Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[AnneTeresa]

That’s the end result of a habit of mortal sin, but it’s not the starting place. Most people start out in mortal sin by saying to themselves, “Could God have really meant this?” and then going against the teaching, not to deliberately offend God, but because in their personal opinion, they don’t think God could possibly be offended by it (or they decide that there would be something wrong with a God who is offended by these things).

This happens for each and every one of the Ten Commandments.

How can God be a jealous God? Jealousy is a sin. Therefore, God cannot possibly mind, if I keep idols in my home and rub their heads for good luck.

How could God possibly mind if I say a swear word when I hit my thumb with a hammer? If I say “Oh, God!” when I am startled, how can God be offended by that, if it was just a nervous reaction?

Does God really need me to be at Mass every single Sunday? Why does He care whether I sleep in or not?

God could not have possibly meant that I have to honour my parents - He knows how badly they treat me, and how unfair they are - they make me go to bed at midnight, and they give me nothing but meat and vegetables to eat! And they took my phone away when I failed Math last semester. God understands my problems, and isn’t going to mind that I sass my Mom and Dad all the time, because they have it coming to them.

When God said “thou shalt not kill” He didn’t mean that I couldn’t take my sister to have an abortion - her mental health was at risk, after all - our Dad would have yelled at her if he had found out she was pregnant.

If you love someone deeply, it’s okay to sleep with them even if you are not married to them - God couldn’t possibly mind that, because God created love, and God is love. (Of course, if she gets pregnant, I’m outta there - I have to finish school before I start having kids.)

Things in stores don’t really belong to anyone, yet, so it’s not really “stealing” if you take stuff from a store without paying for it. Besides, God understands that I needed that new video game.

Everybody was saying that about him, so I just passed it on. How was I to know it wasn’t really true? God doesn’t expect me to double check my facts every time I open my mouth - does He?

When I tell my girlfriend, why can’t you be more like Jeff’s girlfriend, I’m trying to improve her - really, it’s for her own good. It’s not that I’m jealous of Jeff, or want his girlfriend instead of mine. Why didn’t God give me a perfect girlfriend like Jeff’s girlfriend?

They have better cows next door, too … why can’t our cows be like their cows? God is so unfair to me …

Are you saying these things are mortal sins, or that they are venial sins that down to road could become mortal? Because I don’t see all of these as having grave matter involved. For example, there’s a different between stealing a pack of gum (not grave) and cheating stockholders out of thousands of dollars (grave).

 

[jmcrae]

Are you saying these things are mortal sins, or that they are venial sins that down to road could become mortal? Because I don’t see all of these as having grave matter involved. For example, there’s a different between stealing a pack of gum (not grave) and cheating stockholders out of thousands of dollars (grave).

Stealing a pack of gum is not “grave” but it bespeaks a habit of not thinking of others - a lack of Christlike love - if, when you steal a pack of gum, it doesn’t agonize you to think of the poor stock boy who has to figure out what happened to it, and explain to his boss where it went (and possibly lose his job on suspicion that he stole it) then the groundwork is certainly laid for worse things to come.

In the example I gave, though, the person is stealing a thousand-dollar item; not something worth only a couple of dollars.

 

[Pug]

Thanks for the response! I wish the Church would be clearer on this issue. Sometimes I feel that the CC is just wrong about certain things…let’s face it, it has happened a time or 2, and I’m not yet at the point of complete submission to every single thing it has to say. I think this is going to be a journey for me and one I may never complete. That is where I struggle. If I honestly believe the church to be wrong, how can I be mortally sinning if I do what I think is right? I’m not deliberately going against God’s law, it’s just that my understanding of God’s law is different than that of the Church. I am still doing my best to be informed and to be obedient to God. I get very frustrated with the legalism of it all.

It is okay if your human understanding is not quite up to the task of knowing God’s mind and ways and truths! Also, it is not legalism to submit to God and what he reveals about himself, because he is God, so there is absolutely no reason to trust your version of things over and against his. You really can trust him, even when you don’t fully understand, which will be often.

I wonder, though, if it might help you to spend some time thinking through the various truths about how God revealed himself to us and how this information/Revelation is reliably passed down to us nowadays, and interpreted. It is worth the effort to spend time on this. Then you will be more secure in your understanding of the role the Church, so your confidence in her authority is built up. Topics to look at are things like the deposit of faith or the Magisterium or transmission of Divine Revelation.

