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Bookcat
Guest
God will judge …knowing them better then themselves.
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Bookcat
Guest
You would ordinarily have been right… $3 theft is wrong and sinful…but ordinarily not likely to be grave (unless say it was all the money they had to eat or something). Honestly God is not going to lead you to think that something that is not a serious sin is a serious sin. It would not be God who is leading you to think otherwise.
Perhaps what you mean is that you now later in life see the truth that all stealing is a sin…and we are to never steal. Never “make light of it”. That would be a good change.
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Bookcat
Guest
I am glad you desire to follow Jesus Christ and to have a relationship with him. Your understanding though of the Catholic Faith here is a misunderstanding. It is not about rules it is about following Jesus of Nazareth and remaining living in him, in the Church, walking in the Holy Spirit and in love.
Yes of course we must follow the commandments and sure there are disciplines to help us…if you love me keep my commandments. But the commandments are simply part of our YES! to him.
The Sacraments were given us by Jesus Christ. They are his idea not ours. Thanks be to Him for these wonderful realities. That I can not only pray to him and read his words but also receive him in the Holy Eucharist and receive his mercy and grace in the Sacrament of Reconciliation etc. They are very much an intimate part of my relationship with my Master and Lord.
I invite you to come to know the Catholic Faith better and to shed your misconceptions…
…come discover the beauty and the joy.
"From him we draw our life. Without him, we cannot truly live. “God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 Jn 5:11). Jesus himself tells us that he is our life (cf. Jn 14:6). Consequently, Christian faith is not only a matter of believing that certain things are true, but above all a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is an encounter with the Son of God that gives new energy to the whole of our existence. When we enter into a personal relationship with him, Christ reveals our true identity and, in friendship with him, our life grows towards complete fulfilment. "
–Pope Benedict XVI
"We too can have tangible contact with Jesus and put our hand, so to speak, upon the signs of his Passion, the signs of his love. It is in the sacraments that he draws particularly near to us and gives himself to us. Dear young people, learn to “see” and to “meet” Jesus in the Eucharist, where he is present and close to us, and even becomes food for our journey. In the sacrament of Penance the Lord reveals his mercy and always grants us his forgiveness. "
–Pope Benedict XVI
“Enter into a personal dialogue with Jesus Christ and cultivate it in faith. Get to know him better by reading the Gospels and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Converse with him in prayer, and place your trust in him. He will never betray that trust! “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 150). Thus you will acquire a mature and solid faith, one which will not be based simply on religious sentiment or on a vague memory of the catechism you studied as a child. You will come to know God and to live authentically in union with him, like the Apostle Thomas who showed his firm faith in Jesus in the words: “My Lord and my God!”.”
–Pope Benedict XVI
(all quotes) vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20100806_youth_en.html
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truthseekerjay
Guest
I agree! So how are you so confident that God wouldn’t think that stealing an inexpensive item is a serious sin?
It seems like you honestly think that stealing a $3 item is not that bad. Some HONESTLY think that stealing $10 is not bad, some $100, some $1000. At what price will God finally lead one to think that stealing the particular item is bordering on mortal sin? Is it person dependent?
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Bookcat
Guest
There is much that can go into making a judgment as to what kind of sin a particular act of theft is. But normally a person is not going to regard the theft of pencil as serious. And one is going to say regard someone taking $1000 for you as serious. There are basic themes here to explore in terms of moral theology…but this is not the place for a moral theology course. Theft of course should simply never be done.
I am more interested in the other posts I have posted above …
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nantiope
Guest
Truthseekerjay I just jumped into this thread and I would like to interject my two cents if you don’t mind. I don’t think anyone is saying stealing a pencil is not wrong. I think the first question being asked, lead us to believe it was a child who was walking by a desk and saw a pencil, unattended and just there. We know that it belonged to someone at some point but we take it not being sure of it’s origin or belonging to anyone. A pencil, as an object is pretty common, and pretty inexpensive. You are asking about something totally different. But hyopthetically, if there is someone out there who doesn’t know the significance of communion(in my mind I am thinking someone who lives beyond the reaches of Christ and perhaps has never explored the christian faith) then the answer is yes, God will be lenient, because they have never known the glory and love.
I am more curious about the rules of the Catholic church you keep talking about. Could you clarify for me what those rules would be? To be honest, you sort of sound like a child who was tired of mom and dad telling them to eat dinner and go to bed at bedtime, only to get out on their own and realize that “HEY I need to do this stuff, because it is good for me, it makes me feel good and it makes my life better” BUT mom and dad were just WRONG!
I am hoping for some clarification. And I am sorry if I am off putting I am just looking for some clarification in your statement.
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JD27076
Guest
This got me thinking. If Jesus can do anything, then he should be able to forgive sins, Venial and Mortal. So why do we have confession if Jesus can forgive us of all of our sins? Do Catholics believe you can get in a state of grace by going to Jesus?
