Mortal Sin---What is "Full Knowledge"?

[Bookcat]

If you “fully consent” then you would not later end up at Mass. Action follows decision.

Again this is not the case. Not Catholic Moral Theology. It may be the case that a given person may not give full consent etc…but that is NOT the case …for in my example the person DID.

The very nature of Man…of human freedom…is such that a person does not HAVE to act on a decision.

 

[jmcrae]

I am afraid not. He certainly would not agree with you. If you would like to see…just give a call on Thursday.

Well. Jimmy thinks that gum-chewing at Mass does not violate the Eucharistic Fast, and that Friday penance has been abolished, so he isn’t right about everything - I’m okay with it if he also disagrees on this; he is no more of an expert than I am - he is only more famous than I am.

 

[jmcrae]

How does one make another an object of sexual pleasure except by thinking it?

So, thinking something, can in fact be sinful.

The person who is lusting is probably also thinking about having sex, but the sin consists in that they are thinking that the person is a sex object.

A person who wants to have sex with someone because he wants to express love to that person would not be “lusting” - and if he chose not to follow through, there would be no sin, there.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

Well. Jimmy thinks that gum-chewing at Mass does not violate the Eucharistic Fast, and that Friday penance has been abolished, so he isn’t right about everything - I’m okay with it if he also disagrees on this; he is no more of an expert than I am - he is only more famous than I am.

Do you have twenty years of professional apologetics experience? Or a post-grad philosophy degree? I mean sure, he’s not right about everything, but odds are he’s more of an expert than anyone on these forums.

 

[steve_b]

:
Originally Posted by steve b forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I would suggest the intention was not serious, since the power to go to mass was stronger than missing mass.

Bookcat:

You are not able to suggest such. Why? Cause it is laid out already…the person DID have full knowledge and complete consent. Such is established in my scenario. It is given.

So yes the person committed a mortal sin in thought.

But yes as I say again and again…it may be the case that a person may not have committed a mortal sin…just cause some thoughts come etc…does not mean the person consented etc…

*As I said, if the person goes to mass, their consent to miss mass (complete or otherwise) was not there. *

You are willing to accept the possibility that it is just a temptation not acted on. Focus on THAT, not the temptation not acted on.

 

[fbl9]

Again this is not the case. Not Catholic Moral Theology. It may be the case that a given person may not give full consent etc…but that is NOT the case …for in my example the person DID.

The very nature of Man…of human freedom…is such that a person does not HAVE to act on a decision.

opps wrong post.

 

[Bookcat]

The question I would like Bookcat to clarify is, what exactly is the difference between being severely tempted to sleep in on Sunday vs actually deciding to skip Mass and thereby committing a mortal sin? When the alarm goes off, if I say to myself, “Heck with it, I’m not going today,” but then on the first snooze I come to my senses and go, was that a temptation or a short-lived but real decision?

All sorts of thoughts, desires and attactions can happen without any sin. Such is the nature of temptation.

But if one with full knowledge and deliberate consent one chooses some grave matter…that is when there is a mortal sin.

Being “half -asleep” can be one way one does not have full knowledge etc…so it depends on if you were awake etc…

here this can help:

The classic stages of temptation when we are tempted are:

1. Suggestion (the evil is proposed to us in some way) this can be quite attractive …can be thoughts that happen, ideas etc.
2. Pleasure (a kind of automatic pleasure can happen from the suggestion) this pleasure can just happen…one is not “trying to have it” not wanting it…this is just a reaction.

3…then one either consents or does not consent.

(one can either consent fully and thus engage in things willingly …or not consent and perhaps thus grow in virtue…following Christ!)

Now it can often happen that one begins to “partially consent” but then rejects it and thus does not give full consent.

When one is tempted…

Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only “partial consent”:

If even though there was some instinctive pleasure …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)

(For example some thoughts come out of the blue just cause one happened to see an attractive person…and one does not want the thoughts but turns to God in Prayer or is horrified by them and turns to something else etc…no matter how much they come back…if one does not consent at all…there is no sin…but rather possibly growth in virtues)

If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)

If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial

Of course if one then gives in and gives full consent…then such can be mortal…remember…partial consent or half consent is not full consent…and thus not mortal.

 

[fbl9]

If you “fully consent” then you would not later end up at Mass. Action follows decision.

Having already deciding not to go to Mass does not mean that one will not repent of his former decision and attend Mass.
In the sleeping in example the person gave full consent by going back to sleep.

 

[Bookcat]

*As I said, if the person goes to mass, their consent to miss mass (complete or otherwise) was not there. *

This is not how Catholic Moral Theology would look at it…for in the case I mentioned …they HAVE full knowledge and full consent. LATER they made a new decision. Look If I decide to commit adultery…I have committed a mortal sin if it was done with full knowledge and complete consent…even if I repent before meet up with the girl.

 

[jmcrae]

*As I said, if the person goes to mass, their consent to miss mass (complete or otherwise) was not there. *

This is not how Catholic Moral Theology would look at it…for in the case I mentioned …they HAVE full knowledge and full consent. LATER they made a new decision. Look If I decide to commit adultery…I have committed a mortal sin if it was done with full knowledge and complete consent…even if I repent before meet up with the girl.

Fine, if that’s how you want it. You must be in the Confessional for an hour every week!

 

[Bookcat]

*As I said, if the person goes to mass, their consent to miss mass (complete or otherwise) was not there. *

You are willing to accept the possibility that it is just a temptation not acted on. Focus on THAT, not the temptation not acted on.

if the person did not give full consent to any temptation …and later went to Mass…yes there would be no mortal sin.

