Mortal sin - why don't people use this arguement more?

[Lazerlike42]

I find in my own work that Hebrews 10:26-27 more or less sums up the doctrine of mortal sin pretty explicity, much better than 1 John 5:16-17. In fact, I think it makes 1 John 5:16-17 make much more sense. Why do I never hear anyone use this verse?

 

[Liberian]

Lazerlike42:

I find in my own work that Hebrews 10:26-27 more or less sums up the doctrine of mortal sin pretty explicity, much better than 1 John 5:16-17. In fact, I think it makes 1 John 5:16-17 make much more sense. Why do I never hear anyone use this verse?

Lazerlike,

I can’t speak for others, but the passage in Hebrews talks about how if somebody leaves there is no coming back. Mortal sin is not like that; if you commit a mortal sin, you can go to confession and get back into a state of grace. My interpretation of Hebrews is that it is talking about something else.

• Liberian

 

[Giver]

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offenses and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death.

Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person.

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Lazerlike42]

Giver:

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offenses and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death.

Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person.

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

When was the last time you committed a sin?

 

[Giver]

Lazerlike42:

When was the last time you committed a sin?

In order for someone to understand how anyone can live a sinless life the would need to first understand the following scriptures.

(John 14:26)
“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 16:4-10)”I did not tell you this from the outset, because I was with you; but now I am going to the one who sent me. Not one of you has asked, ‘Where are you going?’ Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgement; about sin: proved by their refusal to believe in me; proved by my going to the Father and your seeing me no more; About judgement”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
Giver
(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

 

[montanaman]

Giver:

In order for someone to understand how anyone can live a sinless life the would need to first understand the following scriptures.

(John 14:26)
“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 16:4-10)”I did not tell you this from the outset, because I was with you; but now I am going to the one who sent me. Not one of you has asked, ‘Where are you going?’ Yet you are sad at heart because I have told you this. Still, I must tell you the truth: it is for your own good that I am going because unless I go, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will show the world how wrong it was, about sin, and about who was in the right, and about judgement; about sin: proved by their refusal to believe in me; proved by my going to the Father and your seeing me no more; About judgement”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”
Giver
(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

That didn’t asnwer the question.

 

[Tom]

Giver:

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offenses and are not deliberate or thought out.

Error, you cannot commit a sin accidentally, if not deliberate or thought out it isn’t a sin.

 

[Tom]

Giver:

Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person.

Doubletalk, first you say they “will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit”; then you go on to say “if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person. Which is it? If he “will not” then he will not, the problem with your theology is that it implies that if you are led by the Holy Spirit you lose your free will somehow. This is certainly not true and absolutely goes against the Bible.

 

[Tom]

Giver:

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” .

The key word here are “entangled by it a second time and mastered”, meaning they are lost and do not seek God.

 

[Tom]

Giver:

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.” .

“if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.” Again in context please, they are speaking of total abandonment of God, not simply sinning, but a total rejection. And no, a sin is NOT a total abandonment of God.

 

[Tom]

Giver:

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ.

Absolutely, we must “try”, but we are not God, we are weak humans, that isn’t an excuse it’s simply a fact. We do fall, but Jesus is there to pick us up, over and over and over again. Giver I understand what you are saying, but, if you sin you are not to give up, this is the message of Jesus, He is there to forgive us our sins, He understands we will sin, He doesn’t turn His back on us when we sin, He forgives us and gives us grace to defeat our sin.

 

[Giver]

Tom:

Doubletalk, first you say they “will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit”; then you go on to say “if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person.

Which is it? If he “will not” then he will not, the problem with your theology is that it implies that if you are led by the Holy Spirit you lose your free will somehow. This is certainly not true and absolutely goes against the Bible.

How does it go against the Bible?

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[Giver]

Tom:

Absolutely, we must “try”, but we are not God, we are weak humans, that isn’t an excuse it’s simply a fact. We do fall, but Jesus is there to pick us up, over and over and over again. Giver I understand what you are saying, but, if you sin you are not to give up, this is the message of Jesus, He is there to forgive us our sins, He understands we will sin, He doesn’t turn His back on us when we sin, He forgives us and gives us grace to defeat our sin.

No! You don’t understand, if someone knows God they have the Holy Spirit to Guide them and:
Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[Giver]

“if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.” Again in context please, they are speaking of total abandonment of God, not simply sinning, but a total rejection. And no, a sin is NOT a total abandonment of God.

You deliberately commit a sin that is total abandonment of God, if you know God.

 

[Lazerlike42]

One important note Giver - the Greek word translated as “sin” in 1 John 3:1-9 is hamartano, which is in the progressive present tense. It indicates a perpetual state of sin, not any and all sin.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Giver:

Which is it? If he “will not” then he will not, the problem with your theology is that it implies that if you are led by the Holy Spirit you lose your free will somehow. This is certainly not true and absolutely goes against the Bible.

How does it go against the Bible?

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

Being guided is completely different from being controlled. What’s more, the arguement that was being raised was that you contradict yourself. First you say that no person who knows God is capable of deliberately sinning, then you say that Hebrews is talking about a person who knows God who deliberately sins. If a person knowing God cannot deliberately sin, how can a person who knows God deliberately sin?

 

[Giver]

Lazerlike42:

One important note Giver - the Greek word translated as “sin” in 1 John 3:1-9 is hamartano, which is in the progressive present tense. It indicates a perpetual state of sin, not any and all sin.

No! If someone knows God he or she will not sin, and if they did there is no redemption. (Acts 5:1-11) Ananias and Sapphira was a very explicit example of that fact. When someone knows God they have the Holy Spirit in him or her. If they sin they are denying the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I believe most people only know of God they don’t know Him.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Giver:

No! If someone knows God he or she will not sin, and if they did there is no redemption. (Acts 5:1-11) Ananias and Sapphira was a very explicit example of that fact. When someone knows God they have the Holy Spirit in him or her. If they sin they are denying the Holy Spirit, and there is no forgiveness for blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

I believe most people only know of God they don’t know Him.

For one thing, you are denying an inarguable fact, and also putting the english Bible above the original language.

But I will ask you again - when was the last time you sinned?

 

[thistle]

Lazerlike42:

For one thing, you are denying an inarguable fact, and also putting the english Bible above the original language.

But I will ask you again - when was the last time you sinned?

You are wasting your time. Remember this is GIVER the prophet, the one who Jesus talks to and tells him we are all wrong and Giver is the only person in the world who will be saved!

 

[Lazerlike42]

thistle:

You are wasting your time. Remember this is GIVER the prophet, the one who Jesus talks to and tells him we are all wrong and Giver is the only person in the world who will be saved!

I know, but we can’t just ignore him because it’s hard, even if its only because we will be held accountable for it someday.