If so, why need Confession?
Thanks!
If so, why need Confession?
Thanks!
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Bookcat
Guest
Confession is the ordinary way Jesus forgives our mortal sins and we are reconciled to the Church. It is the way he gave us…
Can he forgive them prior to our reaching confession? Yes via the grace of perfect contrition…with by the way the intent to go to confession…an we may not actually know we have this grace… (PS: one needs to wait for Holy Communion until after Confession by the way).
But thankfully Jesus willed to give us this great Sacrament where we can be absolved …where we can experience in a very wonderful way the love and mercy of Christ and our communion with the Church. And an increase in grace…with help to avoid sin in the future etc
This may be of some help: cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=199
Can he forgive them prior to our reaching confession? Yes via the grace of perfect contrition…with by the way the intent to go to confession…an we may not actually know we have this grace… (PS: one needs to wait for Holy Communion until after Confession by the way).
But thankfully Jesus willed to give us this great Sacrament where we can be absolved …where we can experience in a very wonderful way the love and mercy of Christ and our communion with the Church. And an increase in grace…with help to avoid sin in the future etc
This may be of some help: cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=199
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Bookcat
Guest
CCC
VI. The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.38
Only God forgives sin
1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41
1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43
Reconciliation with the Church
1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.44
1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46
1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
VI. The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation
1440 Sin is before all else an offense against God, a rupture of communion with him. At the same time it damages communion with the Church. For this reason conversion entails both God’s forgiveness and reconciliation with the Church, which are expressed and accomplished liturgically by the sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation.38
Only God forgives sin
1441 Only God forgives sins.39 Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven."40 Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.41
1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation."42 The apostle is sent out “on behalf of Christ” with “God making his appeal” through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."43
Reconciliation with the Church
1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.44
1444 In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."45 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head."46
1445 The words bind and loose mean: whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.
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tbcrawford
Guest
Jesus can do anything He wants to do.The question says ‘Can’ Jesus forgive…yes of course.Perhaps the question is WILL Jesus forgive? We are blessed that we have the ‘opportunity’ of reconciliation whereby we can truly ask for forgiveness directly to God through the priest in ‘persona Christi’ and seek forgiveness.
The sacrament of reconciliation is effective because the true minister is always Christ.
Bishops and priests are given the power to act in the person of Christ when they exercise their sanctifying teaching and guiding functions for the sake of the members of the Body of the Church.
Through the grace of the sacrament of Holy Orders Bishops and Priests are incorporated into the person of Christ,the Head of the Church,and are given the power to act in persona Christi…that is the person of Christ when they exercise their sanctifying teaching and guiding functions,for the sake of the members of the Body,the Church.Hence when they hear our confession they are in persona Christi…it is Christ you are confessing to.
The sacrament of reconciliation is effective because the true minister is always Christ.
Bishops and priests are given the power to act in the person of Christ when they exercise their sanctifying teaching and guiding functions for the sake of the members of the Body of the Church.
Through the grace of the sacrament of Holy Orders Bishops and Priests are incorporated into the person of Christ,the Head of the Church,and are given the power to act in persona Christi…that is the person of Christ when they exercise their sanctifying teaching and guiding functions,for the sake of the members of the Body,the Church.Hence when they hear our confession they are in persona Christi…it is Christ you are confessing to.
po18guy
Well-known member
Jesus gave power over sin to the Apostles, right? (Matthew 18:18, John 20:23). For what purpose did He do this, since they could not read minds? So that those who confessed their sins to the Apostles might be forgiven. Paul forgave sins in the Person of Christ (2 Corinthians 2:10). So does the Priest, who sits in persona Christi. When Jesus forgave sin, He told the sinners plainly (Matthew 9:2, Mark 2:5, Luke 5:20, 7:48). We are supposed to hear the words of absolution, so that our spirits may be at rest. As a Protestant, did you ever hear Jesus’ words of absolution? From anyone?
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Dorothy
Guest
You have already been given good answers, but I would just like to add that since the priest is a stand-in for Christ, (in persona Christi), it is awesome to hear the words of absolution coming from the priest’s mouth!
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FrDavid96
Guest
Yes, Christ certainly can forgive our sins–any of them.
The method by which Christ forgives us is the method that He Himself established: The Sacrament of Confession.
That’s why we need Confession, because that’s how Christ decided to give us His forgiveness. If Christ had given us a different way, then that would be the way we would use–but He didn’t.
When we say that we don’t need Confession, we are saying that we know better than Christ because we find another way, our way, as opposed to His way. Rejecting Confession is a way of saying “I’m right, God is wrong.”
And yes, I do know that you’re only asking the question. No harm in that at all.
