Mortal and Venial Sin

[HickmanJosh]

So what constitutes a venial sin?

I had been taught that sin is sin, and God hates sin. Plain and simple.

a venial sin is sin that is willed (an accident can’t be a sin) but either lacks grave matter(murder, etc) or full knowledge

if im wrong feel free to correct

 

[dje101]

a venial sin is sin that is willed (an accident can’t be a sin) but either lacks grave matter(murder, etc) or full knowledge

if im wrong feel free to correct

But if it is willed, then that means that you willfully committed a sin against God, and had full knowledge. So that seems fulfill two of the three requirements for Mortal sin.

So what is described as grave matter?

 

[InternetWoman]

Can’t I just ask God to forgive me for my sins?

This is what we do in confession. We use the method that Jesus gave to his Apostles to ask Him to forgive us.

And why to a priest? Think of it this way - no one Baptizes themselves do they? They need help. So why not the same thing with getting our sins forgiven?

I personally think Jesus gave us this wonderful gift because he knew that it can be very important for a person to actually hear those words “I absolve you of your sins.” If we are all alone with our prayers we can think/hope/pray that God has forgiven us, but with confession we KNOW it is true - because his representative here on earth has told us.

I always walk out of confession feeling like I’m walking on air - 10,000 (or more) pounds lighter!

 

[InternetWoman]

So what is described as grave matter?

The “big 10” certainly qualify, but there are other factors.

It’s a venial sin if I drop something on my toe and in a rush of pain say something I shouldn’t. It is entirely different if I hate someone and curse them (ask God to damn them to hell). Similar sins - but you can see that one is minor and the other major.

The safest thing to do, if you aren’t sure about something, is to bring it to confession. Priests are very good at helping clarify mortal vs. venial. After a few iterations you begin to develop a feel for the difference.

 

[shocktrooper]

This is what we do in confession. We use the method that Jesus gave to his Apostles to ask Him to forgive us.

And why to a priest? Think of it this way - no one Baptizes themselves do they? They need help. So why not the same thing with getting our sins forgiven?

I personally think Jesus gave us this wonderful gift because he knew that it can be very important for a person to actually hear those words “I absolve you of your sins.” If we are all alone with our prayers we can think/hope/pray that God has forgiven us, but with confession we KNOW it is true - because his representative here on earth has told us.

I always walk out of confession feeling like I’m walking on air - 10,000 (or more) pounds lighter!

Very good answer. We are humans and need to hear certain things, like “I love you” from our spouse or children. In confession, Jesus Christ speaks to us using the lips of the priest. The words are truly from Christ.

Pax Christi.

 

[JRKH]

So what constitutes a venial sin?

I had been taught that sin is sin, and God hates sin. Plain and simple.

You are quite right - sin is sin and God hates sin…

While the Church has Mortal and venial this way…(From the CCC, HERE)
1855 *Mortal sin *destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Now - in answer to your followup questions about “full knowledge, full consent and grave matter”…
I would explain it this way. Suppose a person converts at 30 years old. He has lived a fairly “normal” secular life with it’s normal sins and bad habits. The big ones like fornication, pornography, drunkeness he drops pretty readily. But some others, like cussing, foul language, glancing at a woman’s cleavage… are habits that takes him awhile to overcome. In general they are things that he knows are wrong and he tries not to do them but an occasional “d@mn” or f%#* slips out and he hasn’t quite trained his eyes yet to avoid looking at the female anatomy…
His intent is to NOT sin…He recognizes the sin immediately…He repents on the spot…
These are not sins of rejection or defiance but sins of habit that have not been subdued. So such sins would be venial and not mortal.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[EricFilmer]

In John 20:19-23:
On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus cam and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”. After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgie anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.(NIV)

It says that the disciples were together, not the 12. So how come only the priests can do confessions?

Having skimmed through this thread, I didn’t see where this particular question was addressed at length so I will go ahead and elaborate upon it.

Unlike in the synoptic gospels, John never uses the word “apostle” or “apostles”. He utilizes the word “disciples” for all followers of Jesus, apostles and non-apostles alike. The context provides clues for the reader, and, as you noted above, John also uses the term “the twelve” (which is a dead give-away).

Going back to the Bible passage you quoted, if we continue reading in John we are told:
“Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.” (John 20:24, RSV).

Because of this line, the implication is that these disciples were the Apostles, because Thomas’ absence was specifically noted. In other words, the gist of the passage is: “Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them (i.e., the other remaining members of the twelve) when Jesus came.”

I realize that this passage is open to a variety of different possible interpretations strictly from an exegetical viewpoint. But it is worth noting that the Catholic understanding of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is not limited to this text from the Gospel of John. In other words, we believe that priests and bishops are ministers of the Sacrament of Reconciliation for a variety of reasons based upon both Scripture and Tradition.

I also think that I am safe in saying that the traditional Christian understanding (i.e. not just Catholic & Orthodox) of this section of the Gospel of John is that these words were spoken by Jesus specifically to the Apostles (minus Thomas and, of course, Judas). For example, this is how it was depicted in the Gospel of John movie, which was not a Catholic production.

