Mortal and Venial Sin

[JD27076]

I know Mortal sin is the BIG sin. But is Mortal sin commited when you have FULL consent of the sin, even if its a small sin. Like, If I know stealing that pencil is a sin, and I have consent of its sinfulness. Would that be a Mortal sin or Venial because its just a pencil. And would a Venial sin be like, I see that pencil just sitting there, I wonder if it would be a sin, oh i dont know. And I take it, I dont have full consent. Is that a Venial Sin?

 

[Bookcat]

Mortal sin involves “grave matter”.

If the pencil was made of gold…or perhaps was some collectable pencil…etc…they it could particularly be grave matter…

But people usually do not consider their pencils that important

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

 

[truthseekerjay]

Mortal sin involves “grave matter”.

If the pencil was made of gold…or perhaps was some collectable pencil…etc…they it could particularly be grave matter…

But people usually do not consider their pencils that important

I personally think that stealing is stealing. It seems to me, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that you are judging the severity of a sin based on the worth/value or the severity of the consequences that humans (and not necessarily God) place on an object. The following may not be an accurate anology, but when you say that stealing a pencil that is made of wood is not as bad as stealing a pencil made of gold, isn’t that like saying that killing someone that no one cares about is not as bad as killing someone who is loved and popular? I’m sure people will be sad when anyone dies, but I would think more people would be hurt if it’s someone they cared about. Is it worse to kill someone popular just because that person’s death will cause more pain?

 

[Bookcat]

I personally think that stealing is stealing. It seems to me, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that you are judging the severity of a sin based on the worth/value that humans (and not necessarily God) place on an object. The following may not be an accurate anology, but when you say that stealing a pencil that is made of wood is not as bad as stealing a pencil made of gold, isn’t that like saying that killing someone that no one cares about is not as bad as killing someone who is loved and popular? I’m sure people will be sad when anyone dies, but I would think more people would be hurt if it’s someone they cared about. Is it worse to kill someone popular just because that person’s death will cause more pain?

Stealing is stealing. But some theft can be venial sin and other theft can be mortal sin.

Both are sins and both are bad.

But there is a wide wide chasm between a venial sin and a mortal sin.

As for the analogy…such would not fit for the murder of any human person is a grave matter.

The murder of any human being is of course a very very grave thing. No matter who is murdered.

(though one murder could be worse…for example if I murdered my wife …it would be worse due to her being my wife whom I am to love in a very particular way …or if I murdered by brother etc etc)

 

[truthseekerjay]

Stealing is stealing. But some theft can be venial sin and other theft can be mortal sin.

Both are sins and both are bad.

But there is a wide wide chasm between a venial sin and a mortal sin.

As for the analogy…such would not fit for the murder of any human person is a grave matter.

I got this website from another poster saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html. This website states that stealing is a grave matter (under CCC 2408) just like murder. I must admit that it does hint at different “levels” of stealing, but it does say that the act is more severe when it affects the victim more severely. I suppose a person can think that stealing a wooden pencil is not as bad as stealing a golden pencil, but what if the wooden pencil was a gift from the victim’s dying parent? Would God still see this as a venial sin because the thief didn’t know how valuable the pencil was to the victim?

 

[Bookcat]

I got this website from another poster saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html. This website states that stealing is a grave matter (under CCC 2408) just like murder. I must admit that it does hint at different “levels” of stealing, but it does say that the act is more severe when it affects the victim more severely. I suppose a person can think that stealing a wooden pencil is not as bad as stealing a golden pencil, but what if the wooden pencil was a gift from the victim’s dying parent? Would God still see this as a venial sin because the thief didn’t know how valuable the pencil was to the victim?

Yes theft can said to be grave matter. But it “admits” to parvity of matter…that is to smallness of matter.

Yes off course circumstances can make even the theft of a wooden pencil to be worse! But if I do not know it was gift from their parents…and then I will not be culpable for such. For I only thought it was some little silly pencil. Now if I know that info --well then I am not only going to commit a more serious sin…but I am also a real jerk :dts: Man that would be very cruel.

 

[truthseekerjay]

Yes theft can said to be grave matter. But it “admits” to parvity of matter…that is to smallness of matter.

Yes off course circumstances can make even the theft of a wooden pencil to be worse! But if I do not know it was gift from their parents…and then I will not be culpable for such. For I only thought it was some little silly pencil. Now if I know that info --well then I am not only going to commit a more serious sin…but I am also a real jerk :dts: Man that would be very cruel.

You seem pretty confident that God wouldn’t punish you as severely because of the lack of full knowledge.

