Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

[Robert1111]

Hello there.

First of all, i’m Italian so i hope that my English is good enough.

I wanted to start by saying that i’m not a supporter of the notion that “Hell might be empty”. We have too many reasons to think that this isn’t true.

But still, the traditional understanding of mortal sin and death gives me many problems.

The traditional understanding is that we all have to fear sudden death, because if we die suddenly after having committed an actual mortal sin we will go to Hell, where we will burn forever and ever and suffer untold pain with the pain of loss and the pain of sense. Forever. With no escape. So maybe a young catholic who makes love with his girlfriend and suddenly dies in a car crash on his way back to home, will go to Hell for eternity where untold suffering and misery and pain awaits him.

While this seems to make sense at first glance, the problems start when we consider that we have people like Rudolf Höss, who was a genocidial sick puppy, that manage to repent and be saved

Now you might say “what’s the problem? If he repented of course he is forgiven, God forgives every sin if you are repentant”. Well, the problem, my dear friends, is that Rudolf Höss repented because he HAD TIME to repent.

My question is: Does God love some people more than others?

I think that the answer to this question is an emphatic NO.

For sure, It’s a dogma that those who die in mortal sin go to Hell, but what does it mean to “die”?

Well, we have the last Rites and way the Church administers the last Sacraments, and all of this can shed a light on this subject, i want to quote the article “How long after death can Last Rites be given?” from Catholic News Live

“ In the old manuals of theology, there was discussion of the point made before, about the way the soul separates from the body.
“In Sabetti-Barrett I found [………] In a nutshell, this says that if in most cases a person dies suddenly of natural causes then there is probably still some life remaining after the last breath. In the case of a slow death from illness it may remain for a few minutes maybe six or, according to some experts 30 minutes. (See how the authors are divided… auctores scinduntur.) In the case of a sudden death some life might remain longer, even perhaps to the point of putrefaction. If a priest finds the person and he is morally certain that he is there in the time that life could still be present to some extent he can and indeed ought to anoint, but conditionally. In the case of illness the author thinks that a half hour is the length of time that the priest has to get there after apparent death from illness and one hour in the case of sudden death. If, after that time but before corruption sets in, he can anoint. Whether or not he ought to the author leaves to those wiser than he”

So if the Last Sacraments can be given in these situations, this seems to imply that these persons had time to repent before dying and God gave them the Grace to repent (whether or not they accepted it is a completely different kettle of fish of course) so that nobody “happens” to die in mortal sin but if you die in mortal sin this is only the result of your unwillingness to repent.

 

[Socrates92]

Could be. We’ll never know for sure until judgement day.

 

[Robert1111]

That’s true.

But if what i have reported isn’t true, the implications would be very Calvinistic if you ask me.

Let’s suppose that none of what i said in the op is true. What would be the result?

We would have a universe in which, if you are lucky and very beloved by God, you can be a genocidial sick puppy like Rudolf Höss and still have all the time you need to repent and find God’s mercy despite being responsible for death of millions of people, whereas if you are not so lucky you will burn in Hell forever and ever with the pain of loss and the pain of sense for much less severe sins, only because you were hit by a bus at the wrong time in the wrong place. This reeks of Calvinistic predestination (even though it’s not the same thing the effects would be the same). I can understand someone going to hell for some “run of the mill” mortal sins if he stubbornly refuses God’s Mercy until the end (because if you willingly refuse to repent even the most seemingly “small” mortal sin turns into the sin against the Holy Ghost and the final impenitence) but that’s quite different from simply going to Hell because “whelp, that coked out drug addict didn’t see you while you were crossing the street, so now you will burn in Hell forever. Tough luck, buddy, but hey, that’s the way it is. You haven’t been a winner in the cosmic lottery”. As i said, i can’t help but finding these implications strongly Calvinistic and i can’t see how it can argued otherwise.

A universe in which your inherent goodness doesn’t count because if God loves you so much he will save you even if you have only a small glimpse of goodness inside you (Rudolf Höss) while at the same time he damns someone else to Hell despite this person being a pretty good person who committed some sins out of weakness, would be a terribly unjust universe.