A Catholic can be confident and trust in those things that are taught by the Church as being part of the faith (also check out CCC 892 about religious assent). Then even if your mind doesn’t get whichever teaching, your conscience will tell you to follow that teaching, not blindly, but because you trust God and his revelation. You will understand that you safely follow the guidance that God has provided.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

It is okay if your human understanding is not quite up to the task of knowing God’s mind and ways and truths! Also, it is not legalism to submit to God and what he reveals about himself, because he is God, so there is absolutely no reason to trust your version of things over and against his. You really can trust him, even when you don’t fully understand, which will be often.

I wonder, though, if it might help you to spend some time thinking through the various truths about how God revealed himself to us and how this information/Revelation is reliably passed down to us nowadays, and interpreted. It is worth the effort to spend time on this. Then you will be more secure in your understanding of the role the Church, so your confidence in her authority is built up. Topics to look at are things like the deposit of faith or the Magisterium or transmission of Divine Revelation.

A Catholic can be confident and trust in those things that are taught by the Church as being part of the faith (also check out CCC 892 about religious assent). Then even if your mind doesn’t get whichever teaching, your conscience will tell you to follow that teaching, not blindly, but because you trust God and his revelation. You will understand that you safely follow the guidance that God has provided.

Thank you, I will look into this. I am trying to be a good little Catholic and trust the Church in her authority, but it’s really hard for me, especially since I’m sort of a smartypants

When I disagree with something the Church teaches, I usually try to follow it anyway, but it’s easy for me to fall off the wagon or to justify it to myself since it may not go against my conscience at all…sometimes even the opposite, in which case, I follow my own conscience (which I think is Church teaching?)!!! I know that the formation of conscience is a lifelong process, but in all honesty, what is a lifetime? For some, it’s 100 years and for some, it’s 40. I may not have that kind of time

I always feel like I’m in mortal sin lately because of this…

 

[Thoughtfulone]

You do not have to “set out to offend God in a serious way and just not care”…one does not need the “intention to offend God in a serious way”…one does this whenever one “for whatever reason” chooses to do something that is a grave matter with full knowledge and complete consent.

For certain – Catholics know something IS grave matter…when the Catholic Church teaches that it is. (and of course when they know that such is the teaching…) Such is the main way of knowing.

And yes while there “can” be things that perhaps mitigate the guilt of a particular person even if they have “heard the teaching”…

I would caution anyone who is Catholic and thinks “well I disagree…so I do not have full knowledge”…to assume that they do are not gravely culpable…

We are not at liberty “as Catholics” to set aside the teachings of the Church…

We are as Catholics to conform ourselves to these teachings…

We need to “inform our conscience” with the teachings of the Church…

Catechism:

II. The Formation of Conscience

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. the education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. the education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path,54 we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.55

---

As Christians…

We hand ourselves over in Baptism in the “obedience of Faith” as Paul calls it…and we live the “obedience to the Truth” as Peter puts it.

We make that Great YES! (and let us renew it often!)

(If ever I had found that I had some feelings or thoughts to the contrary…they must fall…before the truth…)

We are to of course accept the teachings of the Church…it is Faith. Or in certain other things a at least give “religious submission of mind and will”…

But it is “Faith seeking understanding”…

…we may not “understand” fully …or be able to fully “feel it”…but one has Faith etc.

It is Faith…seeking understanding.

One then seeks to understand the whys…and wherefores… if one can…

Also we are to “renew our minds” as Paul tells us.

I propose prayerful the reading of the following two from Pope Benedict XVI:

Read them fully and carefully --they start out as if they have nothing to do with this…but read em to the end.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060108_battesimo_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

May the grace of Christ the King be with you!

Thank you I’ll check it out!

 

[Pug]

Thank you, I will look into this. I am trying to be a good little Catholic and trust the Church in her authority, but it’s really hard for me, especially since I’m sort of a smartypants

When I disagree with something the Church teaches, I usually try to follow it anyway, but it’s easy for me to fall off the wagon or to justify it to myself since it may not go against my conscience at all…sometimes even the opposite, in which case, I follow my own conscience (which I think is Church teaching?)!!! I know that the formation of conscience is a lifelong process, but in all honesty, what is a lifetime? For some, it’s 100 years and for some, it’s 40. I may not have that kind of time

I always feel like I’m in mortal sin lately because of this…

Feeling like you are in mortal sin all the time is not fun. :hug3:I know, it will take time to take care of this, and I know we don’t live long, but you are worth the time! If you don’t seem to have enough time from your perspective, remember, God is watching lovingly over you. What time you do have is enough. Be patient. I know we never seem to get where we want to be spiritually in the time frame that we want, but God’s time frame is not our time frame. Just spend a few minutes here and there. Use the moments you do have.

