Mortal sin at death

[cyberwolf001]

I’m trying to hunt them down now. The message was basically pointing that just as so many come into the faith on there death bed, many also fall at this time as well.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I’d have to surmise that a confession made without at least imperfect contrition would be invalid. (I.e., the sacraments are not ‘magic bullets’; if you are not cooperating with grace you are not getting it!)
.

You are correct. A confession without at least imperfect contrition would be invalid.

I’d like to add that many Saints and Confirmed as legitimate apiritions of the Blessed Virgin state that many fight the good fight right up to there last hour only to fall by the wayside for committing one mortal sin,** normally a sin of omission or committing a venial sin one time to many thus making the venial sin into a mortal one.**

**Bolding = mine **

Venial sin, regardless of the number, never, and I stress never, add up to a mortal sin. One can be predisposed to commit a mortal sin due to escessive venial sin, but they never total to a magic number to equal one.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[mattkubes]

Venial sin, regardless of the number, never, and I stress never, add up to a mortal sin. One can be predisposed to commit a mortal sin due to escessive venial sin, but they never total to a magic number to equal one.

Thanks for confirming that, Deacon Ed.

 

[justinkolo]

I’d like to add that many Saints and Confirmed as legitimate apiritions of the Blessed Virgin state that many fight the good fight right up to there last hour only to fall by the wayside for committing one mortal sin, normally a sin of omission or committing a venial sin one time to many thus making the venial sin into a mortal one.

Not sure that’s 100% accurate, especially the venial sins. But there’s something to it, because the one Prayer to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ends thus:

Especially in the last struggle of our life,
at the moment of our death,
when all hell shall be unchained against us
to snatch away our souls,
in that dread moment,
that hour so terrible,
on which depends our eternity-
then, most tender Virgin,
make us feel
how great is the sweetness of your motherly Heart,
how great your power with the Heart of Jesus,
opening to us in the very fount of mercy itself
a safe refuge
so that one day we too may join with you in heaven
in praising the Heart of Jesus forever.
Amen.

Hence why we should all pray for final perseverence…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

From the diary of St Faustina, Jesus told her that the Chaplet of Divine Mercy said for a dying individual is most efficacious.

 

[LilyM]

Not sure that’s 100% accurate, especially the venial sins. But there’s something to it, because the one Prayer to the Immaculate Heart of Mary ends thus:

Hence why we should all pray for final perseverence…

Well, the Hail Mary also requests the Blessed Mother’s prayers at the hour of our death - it really is the critical moment towards which all our lives are tending and on which our eternal future will rest.

God grant us all the strength to persevere unto death!

 

[Ignatius]

Always best to make an immediate act of contrition after sinning gravely… while doing it think of how Christ suffered for us and how much you love Him for doing so… with the firm intent to go to confession asap…}

Exactly!

 

[KestrelRose]

Hi all! Wow, I’ve been away a looong time. New job and new kids are the biggest reasons (not that anyone was inquiring). At any rate, I’ve a question on what I take to be a fundamental teaching of Catholicism.

I’m sure I’ve read in a number of places that if a Catholic dies with unconfessed mortal sin tainting his soul, he will be condemned for eternity. I’m just wondering whether that teaching is correct, as I’ve stated it. And, I’m also wondering whether it doesn’t seem a bit odd to any other Catholics out there? I suppose I’m bothered mostly by the sense in which it seems to be a bit merciless and arbitrary.

By arbitrary, I mean, does it not seem strange to think that one could live saintly for many many years, commit a serious sin and, before he could confess it, he gets into a car accident, say, and dies instantly. I guess it just seems more rational to think that the whole of one’s life must be taken into account at judgment.

What do you think? Anyone out there sympathetic with my concerns here?

I am not particularly sympathetic with your concerns. Basically, I trust that God knows what He is doing, and He will know whether or not an individual has deliberately turned away from Him.

Splitting hairs is something human beings enjoy doing. God probably has better things to do.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

To restate what is necessary for mortal sin,

1. It must be a grave matter
2. The individual must have full knowledge
3. The individual must give full consent.

Therefore, one does not “accidentally” commit mortal sin. This totally removes it from the arbitrary or capricious aspect of thinking.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Yankee_Trad]

I’d like to see the messages that you’re talking about too!

Also, I don’t think any number of venial sins can add up to a mortal sin…that doesn’t really follow. They’re venial precisely because they don’t meet one of the three conditions and, if anything, habit would diminish the capacity for a sin to become mortal. Could you clarify what you meant by that?

The only way that I know of would be if, you made a lot of small, similar thefts from the same person. And over time they added up to a large theft. Then it would be mortal.