Well, maybe not unjust in the strict sense of the word, since even a single mortal sin is enough to merit Hell, regardless of the magnitude and ugliness of the sin and regardless of how many sins you have committed in your life, but we would have a God who treats some of his children like… well… children, while at the same time he would impose very strict standards upon others.

A God like this would be very hard to love.

 

[Robert1111]

I have written these posts because this kind of predication about death and sin has been used a lot in the past. While i can see the reasons behind this choice (scaring the sinners away from their sins and preventing presumption) it simply doesn’t work when you dig deep enough into it, and I also think that the semi-calvinistic implications of this doctrine cannot be overlooked.

This doctrine, if true, would imply that if you are loved enough and God wants your salvation badly enough, you have nothing to fear and you will be saved even if you are responsible for the death of millions of innocents. But, if God doesn’t particularly want to save you, he will allow your damnation for some sins incredibly smaller than the ones committed by Rudolf Höss.

It’s very, very, very similar to the concepts of unconditional predestination and the perseverance of the saints. I have nothing against Rudolf Höss going to Heaven, but the concept of him going to Heaven while some poor soul goes to hell because he or she simply “happened” to die in mortal sin, well, disturbs me a lot.

Expecially because we are Catholics and we know that nothing happens by chance, nothing happens unless God at least permitted it and was willing to permit it. So it’s not like God “couldn’t” have saved the hypothetical 20 years old, in this case he would have permitted his death without a chance to repent over premarital sex while taking care that genocidal monsters have all the time needed to find his mercy.

 

[Vico]

…

A person should make an immediate act of perfect contrition after a mortal sin.

St. Thomas Aquinas wrote

I answer that, Since to love a thing is to will it good, in a twofold way anything may be loved more, or less. In one way on the part of the act of the will itself, which is more or less intense. In this way God does not love some things more than others, because He loves all things by an act of the will that is one, simple, and always the same. In another way on the part of the good itself that a person wills for the beloved. In this way we are said to love that one more than another, for whom we will a greater good, though our will is not more intense. In this way we must needs say that God loves some things more than others. For since God’s love is the cause of goodness in things, as has been said (Article 2), no one thing would be better than another, if God did not will greater good for one than for another.

Summa Theologiae > First Part > Question 20 God’s love > Article 3 Whether God loves all things equally?

 

[Robert1111]

A person should make an immediate act of perfect contrition after a mortal sin.

Yes but that’s not my point. Furthermore, knowing when you have committed a mortal sin or having enough contrition to make an act of contrition that is not only lip service is not automatic.

 

[Robert1111]

As for Aquinas, I know him and he believed in unconditional predestination, precisely the view i’m criticizing in this topic.

I’m criticizing the view that God, while having died for every single human being, doesn’t particularly want the salvation of some of us (I don’t say that he directly wants the damnation of some people because that view is not acceptable in the Catholic Church, but still the belief in unconditional predestination is not that much different) and that’s why, if the traditional understanding of mortal sin and death were true, we would have a universe in which we have a fornicator in Hell who wasn’t even given the chance to repent and a genocidial murderer in Heaven because God blesses him with a long life and many actual Graces to make him repent.

We would have people who would have all the odds stacked against them and who basically went to Hell because they weren’t a living monument to virtue itself, and other people who basically only need to retain a small glimpse of humanity inside them (again, Rudolf Höss, he was a despicable human being but since he repented he wasn’t completely lost and apparently this small glimpse of humanity gained him salvation) to reach salvation.

I can’t believe that a Good God would do this.

And yes, i know that Aquinas believed that God doesn’t love all of his children in the same way, but Aquinas is no dogma. His belief in unconditional predestination (which basically means that those who are not unconditionally predestined are screwed from the start, no matter how you slice it. That’s why in the Summa he said that knowing who is predestined and who is not would be harmful because those who are not predestined would fall into desperation, since there is nothing you can do to change it and predestination according to his view his ante preavisa merita, which means before foreseen merit, and was adamantly convinced that those who are not unconditionally predestined cannot die in the state of Grace) is also not a dogma while it’s a tenable belief in the Catholic Church.

Here http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm#article4 everyone can read what i’m saying about his belief in predestination.