It sounds to me like you are saying that when you do what you call “follow my own conscience” you end up feeling like you did the wrong thing, since you end up feeling like you are in mortal sin. There are several reasons you could “feel like I’m in mortal sin”. It could be that you are not following your true conscience, so your actual, real conscience is complaining to you over time about that, and it is the source of your feeling. Sometimes we have a problem with confusing our real conscience with things like the norms of our society or with rules that we were raised with. Our mind can lever strong pressure on us to follow these things, even though they are not our conscience.

What do you think is causing you to feel you are in mortal sin? Why is it happening?

 

[losh14]

CCC 1857 says

What does the term “full knowledge” mean? Also, for example, since pornography is said to be a “grave sin”, how could the viewer of pornography not commit a mortal sin? Is there some way that he might not have “full knowledge”?

The severity of masturbation can be mitigated by force of habit - ie, you didn’t know it was grave matter, now you do know, but you’re having trouble stopping because it’s become a normative behavior or a means for you to deal with stress. You’re still supposed to seek treatment for it or otherwise attempt to stop. But we recognize addiction as a mental illness that removes some of your self-control. It’s not to be revelled in, ie “I’m addicted, so it’s not a sin” but consider that telling an alcoholic not to get drunk is easier said than done, and nearly impossible to do under his or her own willpower alone.

Where pornorgraphy comes in, well, that’s harder to say there’s not full knowledge. Maybe it would have to do with the nature of the material. I think everyone can say that something definitively is pornography, but we may not agree on which point it isn’t anymore. Swimsuit calendars? Nude paintings? What about paraphilia - an excessive interest in some article of fashion that generally people don’t find to be sexual. I’d think anything that provokes a certain response should be verboten to the individual who experiences it.

 

[Bookcat]

A Catholic can be confident and trust in those things that are taught by the Church as being part of the faith (also check out CCC 892 about religious assent). Then even if your mind doesn’t get whichever teaching, your conscience will tell you to follow that teaching, not blindly, but because you trust God and his revelation. You will understand that you safely follow the guidance that God has provided.

Right.

Some things are “obedience of Faith” …other things are “religious submission of intellect and will”.

It is explained in Lumen Gentium of Vatican II.

Also one can find it summerized in Canon Law …this is not to be “legalistic” of course for every body or community needs laws…and Canon Law is of course all theologically shot through.

But it is worded here of course in a “canon law way” and of course each aspect could be explained further… But it is a good summary. Note that each word is important. One should not say…assume they are heretics or something just due to some doubts tempting them or because they do not “understand” something. It is Faith. That YES! (see other post I made in this thread) …and then “one seeks to understand”. Faith seeking understanding…cause as you note well…one believes Christ…one trusts his Church etc…

(I have more to say after the quotes…)

Here are the some particular parts:

Can. 748 §1. All persons are bound to seek the truth in those things which regard God and his Church and by virtue of divine law are bound by the obligation and possess the right of embracing and observing the truth which they have come to know.

§2. No one is ever permitted to coerce persons to embrace the Catholic faith against their conscience.

Can. 750 §1. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them.

§2. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P2H.HTM

When I entered full communion with the Catholic Church (in 1989)…I gave my YES! (as Pope Benedict XVI explains so well in my link above) …of course if I had not accepted say…the teaching on abortion or birth control (which have been the teaching since the Early Church…) etc…I would not have been able to do so…would not have been able to become Catholic and receive Holy Communion etc…

but this is different from “not understanding” but still “having Faith!” (and saying yes! to the teachings…all of them) and handing oneself over in the obedience of Faith.

I did not understand all possible matters of the Faith and Morals at the time of my becoming Catholic …(too much to know)…but I understood who Christ is and believed in the Authority of his Church…I handed myself over…I could seek to understand the rest down the road…

and such can take time…

But it is the great joy of Faith! That YES! …as even the early Christian Martyrs sealed with their blood.

and even the great intellectuals in the past …would write their works…give their opinions etc and end them in all seriousness with "but I submit all to the Church…if anything I have written is contrary to the Teaching of the Church I hereby reject it!..for they knew that even with their great minds…they were not to “be alone”…but with the Church…and that they could make a mistake …we can all not “get something” …or not “find our feelings” working right…or even make a mistake …

This is one reason I am very thankful for the Church Jesus knows what he is doing …

 

[losh14]

Thank you, I will look into this. I am trying to be a good little Catholic and trust the Church in her authority, but it’s really hard for me, especially since I’m sort of a smartypants.