Here’s my scenario: I’m a former Catholic and now, I just consider myself Christian with mainline Protestant beliefs. Out of faith and love (and not out of obligation), I attend service weekly, read the Bible daily for guidance and comfort, go to a Bible study group in which we hold each other accountable to fix our shortcomings (like lust, pride, listening to gossip, etc.), and serve my community. I continue to read material on Catholicism as well as other faiths to see if they actually make sense. Most of my family and friends are still Catholic and from a worldly point of view, it would probably be easier if I just returned to Catholicism and TRUST ME, I have tried to justify Catholicism to myself and tried to come back. My conscience keeps telling me that it’s only faith in Jesus and not faith in any sort of rules or rituals that leads to salvation and this is what I honestly believe.

If Catholic theology is correct, would I be guilty of failing to follow Catholic rules and traditions? It seems like you’re saying that God wouldn’t punish you for something you didn’t have full knowledge/understanding about. Do I get the same benefits or do I have to be a member of the Catholic club to get them?

If I have to be in the Catholic club, what does that mean exactly? I think it was you who said in another thread that if you honestly didn’t know that missing mass was a mortal sin, then missing mass would count as a venial sin for you. Would you still be in the Catholic club if you’re missing mass?

 

[truthseekerjay]

Just to clarify my last question, at what point would God consider you not a member of the Catholic club? As far as I’m concerned (and I’m saying this with as much humility as I can), I continue to do things that a lot of Catholics should be doing. I think you implied that God would still keep you in the club if you missed mass not knowing that it’s a mortal sin not to attend. Would He still keep you in the club if you didn’t receive communion because you don’t understand it’s full meaning? if you fail to follow the 10 commandments?

If anyone is bothered that these questions are exceeding the scope of the topic of this thread, please let me know, so that I can start a new thread.

 

[Bookcat]

You seem pretty confident that God wouldn’t punish you as severely because of the lack of full knowledge.

Here’s my scenario: I’m a former Catholic and now, I just consider myself Christian with mainline Protestant beliefs. Out of faith and love (and not out of obligation), I attend service weekly, read the Bible daily for guidance and comfort, go to a Bible study group in which we hold each other accountable to fix our shortcomings (like lust, pride, listening to gossip, etc.), and serve my community. I continue to read material on Catholicism as well as other faiths to see if they actually make sense. Most of my family and friends are still Catholic and from a worldly point of view, it would probably be easier if I just returned to Catholicism and TRUST ME, I have tried to justify Catholicism to myself and tried to come back. My conscience keeps telling me that it’s only faith in Jesus and not faith in any sort of rules or rituals that leads to salvation and this is what I honestly believe.

If Catholic theology is correct, would I be guilty of failing to follow Catholic rules and traditions? It seems like you’re saying that God wouldn’t punish you for something you didn’t have full knowledge/understanding about. Do I get the same benefits or do I have to be a member of the Catholic club to get them?

If I have to be in the Catholic club, what does that mean exactly? I think it was you who said in another thread that if you honestly didn’t know that missing mass was a mortal sin, then missing mass would count as a venial sin for you. Would you still be in the Catholic club if you’re missing mass?

I can see from your questions that you have various misunderstandings or misconceptions of the Catholic Faith.

First off it is not a “club”. Jesus did not found a club…he founded a Church. Secondly…perhaps due to your misunderstanding in terms of it being a "club, the Catholic Faith is not about “rules”. Yes if it were a club…there would be “rules” to follow as a member of that club. And if it were a club there would yes be benefits that were for members. It is though not a club.

The Catholic Faith is not about “rules” it is about Jesus of Nazareth the Christ! The Logos…the Son of God.

It is about being his disciples and living the truth and life he gives us. It is about following him…living his teachings. It is about living and bringing the glad tidings of true life in him who was Crucified and is Risen from the dead. It is about joy of being in him.It is about worship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is about following the Logos…the Word of God…and reading and living his inspired Word. It is about celebrating his Sacraments…especially the Eucharist. It is about “walking in love”…living according to the Commandments…living the virtues. It is about living in communion and serving the poorest of the poor. etc etc. etc.

Following Jesus of Nazareth the Christ!

Now as to your other question. Where are you in all this? Well it seems that you were Baptized into the Catholic Church…perhaps even confirmed. You are thus a Catholic currently living as a Protestant. As to how God will judge what you know or do not know…etc well that is for God not for me. I have no window into your soul.

And as noted it seems you have a number of misconceptions in regards to the Catholic Church. So hopefully with time and study etc such will be cleared up.