He says

“ God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His Justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others”.

And in other points he tells very clearly that predestination is wholly unconditional, but the point quoted above is the most straightforward. So that’s exactly the view i’m criticizing. I cannot believe that there are some “cosmic winners” who were chosen by God to be vessels of His Mercy and for this reason they reach Heaven regardless of how many sins they commit and the magnitude and ugliness of their sins, while the “cosmic losers”, rejected by God, were created only to show God’s Justice in their eternal punishment (with the pain of loss and the pain of sense. Forever. With no escape whatsoever). A God like this would be a monster to be mordibly feared, not a Father worthy of love.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

A person should make an immediate act of perfect contrition after a mortal sin.

Yes but that’s not my point. Furthermore, knowing when you have committed a mortal sin or having enough contrition to make an act of contrition that is not only lip service is not automatic.

The motal sin is not an accident. Catechism

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart [133] do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
[133] Cf. Mk 3:5-6; Lk 16:19-31.

 

[Robert1111]

@Vico

I never said it was an accident.

But if a 15 years old masturbates with full knowledge and deliberate consent and then he dies suddenly, he will be condemned to hell.

On the other hand, Rudolf Höss is most likely saved.

I’ve never said that mortal sin is an accident, i’m saying that if external conditions (such as being killed by a drug addict) can make sure that we will remain “frozen” for eternity in mortal sin without a chance to repent before the separation of the soul from the body, this would imply that either God doesn’t have control over our lives or that simply doesn’t give two hoots about our salvation, while he makes sure that some unbelievable monster reaches old age and find repentance.

 

[Vico]

… I cannot believe that there are some “cosmic winners” who were chosen by God to be vessels of His Mercy and for this reason they reach Heaven regardless of how many sins they commit and the magnitude and ugliness of their sins, while the “cosmic losers”, rejected by God, were created only to show God’s Justice in their eternal punishment (with the pain of loss and the pain of sense. Forever. With no escape whatsoever). A God like this would be a monster to be mordibly feared, not a Father worthy of love.

The Catholic Church teaches dogmatically that man has free will and that even those that do not know the Gospel may be saved. Some of the dogmas about predestination and grace are (from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
• The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
• There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious ( gratia vere et mere sufficiens ).

 

[Vico]

@Vico

I never said it was an accident.

But if a 15 years old masturbates with full knowledge and deliberate consent and then he dies suddenly, he will be condemned to hell.

…

It could happen. However, the three conditions are needed for mortal sin. It must be full consent which excludes what is involuntary. If there is only partial consent then it is venial. Catechism

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. …

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

2352 … To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

 

[ineedofmercy]

I too got very annoyed at this when I was 13
That i could die accidentally after watching porn knowing its a sin and probably burn but maybe be given a final chance after death through a miracles

I over came this but trusting and assuming that God won’t let someone die before their time
And that he remembers all
So sure a guy who sins all his life not believing in God yet knowing full well he was sinning but gets baptized at 80 or goes to confession before he dies
Really looks like he cheated the system

And a kid who made a mistake because he loved a girl and did not wait until marriage
Sure seems pretty unfair if he went to hell

But I believe God repents intentions and grants final chances to people who slipped up but desired mercy or at least didn’t lead a sinful life

Confession has a priest represent God
But God doesn’t need a priest for his dying children
And only he can judge if someone deserves that last chance

I can’t judge what is fair and it’s just my opinion against an all just all knowing God

So I try to believe he knows what he’s doing even when it seems like utter bs at times

 

[Start]

At least the genocidal person is able to appreciate it. And how come all the examples are similar in nature?

 

[Latin]

Robert1111:

@Vico

I never said it was an accident.

But if a 15 years old masturbates with full knowledge and deliberate consent and then he dies suddenly, he will be condemned to hell.

It could happen. However, the three conditions are needed for mortal sin. It must be full consent which excludes what is involuntary. If there is only partial consent then it is venial.

Some of the dogmas about predestination and grace are (from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
  .