I’m glad to hear you’re trying. We all struggle here, but the point of struggling is that you’re not lost so long as you struggle in the right direction. I tried following my own justifications and understanding of morality apart from the Church, and it led to nothing but heartache, guilt and emotional burdens.

When I disagree with something the Church teaches, I usually try to follow it anyway, but it’s easy for me to fall off the wagon or to justify it to myself since it may not go against my conscience at all

It’s not easy being a Christian, is it? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is the right one. As a dear friend says, “this is one of those character building moments, which means it sucks until it’s over and then you’re glad you did what you did and didn’t do what you didn’t do.”

I know that the formation of conscience is a lifelong process, but in all honesty, what is a lifetime?

A lifetime is what little time we have to love Him as much as we can.

I always feel like I’m in mortal sin lately because of this…

Then go to confession and talk, honestly, about what burdens you. His Healing ministry still lives on.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Feeling like you are in mortal sin all the time is not fun. :hug3:I know, it will take time to take care of this, and I know we don’t live long, but you are worth the time! If you don’t seem to have enough time from your perspective, remember, God is watching lovingly over you. What time you do have is enough. Be patient. I know we never seem to get where we want to be spiritually in the time frame that we want, but God’s time frame is not our time frame. Just spend a few minutes here and there. Use the moments you do have.

It sounds to me like you are saying that when you do what you call “follow my own conscience” you end up feeling like you did the wrong thing, since you end up feeling like you are in mortal sin. There are several reasons you could “feel like I’m in mortal sin”. It could be that you are not following your true conscience, so your actual, real conscience is complaining to you over time about that, and it is the source of your feeling. Sometimes we have a problem with confusing our real conscience with things like the norms of our society or with rules that we were raised with. Our mind can lever strong pressure on us to follow these things, even though they are not our conscience.

What do you think is causing you to feel you are in mortal sin? Why is it happening?

Thank you so much for your kindness. It really does mean a lot!

I guess what it boils down to is a sort of crisis of faith. See, I was born and raised Catholic- Catholic grade school, high school, all the sacraments including Confirmation and even married in the Vatican. Well, in all this time, I was not taught everything about the Church, especially about things like the authority of the Church.

When I went to my adult Confirmation class, we were taught by the priest there about the “test of conscience”. He said that if you know the CC’s position on something (say, ABC), masturbation, etc.), and, after sufficient study and full reflection and even prayer, if you STILL disagree in your heart with church teaching, then you must follow your conscience and that God does not punish people for doing this, because they are following their conscience and have put their best effort into doing the right thing. I was also under the impression that the only time the CC was infallible was when the Pope spoke Ex-Cathedra. To tell the truth, I didn’t even believe in Hell as the CC understands it (I’m not sure I do even now).

Well, about 6 months ago, I find this site and I’m being told that unless I believe every single doctrine of the CC, I’m not even a Catholic. I’m being told that even if my conscience tells me something different, I am supposed to just go along with whatever the Church says. I’m being told that the CC is infallible on everything regarding faith and morals, which I have trouble with.

The catechism in one place tells me I need to submit my will to Church authority and then in another place tells me that I MUST follow my conscience and that it is where God speaks to every man in his heart.

I’m being told that I don’t even have to do anything to commit a mortal sin, that if one Sunday I decide not to go to mass and then realize “no, that’s wrong” and go anyway, that I’m still in mortal sin because I decided at one point not to go, so even though I ended up DOING the right thing, I’m still going to Hell.

I just feel like I’ve been told so many things by so many different people (many of them priests!) and it seems very vague and arbitrary to me. What one person says is a mortal sin, another person says no way. Even the Catechism seems contradictory sometimes. I just feel really bogged down in a lot of legalism and jargon and wordplay and I don’t feel like I can just love God and try to be a good person because of all these technicalities.

Ugh

 

[AnneTeresa]

I feel the same way you do–my experience is very similar. It’s like there are two different ways of being catholic. Which is correct? Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. I recently decided to listen to my own priest since I was getting so confused by what people were saying here at CAF and what I was hearing in person. I’m still confused and question if I’m doing the right thing. Let me know if you figure it out!