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PJM
Guest
Catholics believe what everyone wishing to get to heaven MUST believe and practice
WHY? Becuse it is God’s specified way to accomplish what you ask.Before sharing the evidence of this I will point out that its truth is warranted by God Himself: Jn.14:16-17; Jn. 17:15-19, Mt. 16:18-19.
**Also using priest was not invented by Jesus or His RCC. **It is a practice found often in the OT. **Lev. 5:5 “When a man is guilty in any of these [sins] , he shall confess the sin he has committed,” Lev.19:22 **“And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering before the LORD for his sin which he has committed; and the sin which he has committed shall be forgiven him.” **Lev.4: 20,26, 31 **“Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven."
THIS IS WHY JESUS CONTINUES TO USE PRIEST
**Heb.5 Verses 1 to 6 ** “For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. Because of this he is bound to offer sacrifice for his own sins as well as for those of the people. And one does not take the honor upon himself, but he is called by God, just as Aaron was.”
AND THIS IS WHERE JESUS COMMANDS ALL TO FOLLOW HIS TEACHING
** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **
** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
NOTE: It REMAINS Jesus who does the actual forgiving. The role of the priest has many aspects including determiniong TRUR sorrow for sins and asking Jesus to FORGIVE if it is present.
In GREAT PART Confession is intended because it is or can be difficult to admit our gulit even in COMPLETE privacy; to discourage us from further sin.
**And YES Jesus DOES forgive Mortal sins. **Venial sins need not be in an absolute sense confessed at all as they are remitted by Mass and the general act of forgivreness. BUT this is ONLY for venial sins; NOT Mortal sins which MUST be confessed.
God Bless you,
Pat
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
It sounds like you are trying to avoid confessing something embarassing. There is no need to feel embarassment in Confession. Just make sure you did a thorough examination of conscience and that you are sorry for what you did. The priest in the confessional in all probability has heard it all, and in all likelihood, unless your confession is face to face does not know personally who you are, nor does he really care. All he cares about is to offer you some sound spiritual advice and give you absolution.
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I_v_I
Guest
@JD27076
With all due respect to those that have posted replies to your question, I must respectfully disagree. I find that the Word of God teaches there is no need for confession to another man in order to be forgiven of your sins (any sins). God and God alone forgives us our sins, with no need of a mere man because we have much better than a mere man who stands as our Priest. We have Jesus the Christ Himself as our Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-15)! Amen! He is the only mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). The only one! Meaning priests who say you must be forgiven through them are at best terribly mistaken and at worst willfully misrepresenting God’s Word. We are told to confess our sins to one another (other believers) in order that we might be delivered from sins we struggle with through the prayers of one or more more mature Christians, not to be forgiven of them (James 5:16).
With all due respect to those that have posted replies to your question, I must respectfully disagree. I find that the Word of God teaches there is no need for confession to another man in order to be forgiven of your sins (any sins). God and God alone forgives us our sins, with no need of a mere man because we have much better than a mere man who stands as our Priest. We have Jesus the Christ Himself as our Great High Priest (Hebrews 4:14-15)! Amen! He is the only mediator between man and God (1 Timothy 2:5). The only one! Meaning priests who say you must be forgiven through them are at best terribly mistaken and at worst willfully misrepresenting God’s Word. We are told to confess our sins to one another (other believers) in order that we might be delivered from sins we struggle with through the prayers of one or more more mature Christians, not to be forgiven of them (James 5:16).
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JD27076
Guest
Im your first post. So proud to have a Protestant. Lol I already been to confession once, I was really embarrassed. I might go again…I should get mass schedules.
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Dorothy
Guest
The priest is Persona Christi and stands in for Christ. When Jesus appeared to the apostles after his Resurrection he breathed on them the Holy Spirit and said “Whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven, whose sins you shall retain they are retained.”
Yes, we can confess our sins to one another and that is helpful, as mature Christians can share good advice.
You are on a Catholic Forum; what you believe in is not Catholic Doctrine. Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura, as the Bible does not promote that belief.
po18guy
Well-known member
While you are certainly entitled to your belief, such beliefs did not exist in Christianity until almost 1,500 years after Christ. Never mind private confession, public confession is biblical. Have a look at Nehemiah 9:1-3. Old Testament does not apply, you say?
OK, how or why did Paul forgive sins “in the person of Christ” 2 Corinthians 2:10 if that was not biblical? Catholic and Orthodox Priests do this exactly as Paul did.
I must ask if you have ever heard the words of absolution? This is Jesus’ own example from the bible. He told the sinner that their sins were forgiven.
I wonder why Christ gave power over sin to the Apostles, if not to forgive sins?
po18guy
Well-known member
I believe that his difficulty with confession stems from the fact that his community is bible-based, rather than Christ-based. There is a huge difference in philosophy, historical perspective and theological depth.
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