Prævisa Merita

God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

Predestination | Catholic Answers Encyclopedia

.
I’m sure we both know, in reality, predestination to Heaven decided who are those who will die in the state of grace and who are those who will die in the state of mortal sin.
.
Do you agree with me Vico, the principle God predestined His elect to heaven, He could predestined the entire human race to heaven?

Do you agree with me Vico, the principle God reprobated the rest of the human race who are not predestined to Heaven, He could reprobated the entire human race?
.
Thank you Vico for your answers in advance.

God bless

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Robert1111:

@Vico

I never said it was an accident.

But if a 15 years old masturbates with full knowledge and deliberate consent and then he dies suddenly, he will be condemned to hell.

It could happen. However, the three conditions are needed for mortal sin. It must be full consent which excludes what is involuntary. If there is only partial consent then it is venial.

Some of the dogmas about predestination and grace are (from Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott):

• God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
• God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
  .

Prævisa Merita

God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

Predestination | Catholic Answers

.
I’m sure we both know, in reality, predestination to Heaven decided who are those who will die in the state of grace and who are those who will die in the state of mortal sin.
.
Do you agree with me Vico, the principle God predestined His elect to heaven, He could predestined the entire human race to heaven?

Do you agree with me Vico, the principle God reprobated the rest of the human race who are not predestined to Heaven, He could reprobated the entire human race?
.
Thank you Vico for your answers in advance.

God bless

No, for the purpose of free will is to allow expression of charity necessary to become sharers in the divine nature (theosis), and The Holy Trinity has universal salvic will. Wisdom 11:24 “Only thou art all-merciful, as befits the Almighty, and dost overlook our human slips, in hope of our repentance.”

Both positions (Absolute Predestination and Conditioned Predestination) are allowable for the mystery of predestination. Common to both positions is that:

In time God first gives to the predestined effective graces and then eternal bliss as a reward for the merits which flow from their free co-operation with grace (ordo executionis).

We know that The Holy Trinity did not predetermine all to heaven or hell, for some are in heaven and some are in hell. Matt. 25:46 Jesus states that some go to eternal punishment.

A Fourth Lateran Council (1215) statement alludes to the fact that some then living would be in hell.
See: Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers

The Council of Trent declared that certainty in regard to one’s predestination can be attained by special Revelation only, contrary to John Calvin.

 

[MT1926]

Well, the problem, my dear friends, is that Rudolf Höss repented because he HAD TIME to repent.

I just wanted to jump in and ask why is this a problem? I understand the point you are trying to make but this is a never ending journey you are taking.

Let’s change the example a little and say the kid dies in a car crash 16 months after committing the mortal sin. Are we going to now say hey God is unjust because Rudolf had 16 years to repent.

Basically what I am getting at is who gets to make the rules about time you and me or God?

Also, I just wanted to point out that you are making the assumption that the kid committed a mortal sin. Sure his actions were grave but mortal sin also requires full knowledge and complete consent.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

Living in a world that worships the pursuit of sexual pleasure I am not so sure if our youth have full knowledge of premarital sex being a mortal sin anymore.

Just my observations

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

A universe in which your inherent goodness doesn’t count because if God loves you so much he will save you even if you have only a small glimpse of goodness inside you (Rudolf Höss) while at the same time he damns someone else to Hell despite this person being a pretty good person who committed some sins out of weakness, would be a terribly unjust universe.

Well, maybe not unjust in the strict sense of the word, since even a single mortal sin is enough to merit Hell, regardless of the magnitude and ugliness of the sin and regardless of how many sins you have committed in your life, but we would have a God who treats some of his children like… well… children, while at the same time he would impose very strict standards upon others.

A God like this would be very hard to love.

Yes He would be. Which is why I think you might be standing to close to the page on this one. I think you need to try to take a step back and try looking at the bigger picture.

I’m not trying to nit pick because I enjoy pointing out errors, I’m hoping that it might help you rethink your examples.

who committed some sins out of weakness

Well God would know the extent of this persons weakness and would judge the extent of the persons sin. I think sometimes we need to sit back and trust in God. If Rudolf ends up in heaven and the kid ends up in hell God has a good reason for this. Sure we might not be able to see it in this life, but that’s because we are standing to close to the painting.