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you so much for your kindness. It really does mean a lot!

I guess what it boils down to is a sort of crisis of faith. See, I was born and raised Catholic- Catholic grade school, high school, all the sacraments including Confirmation and even married in the Vatican. Well, in all this time, I was not taught everything about the Church, especially about things like the authority of the Church.

One is of course…not responsible “at that time” for what they did not honestly know…where not honestly taught…but as we become an adult etc…we need to seek to form our conscience…which includes education with the teachings of the Church…conforming our lives to these teachings…seeking the “renewal of the mind”…bringing all things to Christ…those which are contrary to what his Church teaches…we reject etc…one gives one’s YES to Christ …for he has the words of eternal life. One finds that HE loves you…and that true life is in him…and thus in his Church…of course if one looks back at each persons “road” there can be falls or misunderstandings…or wrong turns along the way…and we may not understand everything right away…

When I went to my adult Confirmation class, we were taught by the priest there about the “test of conscience”. He said that if you know the CC’s position on something (say, ABC), masturbation, etc.), and, after sufficient study and full reflection and even prayer, if you STILL disagree in your heart with church teaching, then you must follow your conscience and that God does not punish people for doing this, because they are following their conscience and have put their best effort into doing the right thing. I was also under the impression that the only time the CC was infallible was when the Pope spoke Ex-Cathedra. To tell the truth, I didn’t even believe in Hell as the CC understands it (I’m not sure I do even now).

Yes …if one is taught partial truths or perhaps due to age etc one undertands partial truths…that too goes into things. But thankfully we have more than one source in the Church…and especially the Catechism…to clear up some of our misunderstandings! Thanks be to God that we do!..and this too may take some time to replace older ideas with the teachings of the Church…but as we encounter or study…when we find that something is different than what we thought…and that the source is as the Church understands or teaches things…then we can work on that “renewal of the mind”…What is important of course is to always have that
“readiness to change”…to renew ones mind in Christ and his Church…if we honestly thought the Church taught something else…and did not know to find out more…God will take that into account…for we did not even know we should think or do otherwise! But as we find out what the Church teaches…then our conscience and our way of life and thinking is renewed…is formed according to Christ…for we seek to follow him…with that “readiness to change”…praying for grace and giving our YES!

Well, about 6 months ago, I find this site and I’m being told that unless I believe every single doctrine of the CC, I’m not even a Catholic.

If you did not know better…of course not! But yes as Catholics we are to hold and teach what the Catholic Church professes. We hand ourselves over in the “obedience of Faith” as Paul puts it…or as Peter says…we are “obedient to the truth”…some things of course are to be “believed with the obedience of Faith”…other things must be given “religious submission of mind and will”…these are the things in particular we need to conform ourselves too. But then after these things…one finds other things…(with various degrees of teaching that are less than the above) and of course there are various “schools of theology” that are within “orthodox teaching” and these are not things one needs to embrace…in fact they can differ with each other in various opinions etc…one need not “embrace opinions” of some theologian etc if one thinks they are wrong…

but again…see my posts above. One gives ones YES!..and then it is “faith seeking understanding”…one may not understand everything right way. Basically it is a profession “I believe Jesus and thus I believe what ever his Church actually teaches…and I reject all that the Church rejects…I hand myself over to him…he is true life…” and then one seeks to understand and form oneself in that teaching./COLOR]

I’m being told that even if my conscience tells me something different, I am supposed to just go along with whatever the Church says. I’m being told that the CC is infallible on everything regarding faith and morals, which I have trouble with.

The Catholic Church is not teaching that every teaching is infallible! but as Catholics we do need to give the obedience of faith to various teachings…and the “religious submission of mind and will” to certain other teachings…(see above)…yes this is part of our great YES!..Now of course one not yet “know” the teaching etc…but yes we trust God. It is his Church…

This post is important and touches on this: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7294160&postcount=52

 

[Bookcat]

The catechism in one place tells me I need to submit my will to Church authority and then in another place tells me that I MUST follow my conscience and that it is where God speaks to every man in his heart.