And certainly I would propose to you to return to the full communion with the Catholic Church. (As a one who was outside and who was thus received so many years ago into full communion with the Catholic Church…). Within the Catholic Church one finds the fullness of what Jesus gave us…

A few readings for you this Lords Day (not to be skimmed):

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20090412_urbi-easter_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100407_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110821_xxvi-gmg-madrid_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110818_accoglienza-giovani2-madrid_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

I can see from your questions that you have various misunderstandings or misconceptions of the Catholic Faith.

First off it is not a “club”. Jesus did not found a club…he founded a Church. Secondly…perhaps due to your misunderstanding in terms of it being a "club, the Catholic Faith is not about “rules”. Yes if it were a club…there would be “rules” to follow as a member of that club. And if it were a club there would yes be benefits that were for members. It is though not a club.

The Catholic Faith is not about “rules” it is about Jesus of Nazareth the Christ! The Logos…the Son of God.

It is about being his disciples and living the truth and life he gives us. It is about following him…living his teachings. It is about living and bringing the glad tidings of true life in him who was Crucified and is Risen from the dead. It is about joy of being in him.It is about worship of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is about following the Logos…the Word of God…and reading and living his inspired Word. It is about celebrating his Sacraments…especially the Eucharist. It is about “walking in love”…living according to the Commandments…living the virtues. It is about living in communion and serving the poorest of the poor. etc etc. etc.

Following Jesus of Nazareth the Christ!

Now as to your other question. Where are you in all this? Well it seems that you were Baptized into the Catholic Church…perhaps even confirmed. You are thus a Catholic currently living as a Protestant. As to how God will judge what you know or do not know…etc well that is for God not for me. I have no window into your soul.

And as noted it seems you have a number of misconceptions in regards to the Catholic Church. So hopefully with time and study etc such will be cleared up.

And certainly I would propose to you to return to the full communion with the Catholic Church. (As a one who was outside and who was thus received so many years ago into full communion with the Catholic Church…). Within the Catholic Church one finds the fullness of what Jesus gave us…

A few readings for you this Lords Day (not to be skimmed):

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/urbi/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20090412_urbi-easter_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100407_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20110821_xxvi-gmg-madrid_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2011/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20110818_accoglienza-giovani2-madrid_en.html

Opps the 3rd link there did not work…here it is again:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

 

[truthseekerjay]

Now as to your other question. Where are you in all this? Well it seems that you were Baptized into the Catholic Church…perhaps even confirmed. You are thus a Catholic currently living as a Protestant. As to how God will judge what you know or do not know…etc well that is for God not for me. I have no window into your soul.

I’m sure I do have misconceptions, but let me just ask you this. You said it’s for God to judge, yet you yourself judged that if you stole a wooden pencil and didn’t know that it had sentimental value, that God would probably not punish you that severely. Assuming that you honestly feel that stealing a wooden pencil is a minor offense and that I honestly feel that it’s not necessary to receive communion, what do you think would happen to me using your line of logic? Of course it’s only God’s opinion that matters, but for the sake of debating, let me know how you would answer the question.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m sure I do have misconceptions, but let me just ask you this. You said it’s for God to judge, yet you yourself judged that if you stole a wooden pencil and didn’t know that it had sentimental value, that God would probably not punish you that severely. Assuming that you honestly feel that stealing a wooden pencil is a minor offense and that I honestly feel that it’s not necessary to receive communion, what do you think would happen to me using your line of logic? Of course it’s only God’s opinion that matters, but for the sake of debating, let me know how you would answer the question.

It is not about what I honestly feel so much as what I knew and judged etc.

Anyhow again as to your situation…I am not your judge. I have no window into your soul.

It is Jesus who gives himself …as real food…it is Jesus who founded his Church…and who desires us to remain in full communion with the Church. It is not some idea of mine.

When I was a boy I was not Catholic.

At a certain point in my life I came to realize that the Catholic Church is the Church that Jesus founded and that thus it was his will that I enter into full communion with the Catholic Church.

Had I rejected it …or if I now rejected it and refused to remain in his Church…well I would be gravely sinning…I would be rejecting his will …rejecting him.

I can say that about myself because well I have a reasonable knowledge of myself and I know what I have come to know…

I do not know you.

