

Maybe it’s an old legacy method of providing needed financial support like back when the LDS patriarchs used to charge for giving blessings.

 

[Erich]

I hope you don’t mind me butting in here but I always thought a Christian was someone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth, who was rejected by the Jews, crucified by Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead, was the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures!

On the other hand Mormons are obviously not Catholic Christians because they do not believe in the conclusions that came out of the Council of Nicea etc. etc. But they are Christians none the less!

Satan, too, believes that Jesus of Nazareth, who was rejected by the Jews, crucified by Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead, was the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures… so I guess that obviously qualifies him as Christian ?

Clearly, there is more to being Christian than just believing in Christ’s divinity (a criterion which of course excludes Jehovah’s Witnesses from being counted as Christians); as someone else indicated, the Nicene Creed provides a pretty good starting point!

Mormons hold to some pretty distinctive beliefs which are beyond what Mark Shea calls “rock-bottom, non-negotiable, grade A, can’t-do-without-'em beliefs” of Christianity (see mark-shea.com/6.html). To begin with, all Christians believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle; Mormonism explicitly denies this. Also, there are still some Latter Day Saint denominations which practice plural marriage even though the official church abandoned the practice in 1890.

Here are some links which go into greater detail:
Distinctive Beliefs of the Mormon Church
The Gods of the Mormon Church
Mormon Stumpers
Mormonism’s Baptism for the Dead

 

[BartBurk]

Satan, too, believes that Jesus of Nazareth, who was rejected by the Jews, crucified by Pontius Pilate, and was raised from the dead, was the promised Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures… so I guess that obviously qualifies him as Christian ?

Clearly, there is more to being Christian than just believing in Christ’s divinity (a criterion which of course excludes Jehovah’s Witnesses from being counted as Christians); as someone else indicated, the Nicene Creed provides a pretty good starting point!

Mormons hold to some pretty distinctive beliefs which are beyond what Mark Shea calls “rock-bottom, non-negotiable, grade A, can’t-do-without-'em beliefs” of Christianity (see mark-shea.com/6.html). To begin with, all Christians believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle; Mormonism explicitly denies this. Also, there are still some Latter Day Saint denominations which practice plural marriage even though the official church abandoned the practice in 1890.

Here are some links which go into greater detail:
Distinctive Beliefs of the Mormon Church
The Gods of the Mormon Church
Mormon Stumpers
Mormonism’s Baptism for the Dead

The difference between Satan and Mormons is pretty easy to describe. Mormons actually try to repent and believe that Christ actually paid the price for their personal sins. Satan rejects that.

 

[cor]

I’ve never known anyone to have to pay for a baptism, or any other sacrament.

I’m not sure about baptism, but it is common or customary to give some monetary compensation to the priest who officiates at a Catholic marriage. Those who are too poor to pay are not expected to do so.

You also pay for Mass stipends – where the priest says a Mass for the intention you want.

 

[Erich]

The difference between Satan and Mormons is pretty easy to describe. Mormons actually try to repent and believe that Christ actually paid the price for their personal sins. Satan rejects that.

I used a smiley 'cause I didn’t see a tongue-in-cheek smiley.

But, the fact remains that Mormonism teaches some pretty distinctive beliefs which are decidedly non-Christian, most notably:

• continuing public revelation,
• a plurality of heavens,
• a plurality of gods,
• eternal progression,
• Jesus was conceived by the Father and not by the Holy Spirit,
• the Holy Spirit has a “spiritual body”,
• ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’

To call Mormons Christians implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity – what C. S. Lewis termed “mere Christianity.” The fact is, they don’t.

 

[cor]

*]continuing public revelation,

I don’t think that contradicts Catholic dogma. It is the teaching of theologians that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle (probably St John) and this may be Church doctrine, but it’s not a dogma AFAIK. In any event, it’s not part of the core of Christian faith.

*]a plurality of heavens,

Are you referring to the three heavens (celestial etc.)? Many Catholics are unfortunately unaware of this but it is Catholic dogma that there will be different levels or degrees of glory in heaven. This was defined in the Council of Florence.

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits.

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM

So there are different degrees of the beatific vision in heaven according to Catholic dogma per above.

*]a plurality of gods,

If by “god” you mean a being with divine glory, Catholicism teaches that all those in the state of grace are infused with “divine life.” Also read this paragraph from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/460.htm

This glorification that awaits us is called in Eastern Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) theology “theosis” or “deification” or “divinization.” In the East they say we will share in God’s “energies” but not in his “essence” (I don’t know what divine energies is, maybe one of our Eastern brethren know)

The Mormon doctrine of exaltation is of course a little different. But I don’t think it’s that far off.

What is dramatically different though between Mormonism and Catholicism is that in Mormonism there is a hiearchy of gods where their god is not the ultimate god of the cosmos. But Mormons concern themselves only with the God that brought them forth as spirit-children. This kind of belief can be characterized as henotheism which is distinct from or at least a subspecies of polytheism.

In Catholicism of course the God we worship is held to be ontologically the ultimate reality, not some kind of local God that we happen to worship.

*]eternal progression,

See above. Eternal progression does contradict the teaching of Catholic theologians regarding the possibility of merit ending at death. But that isn’t a dogma (infallible teaching).