 

[FanChan]

The only way that I know of would be if, you made a lot of small, similar thefts from the same person. And over time they added up to a large theft. Then it would be mortal.

That suggests that a small theft isn’t a mortal sin. Stealing anything from anyone with full knowledge of what you’re doing is a mortal sin. Anything that falls under the jurisdiction of the ten commandments (i.e. I shall not steal) is mortal.

 

[LilyM]

That suggests that a small theft isn’t a mortal sin. Stealing anything from anyone with full knowledge of what you’re doing is a mortal sin. Anything that falls under the jurisdiction of the ten commandments (i.e. I shall not steal) is mortal.

I highly doubt that the consensus among priests and moral theologians (and I’d trust their judgement more than yours) would ever be that stealing five cents from ANYONE would EVER be a mortal sin - it simply wouldn’t meet the definition of ‘grave matter’.

In terms of theft, the amount stolen IS at least a part of determining whether the matter is grave, among other things (for example, whether your stealing is motivated by extreme poverty etc).

 

[mattkubes]

St. Thomas Aquinas has a nice section in the Summa on this very question. I think he makes an important point when he says, “Yet if his intention is to rob and injure his neighbor, there may be a mortal sin even in these very little things, even as there may be through consent in a mere thought.”

Anyways, the general consensus among theologians (based on what I’ve hear apologists say on the CA radio shows) is that the dollar amount IS important. Although I don’t remember exactly what that amount is

 

[peary]

Hi all! Wow, I’ve been away a looong time. New job and new kids are the biggest reasons (not that anyone was inquiring). At any rate, I’ve a question on what I take to be a fundamental teaching of Catholicism.

I’m sure I’ve read in a number of places that if a Catholic dies with unconfessed mortal sin tainting his soul, he will be condemned for eternity. I’m just wondering whether that teaching is correct, as I’ve stated it. And, I’m also wondering whether it doesn’t seem a bit odd to any other Catholics out there? I suppose I’m bothered mostly by the sense in which it seems to be a bit merciless and arbitrary.

By arbitrary, I mean, does it not seem strange to think that one could live saintly for many many years, commit a serious sin and, before he could confess it, he gets into a car accident, say, and dies instantly. I guess it just seems more rational to think that the whole of one’s life must be taken into account at judgment.

What do you think? Anyone out there sympathetic with my concerns here?

Let’s try this one again. Peter says that Baptism saves you, and I contend that, even at the moment of death if a sincere baptized individual dies with mortal sin, he can still be redeemed in purgatory. One can lead a rather questionable life and forget about the covenant made with God in Baptism; however, since the sacrament has washed away the stain of original sin and infused sanctifying grace into the soul, I kind of go with that - that such grace is still in the soul, and can be a lifeline to eternal life. Some will disagree, but I would rather err on the side of grace and God’s mercy.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Let’s try this one again. Peter says that Baptism saves you, and I contend that, even at the moment of death if a sincere baptized individual dies with mortal sin, he can still be redeemed in purgatory.** One can lead a rather questionable life and forget about the covenant made with God in Baptism; however, since the sacrament has washed away the stain of original sin and infused sanctifying grace into the soul, I kind of go with that - that such grace is still in the soul, and can be a lifeline to eternal life. Some will disagree, but I would rather err on the side of grace and God’s mercy.

**
bolding = mine**

Peary,
Such a stand is Cafeteria Catholicism at its highest. Purgatory does not remove mortal sin. It satisfies temporal punishment due to repented and absolved sin. If a person who has mortal sin dies and has perfect contrition, than yes, that individual will go to heaven. Unrepented mortal sin will not get you into heaven. This is church teaching. Your stand reflects the erroneous once saved, always saved theology of protestantism.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[thistle]

Let’s try this one again. Peter says that Baptism saves you, and I contend that, even at the moment of death if a sincere baptized individual dies with mortal sin, he can still be redeemed in purgatory. One can lead a rather questionable life and forget about the covenant made with God in Baptism; however, since the sacrament has washed away the stain of original sin and infused sanctifying grace into the soul, I kind of go with that - that such grace is still in the soul, and can be a lifeline to eternal life. Some will disagree, but I would rather err on the side of grace and God’s mercy.

Such a belief is heresy. If you really believe that then I hope you are not receiving Communion.

If you die in a state of mortal sin you go to Hell.
Purgatory is only for those who are saved (i.e. are in a state of grace when they die) but need purifying before going on to heaven.