One is to FORM ones conscience …and foremost in this formation one needs to embrace the Catholic Faith as noted above…one can not say "well the Church teaches that abortion is wrong …but my conscience says otherwise…so I will abort my child…or the Church teaches that one is not to murder other innocents…but my conscience says that Jews are a tainted race so I will join the Nazi’s and follow my conscience…(not that you say these of course)…as Catholics we are to form our consciences and the teachings of the Church are a large part of that formation…

I’m being told that I don’t even have to do anything to commit a mortal sin, that if one Sunday I decide not to go to mass and then realize “no, that’s wrong” and go anyway, that I’m still in mortal sin because I decided at one point not to go, so even though I ended up DOING the right thing, I’m still going to Hell.

One is not “going to hell” if one repents with perfect contrition (which includes intention to confess as soon as possible) or is able to get to confession …before one dies! The Good Shepherd desires our salvation. But yes one can commit a mortal sin by choosing to not go to Mass on a Sunday with full knowledge and deliberate (and complete) consent…even if one later makes a new choice and goes…

I just feel like I’ve been told so many things by so many different people (many of them priests!) and it seems very vague and arbitrary to me. What one person says is a mortal sin, another person says no way. Even the Catechism seems contradictory sometimes. I just feel really bogged down in a lot of legalism and jargon and wordplay and I don’t feel like I can just love God and try to be a good person because of all these technicalities.

Yes one will find various things on this forum…and various backgrounds…some who have degrees in Theology and some who do not but who know very well Catholic Teaching or Theology…and some who have mistaken ideas. Even Priests can get things wrong. What is important is what the Church actually teaches and sound theology. The Catechism may seem contradictory…but further study will show it is not…
In addition to the Catechism…there is the Compendium of the Catechism it too is a great source. and is online.

and what may appear to be “legalism” and “wordplay” may be in some cases…or it may simply “seem to be” to one who has not studied the science involved. If one were to go study “biology” lots there will seem “odd” etc…but it is human language working at communicating reality.

Know that Jesus loves you…as does the Church and that HE is the reason why one seeks to find truth…and to conform ones life to it. In doing so…in him one finds true life.

Make sure you read this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7294932&postcount=17

 

[Bookcat]

I feel the same way you do–my experience is very similar. It’s like there are two different ways of being catholic. Which is correct? Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. I recently decided to listen to my own priest since I was getting so confused by what people were saying here at CAF and what I was hearing in person. I’m still confused and question if I’m doing the right thing. Let me know if you figure it out!

Which way???

The way the Catholic Church teaches.

On the one hand…one avoids

those views that are well lets say thinking they “are more Catholic than the Pope”…

and on the other one avoids the views that are contrary to the Teachings of the Church…

or the views of those who think they can just do what they want…(like support abortion!) etc

We profess the Catholic Faith …give our great YES to Christ in his Church.

(one is Catholic WITH the Pope…)

(the Catechism is a sure norm for this…a great source as is the Compendium)

Read these two:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060108_battesimo_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html

read em to the end…(they may not seem to fit at first…but keep reading)

 

[jmcrae]

When I went to my adult Confirmation class, we were taught by the priest there about the “test of conscience”. He said that if you know the CC’s position on something (say, ABC), masturbation, etc.), and, after sufficient study and full reflection and even prayer, if you STILL disagree in your heart with church teaching, then you must follow your conscience and that God does not punish people for doing this, because they are following their conscience and have put their best effort into doing the right thing. I was also under the impression that the only time the CC was infallible was when the Pope spoke Ex-Cathedra.

Okay - make sure you understand the difference between your conscience, your physical instincts, your sympathetic responses, and your personal opinions.

Do not confuse them - we can go to Hell for following our physical instincts (ex: sex outside of marriage); we can go to Hell for letting other people play on our sympathies (the big mean Church won’t let them sodomize one another; so unfair, after all they are “in love”); we can go to Hell for following the doctrines of Oprah when they conflict with those of the Church (because she’s popular, so she must be right).

Our conscience tells us what we know in our deepest being is correct - death is bad; life is good. Love is good; hatred is bad. Use things; not people.

We don’t always listen to our conscience, or agree with our conscience. Sometimes our conscience gets drowned out by the clamour of hormones, or the need to be popular, or at least “like other folks.”

Young girls are fitted with an instinct to be very modest, but this can be drowned out by popular culture and the “need” to look sexy, even at an age where the child doesn’t even know what the word “sexy” means - you see 13 year olds walking down the street half-naked, because “everybody’s doing it” (vicious circle - if all the girls are doing it, she has to do it, too, which means there’s no one not doing it, which means that the next girl has to do it, too) - her conscience didn’t tell her to do that; her need to “fit in” did.