This doctrine, if true, would imply that if you are loved enough and God wants your salvation badly enough, you have nothing to fear and you will be saved even if you are responsible for the death of millions of innocents. But, if God doesn’t particularly want to save you, he will allow your damnation for some sins incredibly smaller than the ones committed by Rudolf Höss.

I just wanted to point out that by making this comparison you seem to be toeing the line of our salvation being dependent on us and what we do right or wrong. Basically Works salvation.

So it’s not like God “couldn’t” have saved the hypothetical 20 years old, in this case he would have permitted his death without a chance to repent over premarital sex while taking care that genocidal monsters have all the time needed to find his mercy.

However, we also believe God knows the hearts of man so wouldn’t it be plausible that God already knows the 20 year old would have never repented regardless of the amount of time He gave him?

God Bless

PS…Meant to respond to the Italy comment. My Dad grew up in Terni before moving to the USA in 1965. Also, my daughter is actually over there right now studying a semester in Rome.

 

[fhansen]

God isn’t sitting around waiting to damn us on a technicality. Remember that while we may have guidelines, only God knows each person’s eternal destiny. Scripture tells us that man judges by appearances while God judges by the heart. But the doctrine on mortal sin reveals a critical truth: man can reject God and love in favor of cold selfish pride, anger and hatred. We must die in a state of mortal sin. Consider the following teaching:
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621

 

[Robert1111]

@Latin

What you said, while being tenable for a Catholic, still seems Calvinistic and completely horrifying. I know that it is a tenable opinion (it’s the classic thomistic understanding) but thankfully we aren’t oblige to believe it and the molinist explanation is also tenable, and also much more likely to be true given the teachings of the Saints such as Saint Faustina.

And Jesus Words to Saint Faustina, such as

“How very much I desire the salvation of souls! My dearest secretary, write that I want to pour out My divine life into human souls and sanctify them, if only they were willing to accept My grace. The greatest sinners would achieve great sanctity, if only they would trust in My mercy. The very inner depths of My being are filled to overflowing with mercy, and it is being poured out upon all I have created. My delight is to act in a human soul and to fill it with My mercy (133) and to justify it. My kingdom on earth is My life in the human soul" (Diary, 1784)

Would be absolutely meaningless and completely false if salvation depended on predestination and those who are not predestined are just royally sc**ed.

The God you are describing is a petty tyrant worthy only of fear and hatred, certainly not love. Ask yourself a question: you just had a child, you love him more than yourself, you will sacrifice your life for him. Imagine if you knew that he is fated to suffer untold pain and misery (both spiritual and psysical, after the resurrection of the bodies) for ever and ever and EVER just because he isn’t on God’s special list and thus he is guaranteed to die in mortal sin. He can spend his life doing good works and helping children but don’t bother, he will die in mortal sin. On the other hand, if you are on God’s special “vip” list, you can kill your entire family and live an entire life in the deepest mortal sin, that his powerful hand will just make sure that before death you have sanctifying grace and salvation.

This would be a very loving God, right?

Instead Our Lord taught us that above all else, He is a God of mercy. St. Faustina told us that Christ cries out to everyone at the time of death. Everyone has a chance to repent even in the last minute of their lives, just as the good thief did. Remember what the Bible tells us, God wills that everyone should repent. Unconditional predestination, while still sadly tenable for a Catholic, is just horrific beyond belief. It just makes my heart tremble in disgust.

 

[Robert1111]

I just wanted to point out that by making this comparison you seem to be toeing the line of our salvation being dependent on us and what we do right or wrong. Basically Works salvation.

Robert1111:

No, works salvation has nothing to do with it. But believing that there is plenty of basically good persons in Hell and monsters like Rudolf Höss in Heaven basically makes the entire concept about ethic and trying to be a good person completely worthless. At the end of day, it would all depend on whether God put you on his special “VIP list” or not. If he did, you can be Peter Scully and still be saved. If you didn’t, you only need to fail at being a monument to virtue itself and you are royally scr**ed.

This is also basically the concept of unconditional predestination which is tenable (i don’t know how or why) for Catholics so i’m not inventing anything.

If you read Aquinas http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm you will see that he believed in the same concepts explained by Latin.