 

[peary]

**
bolding = mine**

Peary,
Such a stand is Cafeteria Catholicism at its highest. Purgatory does not remove mortal sin. It satisfies temporal punishment due to repented and absolved sin. If a person who has mortal sin dies and has perfect contrition, than yes, that individual will go to heaven. Unrepented mortal sin will not get you into heaven. This is church teaching. Your stand reflects the erroneous once saved, always saved theology of protestantism.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Well, Deacon Ed, I tend to differ with you on many accounts here. For one thing, I do not believe in OSAS. As a Catholic Christian, I reject that. and it is not logical to believe that, say, for instance, that your mother or my mother were ‘good’ people although neither one attended Mass regularly, though they did attend many times during the year. But suppose each of them practiced the corporal and spiritual works of mercy in their lives. Do you actually think that God is going to condemn either of them to eternal punishment because they missed Mass 5 times and did not confess this, yet loved much? C’mon.

 

[mattkubes]

Do you actually think that God is going to condemn either of them to eternal punishment because they missed Mass 5 times and did not confess this, yet loved much? C’mon.

From what I can tell, a lot of the meaning of “mortal sin” has been lost to us. Those who are in a state of mortal sin, despite how they feel, will flee from God’s presence at their particular judgment. When someone commits a mortal sin, they completely choose creature over Creator, and this choice is ratified at death. For the one who has killed grace in the soul, to spend eternity in the presence of Grace Himself would be infinitely more intolerable than the sufferings of Hell. This is why God respects that exercise of the free will and conceals His presence for eternity from the damned.

But the thing is, we don’t know if someone else is in a state of mortal sin or not. Remember, those three conditions apply objectively to everyone. That’s why we should pray that those who have already passed away chose to accept the grace that God was freely offering them. We should also pray that they were given the grace to make an act of perfect contrition in the last moments of their life (God is not restricted by time and dispenses His grace in the eternal now).

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Well, Deacon Ed, I tend to differ with you on many accounts here. For one thing, I do not believe in OSAS. As a Catholic Christian, I reject that. and it is not logical to believe that, say, for instance, that your mother or my mother were ‘good’ people although neither one attended Mass regularly, though they did attend many times during the year. But suppose each of them practiced the corporal and spiritual works of mercy in their lives. Do you actually think that God is going to condemn either of them to eternal punishment because they missed Mass 5 times and did not confess this, yet loved much? C’mon.

Interesting. You say you do not believe in once saved - always saved, and then apply it to try and prove your very point???

As far as the person not going to mass, the question is did they have a valid reason, such as illness or inability to get there due to transportation, weather or something like that. If one does not go to mass because he/she “has something else” they want to do, or just does not want to get out of bed, than yes my friend, that is mortal sin.

You also miss the point of condemnation. It is not God who condemns us, but rather it is we who condemn ourselves, knowing with total objectivity, whether we can enter God’s presence or not. Don’t take just my word for it. Contact a knowledgeable priest who is objectively orthodox in his beliefs, teachings and practices.

Do not set yourself up as the arbiter of whether the Church’s teaching is correct, rather accept the teaching of the Church which is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I for one would not want to say He is wrong.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[peary]

Interesting. You say you do not believe in once saved - always saved, and then apply it to try and prove your very point???

The Lord takes us where we are, not where you want a person to be. That means mercy, love and forgiveness. And He deals with each of us on an individual basis. What I probably should have clarified is that I believe that one can call on the Lord and may have hope of eternal life because “Baptism saves you.” An infusion of sanctifying grace means that it is an integral part of the soul and the person. One is never far from eternal life.

As far as the person not going to mass, the question is did they have a valid reason, such as illness or inability to get there due to transportation, weather or something like that. If one does not go to mass because he/she “has something else” they want to do, or just does not want to get out of bed, than yes my friend, that is mortal sin.

Mortal sin means an action that kills the soul. It makes it just that much more difficult to enter into a state of grace.

You also miss the point of condemnation. It is not God who condemns us, but rather it is we who condemn ourselves, knowing with total objectivity, whether we can enter God’s presence or not. Don’t take just my word for it. Contact a knowledgeable priest who is objectively orthodox in his beliefs, teachings and practices.

I understand your position, and we are probably on the same track. However, I am convinced that God will exercise is love, mercy and forgiveness above all else before condemnation. That is what purgatory is all about,

Do not set yourself up as the arbiter of whether the Church’s teaching is correct, rather accept the teaching of the Church which is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I for one would not want to say He is wrong.

It’s not a matter of setting myself up as arbiter of the Church’s teachings, but a theological one involving the limitless love, mercy, and compassion of the Almighty for us. We just have different views on how God may exercise His condemnation of us.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Same here.