 

[JRKH]

Hey DavidFilmer, thanks for your reply with the general requirements for Mortal Sin.

In John 20:19-23:

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus cam and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”. After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

 

[JRKH]

Hey DavidFilmer, thanks for your reply with the general requirements for Mortal Sin.

In John 20:19-23:

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus cam and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”. After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

Eric gave a good answer above…But I’d like to add my bit.

1. Even if we assume that there were others in the room than just the 10 (minus Judas and Thomas), surely not ALL of the disciples of Christ were in that one place, having scattered after the Arrest and Passion.
2. Christ came, breathed on those present (regardless of actual number) and commisioned them.
3. At Pentacost, those commissioned and present at the coming of the Holy Spirit, went forth and proclaimed the Gospel. They added 3000 souls to their number that day…Did they breath on each one and commission each one just as Christ did?

I’m sure you’ll agree that they did not. In Acts we find that those added to the number, “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”. So - those added (of which we are a part) did not automatically attain the same commission as priests.
The Apostles had received much speacial training from Christ. Those added to the number needed additional training as well, and of those, only certain ones would be found to have the call to the priesthood.

Now all of the above does not mean we are not called to forgive the sins of others. It only means we do not have the special gift and faculty of act “in persona Christi”.

Peace
James

 

[dje101]

You are quite right - sin is sin and God hates sin…

While the Church has Mortal and venial this way…(From the CCC, HERE)
1855 *Mortal sin *destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Now - in answer to your followup questions about “full knowledge, full consent and grave matter”…
I would explain it this way. Suppose a person converts at 30 years old. He has lived a fairly “normal” secular life with it’s normal sins and bad habits. The big ones like fornication, pornography, drunkeness he drops pretty readily. But some others, like cussing, foul language, glancing at a woman’s cleavage… are habits that takes him awhile to overcome. In general they are things that he knows are wrong and he tries not to do them but an occasional “d@mn” or f%#* slips out and he hasn’t quite trained his eyes yet to avoid looking at the female anatomy…
His intent is to NOT sin…He recognizes the sin immediately…He repents on the spot…
These are not sins of rejection or defiance but sins of habit that have not been subdued. So such sins would be venial and not mortal.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

So the, if a man did those bad habits not out of habit,but because he liked to, such as like to look at cleavage, cuss, etc., would those then be a mortal sin because he KNOWS what he is not supposed to do but is doing them anyways, and willfully.

 

[JRKH]

So the, if a man did those bad habits not out of habit,but because he liked to, such as like to look at cleavage, cuss, etc., would those then be a mortal sin because he KNOWS what he is not supposed to do but is doing them anyways, and willfully.

Others may disagree with me but I would say yes…If one chooses to do the things that he knows are are wrong then these sins become mortal even though some might claim that they do not meet a standard of “grave matter”.
The reason I say this is because the Knowledgable Choice aspect interjects the element of defiance - of rejection of God Lordship that is the true underlying mortality in a mortal sin.

Remember how Jesus said that every sin will be forgiven except for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit? I believe that this is what he meant…When one knows better and chooses to sin anyway…even in small ways…it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit…and thus mortal…

Peace
James

 

[dje101]

Others may disagree with me but I would say yes…If one chooses to do the things that he knows are are wrong then these sins become mortal even though some might claim that they do not meet a standard of “grave matter”.
The reason I say this is because the Knowledgable Choice aspect interjects the element of defiance - of rejection of God Lordship that is the true underlying mortality in a mortal sin.

Remember how Jesus said that every sin will be forgiven except for the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit? I believe that this is what he meant…When one knows better and chooses to sin anyway…even in small ways…it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit…and thus mortal…

Peace
James

So then could it be said that one only needs to fulfill 2 of the 3 requirements for mortal sin for a sin to be considered mortal? It seems to me that willful knowledge of the sin and the requirements of God supersedes the Church’s parameters regarding grave matter to consider something to be “mortal sin”.

 

[JRKH]

So then could it be said that one only needs to fulfill 2 of the 3 requirements for mortal sin for a sin to be considered mortal? It seems to me that willful knowledge of the sin and the requirements of God supersedes the Church’s parameters regarding grave matter to consider something to be “mortal sin”.

I don’t want to go too far afield here because basically what I am expressing is a private devotional understanding and not clearly expressed doctrinal teaching. So long as you understand this…I will proceed.

To me, Willful disobedience, which implies knowledge, adds the additional element of defiance to any sin and automatically increases the gravity of the act.
While I don’t know if we could say that it makes the direct sin, say stealing a pen, come up to the level of grave matter, but certainly one must consider the “indirect” sin against, and in direct defiance of, the Love of God.

I see so many threads here asking similar questions, trying to determine if something is a mortal sin. I find it troubling because I think that too much emphasis is put on the “legality” of the matter and not enough on the spirtual underpinnings- (Love)
Since coming back tot he Church, after 35 years away and some pretty big sins…, I’ve given this matter some serious thought.

