Mortal sin, death, repentance and salvation

[Zealot]

But know this ye, that if the goodman of the house knew at what hour the thief would come, he would certainly watch, and would not suffer his house to be broken open.
Wherefore be you also ready, because at what hour you know not the Son of man will come.
Matthew 24: 43-44

To accuse God of evil is the highest blasphemy and is a sin against the Holy Spirit. I will pray for you because it takes a great miracle for blasphemers to repent. Almost all of them die in their sin.

 

[fhansen]

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.” For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

Notice that the Church places quotes around the word “predestination” here in the catechism. Apparently she’s not at all comfortable with the term in the strict sense, in light of her understanding of the role of man’s will.

And, as a separate question, can anything even truly be pre-determined or pre-destined or fore-known by one to whom “all moments of time are present in their immediacy” anyway?

 

[Robert1111]

To accuse God of evil

Then you really can’t understand what you read and what other people write.

I haven’t accused God of evil simply because i never believed that he acts like you said.

The quote from the Gospel in your post doesn’t have just a single interpretation

 

[Robert1111]

@Zealot

For example, many believe that Jesus in that paragraph was talking about final judgment, not the particular judgment.

There is literally no teaching in the Depositum Fidei stating that God is out to get us and plays “GOTCHA!” With our souls.

You can believe that, i believe, like many saints, that it’s just a gross misrepresentation of God and an actual offense against him.

 

[Zealot]

You have said you would reject God if He does these things. He does those things. When you learned this you blasphemed and cursed. You do not judge God. He does as He wills. I will say nothing more to you. We must not associate witj blasphemers.

 

[Robert1111]

You have said you would reject God if He does these things. He does those things.

Again, the Church doesn’t teach it, so i’m not required to believe that. If you are so full of arrogance that you can’t even tell the difference from an opinion and a teaching then there is really no point to continue.

 

[Robert1111]

I will say nothing more to you.

I hope so. I have already had enough of your arrogance.

 

[Robert1111]

@Zealot

By the way, feel free to show me an official teaching where it is declared that some people are simply passed over and God plays gotcha with our souls and i will ponder that.

If you can’t find it, well, you can draw your own conclusions about your intellectual dishonesty when you stated, as if it was a matter of fact, “God does these things”.

 

[fhansen]

You are asked to believe in such a God and you risk eternal damnation to deny Him.

Not to get in the middle of this-I’m sure everyone means well and is sincere about their beliefs- but just for the record, Catholics are taught that God predestines no one to hell, and is never the cause or author of evil. Such a God would not be worth spending eternity with so God’s sovereignty vs man’s will becomes a valid and easily controversial question in this matter.

 

[Robert1111]

Not to get in the middle of this-I’m sure everyone means well and is sincere about their beliefs- but just for the record, Catholics are taught that God predestines no one to hell, and is never the cause or author of evil. Such a God would not be worth spending eternity with so God’s sovereignty vs man’s will becomes a valid and easily controversial question.

Exactly. We can have a more benigne outlook on predestination. And i’ll say it once again, I firmly believe that Hell is NOT empty, unfortunately, but we can certainly have different opinions about HOW people end up there.

I recognize that the hard predestinarian perspective is allowed by the Church (even if i find absolutely and utterly abhorrent with every inch of my being) but those who hold this view HAVE to recognize that the Church also allows the more benigne interpretation. Otherwise they are the ones who depart form the Church.

 

[Robert1111]

Depart from the Church, not “form” (I made too much edits so i can’t edit my posts anymore ).

 

[Robert1111]

@Latin

I also see that you are a universalist because you can’t (just like me) reconcile the idea of efficacious and sufficient Grace as described by the thomists with God’s love.

You wrote

The weakness in Thomism; God is responsible for those who are goes to hell because He did not predestined them to heaven. – God provides the right (efficacious) grace, but provides it only for some to
His elect and the rest is doomed.

And i agree with this, even though i’m not a universalist. But your reasoning is 100% spot on. Also, what you wrote here is exactly the reason why if i choose to be a thomist i would necessarily have to be a universalist.

 

[Vico]

…
So you have either been dishonest or you simply don’t know how Saint Thomas worked.

Not being dishonest. I did not quote the entire thing, so see the other post. But the key idea is:

Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory.

The use of grace foreknown by God is not the cause of conferring grace, except after the manner of a final cause; as was explained above.

 

[Robert1111]

Not being dishonest. I did not quote the entire thing

Nope, you quoted that part as if it was Thomas opinion when the fact is that he believe exactly the opposite.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Not being dishonest. I did not quote the entire thing

Nope, you quoted that part as if it was Thomas opinion when the fact is that he believe exactly the opposite.

It was not my intention to mislead. I posted the wrong quote.

 

[Robert1111]

Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory

Which is to say that he gives to the elect all the graces they need to reach salvation SO that they will merit Glory. And the reprobates are left in the dust for no other reason than God’s will. Since you try to muddle the water, let me be more clear once again:

Long story short:

1. Summa Theologiae, First Part, Article 3, reply to objection 1

“God loves all men and all creatures, inasmuch as He wishes them all some good; but He does not wish every good to them all. So far, therefore, as He does not wish this particular good—namely, eternal life- He is said to hate or reprobated them”.

1. Summa Theologiae, First Part, Question 23, Article 5, reply to objection 3

“Why He chooses some for glory and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will”.

1. Summa Theologiae, First Part, Question 23, Article 3, Reply to objection 2

“ Guilt proceeds from the free-will of the person who is reprobated and deserted by grace”

1. Summa Theologiae, First Part, Article 3, reply to objection 3

“ANYONE reprobated by God CANNOT acquire grace”.