The catechism in one place tells me I need to submit my will to Church authority and then in another place tells me that I MUST follow my conscience and that it is where God speaks to every man in his heart.

Perhaps you need to train your conscience, until it matches the teachings of God.

I’m being told that I don’t even have to do anything to commit a mortal sin, that if one Sunday I decide not to go to mass and then realize “no, that’s wrong” and go anyway, that I’m still in mortal sin because I decided at one point not to go, so even though I ended up DOING the right thing, I’m still going to Hell.

Who’s telling you that?

I don’t feel like I can just love God and try to be a good person because of all these technicalities.

If you were to follow the laws of the Church out of the love that you have for God, you would certainly be a good person - there would be no way out of it - in fact, you would be a Saint, which is a person who gets to go to Heaven.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Bookcat:
This is where my problems lie: Firstly, I honestly don’t believe I did anything wrong by changing my mind about going to Mass, and I can’t force my conscience into it even if I wanted to.

Secondly, I really have a hard time with infallibility and the idea that I should just check my own intellect and conscience at the door and just do whatever the Church says because of some idea that it is impossible for them to be wrong.

I wasn’t raised with these beliefs and I can’t just turn it on like a switch, so in the meantime, I guess I better either hope I’m right or hope for some miraculous change of heart and mind that will allow me to be contrite enough to squeak into Heaven.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Okay - make sure you understand the difference between your conscience, your physical instincts, your sympathetic responses, and your personal opinions.

Do not confuse them - we can go to Hell for following our physical instincts (ex: sex outside of marriage); we can go to Hell for letting other people play on our sympathies (the big mean Church won’t let them sodomize one another; so unfair, after all they are “in love”); we can go to Hell for following the doctrines of Oprah when they conflict with those of the Church (because she’s popular, so she must be right).

Our conscience tells us what we know in our deepest being is correct - death is bad; life is good. Love is good; hatred is bad. Use things; not people.

We don’t always listen to our conscience, or agree with our conscience. Sometimes our conscience gets drowned out by the clamour of hormones, or the need to be popular, or at least “like other folks.”

Young girls are fitted with an instinct to be very modest, but this can be drowned out by popular culture and the “need” to look sexy, even at an age where the child doesn’t even know what the word “sexy” means - you see 13 year olds walking down the street half-naked, because “everybody’s doing it” (vicious circle - if all the girls are doing it, she has to do it, too, which means there’s no one not doing it, which means that the next girl has to do it, too) - her conscience didn’t tell her to do that; her need to “fit in” did.

Perhaps you need to train your conscience, until it matches the teachings of God.

Who’s telling you that?

If you were to follow the laws of the Church out of the love that you have for God, you would certainly be a good person - there would be no way out of it - in fact, you would be a Saint, which is a person who gets to go to Heaven.

Well, with all the noise in the world, it’s a wonder anybody can distinguish conscience from desire, will or instinct!

BTW, Bookcat is the one telling me that deciding not to go to Mass and then going anyway is still a sin because I would have made the decision with full knowledge and consent even if I didn’t act on it…

It’s very hard to suddenly change your way of thinking when so much that I have been taught and loved about my Church seems to have been misguided or flat-out wrong.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I feel the same way you do–my experience is very similar. It’s like there are two different ways of being catholic. Which is correct? Maybe it’s somewhere in the middle. I recently decided to listen to my own priest since I was getting so confused by what people were saying here at CAF and what I was hearing in person. I’m still confused and question if I’m doing the right thing. Let me know if you figure it out!

Well, at least now I don’t feel so alone! May I ask how you expressed these feelings to your priest? I think I’m going to have to do the same thing.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, with all the noise in the world, it’s a wonder anybody can distinguish conscience from desire, will or instinct!

This is why the guidance of the Church is such a great gift to us - we are not left to try to figure these things out all by ourselves.

BTW, Bookcat is the one telling me that deciding not to go to Mass and then going anyway is still a sin because I would have made the decision with full knowledge and consent even if I didn’t act on it.

Jesus tells a parable of two brothers - their father tells them, “Go to work in the fields” - the first brother says, “I will not,” but later, changes his mind and goes to work in the fields. The second brother says, “yes, right away, sir,” but then allows himself to get distracted and fails to go. Jesus asks, Which of the brothers did his father’s will? They all answered, The first.