You are asking the right questions - looking at the requirements, and seeing how each interacts with the others. this will help you immensely in growing in holiness.

Peace
James

 

[dje101]

I don’t want to go too far afield here because basically what I am expressing is a private devotional understanding and not clearly expressed doctrinal teaching. So long as you understand this…I will proceed.

To me, Willful disobedience, which implies knowledge, adds the additional element of defiance to any sin and automatically increases the gravity of the act.
While I don’t know if we could say that it makes the direct sin, say stealing a pen, come up to the level of grave matter, but certainly one must consider the “indirect” sin against, and in direct defiance of, the Love of God.

I see so many threads here asking similar questions, trying to determine if something is a mortal sin. I find it troubling because I think that too much emphasis is put on the “legality” of the matter and not enough on the spirtual underpinnings- (Love)
Since coming back tot he Church, after 35 years away and some pretty big sins…, I’ve given this matter some serious thought.

I really love how you pointed this out and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Basically, don’t put so much emphasis on the title of it and remember that you have still sinned against God and this is unacceptable.

You are asking the right questions - looking at the requirements, and seeing how each interacts with the others. this will help you immensely in growing in holiness.

Peace
James

My brother saw that and said “wow, thats nice. But you’ve still got a LONG way to go there, bro.”

lol. I thought it was funny.

 

[JRKH]

I really love how you pointed this out and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Basically, don’t put so much emphasis on the title of it and remember that you have still sinned against God and this is unacceptable.

Precisely…
I actually look at the whole thing of sin and sanctity with a bit more of an Eastern “wholistic” approach and less of a western “legal” perspective.
My basic approach is that we are trying to enter the “narrow gate” where many will try and fail. I liken it to the person who is trying to become the best person at archery…or the best pitcher. To do so requires great attention to detail, lots of practice and most important a singular focus on the Target and the Goal. Measuring how much I miss by is helpful only in so far as it helps me to improve.

My brother saw that and said “wow, thats nice. But you’ve still got a LONG way to go there, bro.”

Me too my friend, me too…

Peace
James

 

[Cat_Herder]

So then could it be said that one only needs to fulfill 2 of the 3 requirements for mortal sin for a sin to be considered mortal?

No, all 3 elements must be present for there to be a mortal sin. If one is missing the sin is venial or else not a sin at all.

 

[Debra_C]

Also, why can we NOT pray for them? Can’t we pray that God would speak to their heart and that they would seek forgiveness?

We can and SHOULD pray for them. The time when it does no good is when they have DIED in mortal sin without repenting and reconciling with God.

A person in a state of mortal sin has willfully separated himself from the Grace of God. He is no longer in communion with God, by his own free will. God will not attempt to circumvent his free will by compelling him to seek forgiveness in any way (no matter how much we might implore God to do so). The sinner must turn again to God, using the same gift of free will that he used to turn away from God.

We can attempt to influence the sinner to turn to God, but we cannot ask God to do this for us, because he will not do so. We can do LOTS of things that God cannot do.

While it is true that God will not FORCE His will on any of us, it is not true that He does not reach out to meet us when we are in mortal sin and darkness. If He did not, I can assure you, I’d still be nowhere near ANY church, much less posting here as an active Catholic for the last 6 years. And I take serious issue with the idea that I can do anything that the one who created the entire universe form nothing by saying the Word can’t. In fact, I would suggest that when God uses us to bring about a conversion of heart, we are merely acting as tools of His will. Only His Spirit can change a heart. It is a gift of grace to come to faith or to be convicted deep inside of your sin so that you are moved to reconcile with Him.

 

[Debra_C]

wait-- I’m sorry. I’ve been too hasty. I can do one thing that God can’t-- I can be imperfect and commit sin.

 

[DavidFilmer]

wait-- I’m sorry. I’ve been too hasty. I can do one thing that God can’t-- I can be imperfect and commit sin.

Don’t sell yourself short - you can do other things that God cannot do, even without bing sinful. For example, you can be wrong about something. God can’t do that. You can be unaware of something. God can’t do that. You can change your opinion. God can’t do that.

You can do LOTS of things that God cannot do, even without being sinful.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by DavidFilmer
A person in a state of mortal sin has willfully separated himself from the Grace of God. He is no longer in communion with God, by his own free will. God will not attempt to circumvent his free will by compelling him to seek forgiveness in any way (no matter how much we might implore God to do so). The sinner must turn again to God, using the same gift of free will that he used to turn away from God.

I too do not believe that God does not reach out to those in mortal sin. After all He sent His Son to die for a world drowning in mortal sin…
However, I also believe that God’s reaching out can have no effect until the sinner repents.
It’s like an addict who recognizes his addiction, knows that there are treatment centers, knows that there are people who love him and want to see him well, who would gladly come and get him and carry him to the hospital, would support him in every way possible - - If only he would call out for help…
Well God does provide treatment centers, there are people who love the sinner and gladly seek ways to help and stand ready…
If Only the sinner would call out for help…

Peace
James