But certainly …I propose to you to seek further…to move in that direction…towards full communion (which does not mean here by the way that you “receive Holy Communion” --such is not the meaning of the word communion here…such would of course be in time part of your returning)

(PS: Of course my reason for entering was Jesus Christ…it was a “yes” to him… not simply to avoid sinning (though that too is part of the yes)…and it was the “to whom else can we go…you have the words of eternal life”…the encounter with him…which involved too the encounter with the Church)

 

[Ignatius]

I know Mortal sin is the BIG sin. But is Mortal sin commited when you have FULL consent of the sin, even if its a small sin. Like, If I know stealing that pencil is a sin, and I have consent of its sinfulness. Would that be a Mortal sin or Venial because its just a pencil. And would a Venial sin be like, I see that pencil just sitting there, I wonder if it would be a sin, oh i dont know. And I take it, I dont have full consent. Is that a Venial Sin?

The three things necessary for mortal sin are 1) Grave matter, 2) Full knowledge of the seriousness and 3) Full consent of the will. If any one or more of these three are absent, then the culpability of the individual is mitigated. Under normal circumstances, assuming nobody’s life or similar grave consequences depended on it, taking a pencil would not constitute grave matter.

So, it seems from your statement that you’ve got a good grasp on the concept, But let’s get things in proper perspective. The whole idea is to think about what we are doing before the fact so that we don’t offend God and thus avoid doing it. We want to be doing things that please God and that should be our focus.

God Bless you on your journey in to His Church.

 

[truthseekerjay]

It is not about what I honestly feel so much as what I knew and judged etc.

Anyhow again as to your situation…I am not your judge. I have no window into your soul.

I’m not trying to be repetitive here and I’m honestly trying to modify the way I ask my question so that you would be able to answer it. I really just want to understand this concept of “full knowledge” so please bear with me.

Please correct any of my misunderstandings, but you implied that if you stole a pencil without knowing that it had sentimental value for it’s owner, that God would probably not punish you as severely because of your lack of full knowledge. Hypothetically speaking, if someone had the SAME EXACT DEGREE of lack of knowledge (I know this was bad grammar) regarding the significance of receiving communion, would God be as lenient?

If the answer is no, why would God be lenient with you for not knowing any better and not as lenient with a person who had the SAME DEGREE of ignorance?

 

[Bookcat]

*Ignorance through not fault of ones own is just that. Ignorance through not fault of ones own.
*

Before I was a Catholic…when I was just a boy…I had no clue there was even a Church that Jesus founded… And it was ignorance through no fault of my own…

God did not expect me at that moment to become a Catholic

He certainly understood that I had no such knowledge and opportunity.

But when I began to realize the realities involved…later. Then I had a responsibility to cooperate with that grace…I was no longer in the same place.

 

[Bookcat]

Please correct any of my misunderstandings, but you implied that if you stole a pencil without knowing that it had sentimental value for it’s owner, that God would probably not punish you as severely because of your lack of full knowledge. Hypothetically speaking, if someone had the SAME EXACT DEGREE of lack of knowledge (I know this was bad grammar) regarding the significance of receiving communion, would God be as lenient?

*Ignorance through not fault of ones own is just that. Ignorance through not fault of ones own.
*

For example…

Before I was a Catholic…when I was just a boy…I had no clue there was even a Church that Jesus founded… And it was ignorance through no fault of my own…

God did not expect me at that moment to become a Catholic

He certainly understood that I had no such knowledge and opportunity.

But when I began to realize the realities involved…later. Then I had a responsibility (and the great joy!) to cooperate with that grace…I was no longer in the same place.

 

[Bookcat]

Interesting site for you.

catholicscomehome.org/

 

[Bookcat]

interesting site catholicscomehome.org/

 

[truthseekerjay]

*Ignorance through not fault of ones own is just that. Ignorance through not fault of ones own.
*

Just so that we’re clear, it sounds like you’re saying that God WOULD BE lenient with both the Catholic who stole a wooden pencil not knowing that it had sentimental value for its owner and for the Protestant who didn’t know the true significance of receiving communion (assuming both had the same degree of ignorance).

By the way, I have accepted Jesus and honestly, I have accepted Him more after I stopped following Catholic rules and rituals. When I was Catholic, all I could focus on was the rules because the Catholic Church emphasized the need to follow the rituals in order to be in a state of grace. Now, I can actually focus on my relationship with God and have Him change me to become a better person. Back then, I would have never thought that stealing $3 is a serious sin, but God has been changing me to think otherwise. Don’t get me wrong, I still fail at a lot of these “minor” sins. I can only do so much, so I try to fix the sins in my life that have more serious visible consequences for myself and others. However, I should expect to receive whatever consequences come from the “minor” sins and I pray that God will continue to change me so that stopping these “minor” sins will become more of a priority.