 

[Bookcat]

Fine, if that’s how you want it. You must be in the Confessional for an hour every week!

Not how I want it …this is how it is in the Church.

Your obviously misunderstanding what is meant here by full knowledge and full consent…

 

[Bookcat]

Fine, if that’s how you want it. You must be in the Confessional for an hour every week!

It has nothing really to do with me. Such is simply the case. (the first sentence…not the second!)

One does not confess temptations…(not that I have temptations to Miss Mass or murder )

We are talking about mortal sins here. Not temptations or non-sinful thoughts.

and one has mortal sins of thought …the same as with external mortal sins…one has to have grave matter AND full knowledge and complete consent.

 

[Bookcat]

Well. Jimmy thinks that gum-chewing at Mass does not violate the Eucharistic Fast, and that Friday penance has been abolished, so he isn’t right about everything - I’m okay with it if he also disagrees on this; he is no more of an expert than I am - he is only more famous than I am.

A…this is standard Catholic Moral Theology. And simply the definition of a mortal sin for that matter.

The other are his judgments or opinions …(not that they are not correct…but one could argue them and see evidence on both sides there).

 

[Bookcat]

In the sleeping in example the person gave full consent by going back to sleep.

Maybe…or maybe not They may not have been awake yet

 

[steve_b]

This is not how Catholic Moral Theology would look at it…for in the case I mentioned …they HAVE full knowledge and full consent. LATER they made a new decision. Look If I decide to commit adultery…I have committed a mortal sin if it was done with full knowledge and complete consent…even if I repent before meet up with the girl.

If one doesn’t act on the temptation, one hasn’t given full/complete consent to the temptation…

For example

I will miss mass today (Sunday)…uh no I won’t…uh yes I will…uh no I won’t… and I go to mass… wrasseling with the devil is what I’d call this. And the devil lost this round.

We’ll see what happens in round 2 and 3 and 4 …

All componants to a sin must be there for a sin to be a sin, mortal or venial.

 

[Bookcat]

Remember, the will occurs in the limbs and body; not in the mind.

Such is not how the nature of the will is understood.

In Catholic Teaching and Catholic Moral Theology the consent of the will is interior. It involves the intellect (knowing what one is choosing) and the will (giving full consent …or partial consent).

If one the acts externally upon ones decision…one choice…the body (other than the brain…of course the brain is already a involved with the internal choice)…that is the limbs etc carries out what is decided.

Sometimes ones decision can immediately involve external action…at other times it may not…or even one may repent of that decision.

A person can make any number of decisions and never act upon them…

or even actually make new decisions and act upon those instead.

In regards to mortal sin…one can commit a mortal sin without any external action. One can even choose an external action with full knowledge and full consent (say to murder someone or miss Sunday Mass) and commit internally already a mortal sin…and later make a new decision “not to miss…but to go”. The first decision was a mortal sin. The second is towards repentance…

This is very different from “tempting thoughts” coming…etc

 

[Bookcat]

If one doesn’t act on the temptation, one hasn’t given full/complete consent to the temptation…

Such is not the case. No external action is needed for internal consent. Ones internal consent of course is an action too by the way

If I decide to kill my wife…even if I repent before I do it…it is still a mortal sin if chosen with full knowledge and deliberate consent

For example

I will miss mass today (Sunday)…uh no I won’t…uh yes I will…uh no I won’t… and I go to mass… wrasseling with the devil is what I’d call this. And the devil lost this round.

Yes…as I said …if one does not give full consent to anything…it is not a mortal sin

we are not talking about temptation in my example

We’ll see what happens in round 2 and 3 and 4 …

All componants to a sin must be there for a sin to be a sin, mortal or venial.

ALL are there. (in my example) I said the person decided not to go to Mass…with full knowledge and deliberate consent. The choice was made. A mortal sin was committed. If he carried it to action than that mortal sin would be worse…for it was carried to action. If he repented and went to Mass…then that earlier mortal sin in his deciding not to go would still need to be confessed…

 

[Bookcat]

If one says the will occurs in the limbs and body; not in the mind…

Such is not how the nature of the will is understood.

In Catholic Teaching and Catholic Moral Theology the consent of the will is interior. It involves the intellect (knowing what one is choosing) and the will (giving full consent …or partial consent).

If one the acts externally upon ones decision…ones choice…then the body (other than the brain…of course the brain is already a involved with the internal choice)…that is the limbs etc carries out what is decided.

Sometimes ones decision can immediately involve external action…at other times it may not…or even one may repent of that decision.

A person can make any number of decisions and never act upon them…

or even actually make new decisions and act upon those instead.

In regards to mortal sin…one can commit a mortal sin without any external action. One can even choose an external action with full knowledge and full consent (say to murder someone or miss Sunday Mass) and commit internally already a mortal sin…and later make a new decision “not to miss…but to go”. The first decision was a mortal sin. The second is towards repentance…

This is very different from “tempting thoughts” coming…etc

 

[Bookcat]

Compendium of the Catechism -issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

---

One does not need to act externally. One needs “deliberate consent” (which is internal). Not external action…

One can sin mortally in ones thoughts, desires or words or deeds, or omissions.

Not just in ones exterior deeds.

And in choosing to do or omit something that is grave matter…one already commits a mortal sin when one has full knowledge and deliberate consent…though it is worse if one carries it to action.

“One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent.”

(not just when it is carried to action externally)

This is long standing moral theology…not something I am pulling from a hat

(important to read…particularly for those with scruples…forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7303655&postcount=122)