The only good reason for the kid going to Hell would be him refusing stubbornly to repent and dying WILLINGLY in final impenitence. If that were to happen, yes, i would have no problems with Rudolf going to Heaven and the kid going to Hell, because he would have been truly and totally his choice.
God of course. But still, this kind of begs the question. This is not about having 16 years to repent or 16 days or 16 seconds. This is about whether or not this person had any say in the matter or not. What seems horrifying to me is the concept that final impenitence can just happen to you without you having a say in the matter. That’s why the common understanding of sin and the process of death has always bothered me, because i cannot reconcile it with a loving God. Like… At all.
I understand the point you are making, but it seems to me you are letting this bother you way too much.
All I’m saying is maybe the kid is stubborn, don’t know. I would have faith that when you see the big picture you will have “no problem”.
Yep first generation. Full blooded Italian. Mom’s parents came over from Cosenza. No luck on learning Italian. We never spoke it in the house because the priority was dad learning English. The one big mistake my parents made.P.s: so you are an italian-american. That’s cool.
Did your father teach you a little bit of Italian?
To me I think the person had a say in the matter before they committed the mortal sin.
This is what confuses me. If it’s not about how much time or how many chances you get then Why don’t you have a say in the matter? Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent so you do have a say in the matter before you commit the sin. To enter into mortal sin with the mindset I can repent of this at a later date doesn’t seem to reconcile with being loving to God.either.
Not really the point I was trying to make is only God knows what is in our hearts. In my opinion verbal repentance isn’t what is necessary for salvation it is repentance in our hearts. The point I was making was a God knows what was in that kids heart at the time of his death, we do not. Maybe that kids heart was repentant and he would have verbally repented if he could have, and maybe he never would. My only point is it is not for us to judge, which is why I tend not to spend a lot of time thinking about scenarios such as these.
I don’t know a lot about this but I don’t believe that there is any teaching on when the soul leaves the body. I heard Dr. Andrés say the other day that If someone dies while the Priest is on the way to the hospital the Priest should still give the last rights when he gets there, even hours after the death.
God could do a lot of things. He could have sent angels to do all of my barn work today so I wouldn’t be laying on ice packs in pain right now but for some reason He chose not to. Once again, it’s not my call. I don’t know why He does what He does but I have faith that someday I will see the whole picture.
But why double standards? Does it seem even remotely fair that can i be a new Peter Scully and go to Heaven while this kid gets burned in Hell forever? I mean, come on.
Yeah, that’s what Aquinas said. But Aquinas (a great theologian but still he had some peculiar views) also believed that it would be perfectly fair for some people to be born not predestined to Heaven. All of this, while believing that predestination is the CAUSE of salvation and ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY (and infallible, in the sense that the predestined are absolutely guaranteed to die in the state of Grace) for salvation, and completely gratuitous AND before foreseen merits on top of that (which means that some people are not predestined just because God didn’t want to predestined them to Heaven, he explains that very clearly here http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm *)
Yeah of course, just like someone has a say in the matter before he commits a robbery, doesn’t mean that him being sentenced to life sentence without parole while a serial murderer gets away with it scott free would be fair.To me I think the person had a say in the matter before they committed the mortal sin.
Robert1111:
Maybe i haven’t been clear enough. I meant to say that we don’t have a say in the matter IF AND ONLY IF we can’t repent when it matters the most, I.e when we are dying, since after death there are no other chances. Sure, you could say that the kid shouldn’t have sinned, which is true, but then we return to the point about horrific monsters going to Heaven. I mean, it seems like some people (again, under the most common view, which i don’t believe it’s true) get to bear God’s Justice and other people get to enjoy God’s Mercy without having much of a say in the matter.
Sr. Josefa Menendez (1890-1923) -Jesus’ Message to the World of His Mercy for All
That’s the point. And that’s why i quoted an article in my OP which spoke about this matter. The last Rites are Sacraments, and the Sacraments only benefit the living, not the dead. The Sacraments are entirely useless to the dead. So we return to the point i was making, i.e death (separation of the souls from the body is true death) not being as abrupt a process as it has been made out to be.
I believe “An Unpublished Manuscript on Purgatory” reconciles best the Church’s teaching of dying in mortal sin and hell.You do go to hell, but by God’s mercy it’s only temporary, it becomes a hellish Purgatory.
What I mean is that there are lower levels of Purgatory that are very close to Hell.That would be nice but unfortunately this is an heretical doctrihe. Those who go to Hell cannot be saved anymore. Even Saint Faustina is very clear about this, not to mention the Magisterium itself. I would like it very much if the damned had another chance but… Unfortunately it’s not a tenable doctrine.