This is instructive, because what it teaches us is that our obedient actions are what God is interested in; not how we happen to feel about them at any given moment. In fact, I should think that it is more meritorious, that you didn’t feel like going to Mass, but you went anyway, in order to be obedient.

 

[Bookcat]

This is where my problems lie: Firstly, I honestly don’t believe I did anything wrong by changing my mind about going to Mass, and I can’t force my conscience into it even if I wanted to.

At the time you may not have had full knowledge or complete consent…so may not have committed any mortal sin.

Secondly, I really have a hard time with infallibility and the idea that I should just check my own intellect and conscience at the door and just do whatever the Church says because of some idea that it is impossible for them to be wrong.

Am I checking my intellect at the door when God something and I knowing it is God …say…ok I do not understand…but YOUR GOD so…I know your right. Ok! ??

I wasn’t raised with these beliefs and I can’t just turn it on like a switch, so in the meantime, I guess I better either hope I’m right or hope for some miraculous change of heart and mind that will allow me to be contrite enough to squeak into Heaven.

As Christians we give the Great YES!

How can one do this? If one can has these “feelings” or “thoughts” that run contrary to this??

Because one believes first in Jesus–trusts HIS word…that his Church is teaching in his Name and one believes his Church…one gives ones “I” to him …and one conforms oneself to him and to his Church…he said “he who hears you hears me”…

As Peter put it “obedience to the truth” (1 Peter 1:22). One must obeys the truth…one has the “obedience of Faith” as Paul put it…dispite what one may have felt or thought before…

(Even in centuries past great writers in writing theological works --great intellectuals etc would end their writings with…“but if anything I have written is contrary to the teachings of the Church I renounce what I have written”…which is like saying what I believed…or thought or felt…I now reject and what the Church believes I now choose to believe–they submitted everything to Christ…for even their great intellects…even the “beliefs” of their great intellects could be wrong…)

No matter what opinions one may be tempted to hold. One can simply reject them…reject all that is contrary to the teachings of the Church. Such is possible.

(it does not matter what I may want to believe…or naturally would be inclined to believe…I give up my beliefs for the great belief…for the great love of Christ…if I believe something…but I find out the Church teaches otherwise…well out the window it goes! For the Church knows better than my little head…)

This is the way of the Christian…we say yes to Jesus…and thus to all his Church teaches…

and thus “No” to all other things contrary…

As a Christian…

one renounces Satan and all his pomps…(see: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20060108_battesimo_en.html)

one renounces sin…

one renounces all errors…

ones great YES to Christ involves a lot of no’s …

but the YES is to HIM and thus to true life…

And so what???-- if something would be “naturally ones opinion”…??

Jesus said if we want to be his disciple* we must renounce even ourselves*…

Jesus’ call is a radical one…he even refers to “hating” things in comparison to following him…

“If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26 RSV CE)

He means this in the semintic way of teaching…(not that he wants us to hate our parents…etc) …but it is to express the radical nature of discipleship. And it does make things clear. This discipleship would include putting our own thoughts and beliefs to the sword…rejecting them…because we have met HIM …we trust HIM…we trust HIS Church about which he says “he who hears you hears me”…we trust …and give ourselves…just like in marriage…but more radically.

The YES to him in the Catholic Church is to be a YES to all the Church teaches…(in the various degrees…)

This YES is a choice…similar to Marriage…

in ones yes of marriage one says no to many things…and one must renounce various attractions…things that would draw one…

it does not matter if ones "thoughts say ""Wow I love this other guy better…or "hey why not run away with him?..or I deserve better so I am going with this guy…or ones “feelings” say “wow I am in love with this other guy…so it must be right!”…

In the YES of Marriage…one chooses to give oneself to that other person…and not any other… (of course one chooses God etc before ones spouse…Jesus was very clear on that)

So the YES we make to Christ is similar to this…

…but this YES is greater.

And as Paul tells us:

Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse in order that I may gain Christ (Phil 3:8)

Now…having said this…it may take time…and prayer…reading…asking questions…talking with persons who can assist…and grace etc…

The Catechumenate in the early Church could even take years… often three years or so…before the person was ready for Baptism. For that great full yes.

And it can take time for one to “understand” etc…for the “renewal of the mind” as Paul says…so have patience on the understanding part…

I propose though the “yes”.

One can though make that YES! and then it can be Faith “seeking understanding”.

See vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c3a1.htm#I

and as Paul put it …“we walk by faith, not by sight”…