1. Summa Theologiae, First Part, Question 23, Article 3, Reply to objection 2

“Reprobation, however, is not the cause of what is in the present—namely, sin; but it is the cause of abandonment by God. IT IS THE CAUSE, however, of what is assigned in the future—namely, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT”.

It couldn’t be any clearer

1. God creates someone whose salvation he doesn’t desire (as we all know, salvation and eternal life are exactly the same).
2. He doesn’t desire the salvation of this person NOT because he foresaw that this person will be unrepentant until the end, but for the sole reason that he didn’t want to save him/her.

3 and 4. Since this person is reprobated he will not receive Grace (*i should make an addendum on this point).

1. Since this person doesn’t receive Grace he or she will commit mortal sin and die in that state, thus meriting eternal punishment in Hell.

*Since Banez was aware of the fact that, after the fall, if man is literally deserted by Grace he would have no responsibility for his sins, we have the thomistic “sufficient grace”, a Grace designed to make the reprobate accountable for his sins despite said Grace having no power to save him. Sufficient Grace is a mere potency, if you receive it you “””””can””””” do good, but before this bare potency can be reduced to action, another and different divine help must be received, namely efficacious Grace.

 

[Robert1111]

It was not my intention to mislead. I posted the wrong quote.

No problem then.

 

[Zealot]

This man is not saying that God does not predestine people to death but rather he is denying the particular judgement. He is claiming that after death all men recieve one last chance to repent, when it is a dogma that after death men go immediately to their judgement. Thus it is also the majority opinion of the Saints, the Doctors, and the Theologians that such an event whereby a man is given some final grace in the instant before death is a total unknown and if it exists is very rare indeed. To say that condemning the wicked in their sins is the work of evil and to claim to have no worship or love for such a God is 1) schismatic and 2) blasphemous.

It is utterly foolish to believe that all men receive a final unknown grace in the instant before death whereby they are given “one last chance” to repent. This would fly in the face of all theologians and Doctors and Saints. It would also mean one believes our Lord was speaking frivolously when he warned us that men are taken on their sin. Therefore it is so imprudent to believe this as to come near sin.

Much worse is what has been done here. It is absolutely heretical and blasphemous and schismatic to say the Saints and Doctors and Theologians worshipped an “evil God” or that if their opinion was correct that one will refuse tp worship God. This man has put his soul in eternal danger for speaking so horribly.

 

[Robert1111]

He is claiming that after death all men recieve one last chance to repent, when it is a dogma that after death men go immediately to their judgement

All of this, after i have written at least 10 times that the last chance, if it happens, is before death because death seals your destiny forever.

Congratulation for having given another glaring example of a very bright IQ.
Or maybe you are just disgustingly dishonest. Take your pick.

This man is not saying that God does not predestine people to death but rather he is denying the particular judgement

Completely false. I believe in a crowded Hell so you are simply lying. What a sad character you are.

after death men go immediately to their judgement.

Yeah, but we don’t know the process leading to death. The Church doesn’t know it.

Thus it is also the majority opinion of the Saints, the Doctors, and the Theologians that such an event whereby a man is given some final grace in the instant before death is a total unknown and if it exists is very rare indeed.

You see that you really don’t know what you are talking about? First, you claim that i say that men can repent after death, which has always been denied by me, then you talk about final Grace in the instant before death thus showing that the bit about repenting after death which you said was my opinion was just to slander me.

Really a pitiful and sad zealot.

To say that condemning the wicked in their sins is the work of evil and to claim to have no worship or love for such a God is 1) schismatic and 2) blasphemous.

I’ve sad that setting men up for failure by playing gotcha with them would be evil. I’ve said that reprobating some men without consideration of their foreseen demerits, thus creating some people who are simply hell bound from the start without them having a say in the matter, would be evil.

Which is why i don’t believe that God would do this. Because i would never dare to say that God can do evil.

 

[Robert1111]

It is utterly foolish to believe that all men receive a final unknown grace in the instant before death whereby they are given “one last chance” to repent. This would fly in the face of all theologians and Doctors and Saints.

No, Saint Faustina taught this, Padre Pio taught this and even other saints.

“If the greatest sinner should repent at the moment of his death, and draw his last breath in an act of love, neither the many graces he had abused, nor the multiplied crimes he had committed, would stand in his way. Our Lord would see nothing, count nothing, but the sinner’s last prayer, and without delay He would receive him into the arms of His mercy.” (Saint Therese of Lisieux)

What you said is false.

We don’t know for sure if that happens but it is certainly possible, thus we can at least hope. Just like it’s possible to believe, like Fr.Most does, that those who go to Hell are simply those who would have been utterly unrepentant until the end and would have squandered even the last Grace and would have willingly chosen to remain unrepentant and die in final impenitence.

It would also mean one believes our Lord was speaking frivolously when he warned us that men are taken on their sin

Many interpret those words as speaking about the universal judgment. It isn’t universally accepted that he was talking about individual particular judgments, by any means.

And many theologians and doctor, even when they didn’t speculate about a final Grace, said that it is highly tenable the belief that God, in his mercy, takes a man’s life when he is in his best state. In other words, the belief that God is not some spiteful cosmic goblin who is out there to wait that the good family man who lived in the state of Grace for 40 years steps out of the line only to freeze him in his sin and condemn him to eternal torture, is certainly tenable.

Much worse is what has been done here. It is absolutely heretical and blasphemous and schismatic to say the Saints and Doctors and Theologians worshipped an “evil God” or that if their opinion was correct that one will refuse tp worship God.

The saints and the doctor of the Church are not infallible. Even those whom i agree with, of course, so i’m not using this only to disprove your argument.