*]Jesus was conceived by the Father and not by the Holy Spirit,

In Catholicism it is IIRC dogma that all actions of the Trinity “ad extra” (that means outside of the Trinity or inner Trinitarian life) are performed by all three divine persons. So the humanity of Jesus was according to Catholic teaching created by the action of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I wasn’t aware of any Mormon teaching regarding Jesus not being conceived by the Holy Spirit.

*]the Holy Spirit has a “spiritual body”,

Do you have any reference for this? I was under the impression that that they believed he did not have a body yet.

*]‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’

As I said they worship a local God and they don’t have doctrines about this God like divine immutability. As for becoming God see what I quoted from the Catechism above.

To call Mormons Christians implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity – what C. S. Lewis termed “mere Christianity.” The fact is, they don’t.

They believe their God is a loving God as we do. That alone makes their religion near to the Christian one. Fr Raniero Cantalemessa, preacher to the papal household – at least he was under JPII, I believe he still is – once said in a homily that if all the copies of holy scripture had been destroyed and there was but one left and it too had been all but destroyed in a fire with just one sentence from the 1st epistle of John remaining “God is love” that the whole Gospels, the whole scripture, would still have remained intact (I am heavily paraphrasing what he said, but it was something to this effect)

 

[montague]

And, Montague, why would you pay for a funeral Mass in an apostate church? Why not just baptize the dead and LDS?

sorry prehaps funeral mass is the wrong name for it and I dont wish to get things wrong, what I meant was when a person dies and the priest says a mass with the family and then they go to the grave yard to bury the person.

I wasn’t ‘charged’ one either when I was baptized. We did offer a donation

Donation , fee the same thing ie giving of money to the priest for him fullfilling his duties, which is expected of all people as a matter of fact people will be told in advance how much the priest charges for a wedding in the pre marriage classes taught by a priest who is not married.

'm getting an impression of our new friend Montague that he is an embittered former Catholic.

former catholic yes embittered is a no im afraid I know you would like to think that so it would fit your perception of me, but it is not the case.

Its also worth bearing in mind that I was one through birth not choice , I love catholics I think they are great after all I have family that are catholics. so I hold no grudges against them in any way what soever

 

[Allweather]

former catholic yes embittered is a no im afraid I know you would like to think that so it would fit your perception of me, but it is not the case.

My perception of you is based on the things you’ve written here. I know nothing else about you except that which you’ve revealed by your own hand. Therefore, I could have no preconceptions that predate your arrival here approximately a week ago. You come across as a person angry at the Catholic Church.

Its also worth bearing in mind that I was one through birth not choice , I love catholics I think they are great after all I have family that are catholics. so I hold no grudges against them in any way what soever

I envy you in many ways. I was raised without any religion at all. I didn’t discover Jesus until I was age 27, and it took another 8 years before I finally found the Church that He established upon the Apostles. You had it from your birth. You had it all. And yet you threw it away. I can only wonder, why?

 

[deb216]

Donation , fee the same thing ie giving of money to the priest for him fullfilling his duties, which is expected of all people as a matter of fact people will be told in advance how much the priest charges for a wedding in the pre marriage classes taught by a priest who is not married.

No, my friend. It is not the same thing. When my husband and I were married, we could not afford the donation. The Priest married us anyways. It was not held against us. We weren’t made to feel like deadbeats. Our wedding was never treated like a financial transaction.

I’ve never known anyone denied the services of a priest because they could not pay, or could not pay enough. Your perception is wrong.

 

[thomasf]

And as I understand it, most donations are required to be small anyways. A priest would have to pull double duty to make the kind of money they are accused of at $5 to $10 a pop.

 

[montague]

I envy you in many ways. I was raised without any religion at all. I didn’t discover Jesus until I was age 27, and it took another 8 years before I finally found the Church that He established upon the Apostles. You had it from your birth. You had it all. And yet you threw it away. I can only wonder, why?

well it is good to have Christ in your life there is no doubting that, I was raised a catholic and I have always known of the existance of God, but then again so have you so im nothing special in that.

Its then when I got older and realised that the Jesus and God I worshipped where not the God’s of the catholic religion I started to question it

even as a child I had an image in my mind what they looked like and it came a shock to me when I found out that the catholic God or the idea of the trinity is not even taught in the bible .

So I guess it was then like nearly all catholics i moved away from the faith only went to mass on easter, and at christmas and I can honestly say I never felt the Spirit as a catholic to me it was a dead place with dead priests and a dead doctrine made by men whom knew no better.

you say the church built on Apostles. where are your apostles know? are they no longer needed? .

Indeed I had it from birth as do all people whom are born what I had is the light of Christ in me which lead me to his real Church like that of old bulit upon Apostles and Prophets where the Spirit lives where God himself lives, a growing living church with a living growing doctrine as we learn step by step.

Trow it all away YOU SAY… no my friend far from it I have found it, its a jewel in a world full of glass , a light on top of a mountain, a place of rest in a storm

you wonder why… if you felt what i feel the wonder would be taken away and you would come to know the marvellous work and wonder that is the gospel of Jesus Christ.