Mortifications of Early Saints - Too Extreme?

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My hypothetical scenario was assuming no bodily harm would come to you from sucking puss out of your neighbors wound. 😉
But that’s the point, it’s a bodily fluid, which if ingested could cause bodily harm.
With that said I will rephrase the question.

If God asked you to suck the puss out of your neighbors wound and assured you that no bodily harm would come to you for doing it, would you suck the puss out?
God wouldn’t ask someone to do this. Why not stick to the basics? It’s not like he doesn’t ask us to do things every single day.🤷
 
My hypothetical scenario was assuming no bodily harm would come to you from sucking puss out of your neighbors wound. 😉

With that said I will rephrase the question.

If God asked you to suck the puss out of your neighbors wound and assured you that no bodily harm would come to you for doing it, would you suck the puss out?
If God himself spoke to me and told me to do it and I was sure it was God, and not some deceiving spirit, or just my mind, then I would obey.

However, you are making the assumption that God told them to do it. Is that what happened, or did they feel that the most humbling way to show charity to someone sick was to suck the pus out and did that as penance?
 
God wouldn’t ask someone to do this. Why not stick to the basics? It’s not like he doesn’t ask us to do things every single day.🤷
Why not just have some fun and answer the hypothetical question? Why are you so opposed to answering a simple hypothetical question like this? Here what if God told you that this act would not only save your neighbors life but also thier soul?
 
If God himself spoke to me and told me to do it and I was sure it was God, and not some deceiving spirit, or just my mind, then I would obey.
Hey there you go! Now please tell Rence that wasnt so hard. 😃
However, you are making the assumption that God told them to do it. Is that what happened, or did they feel that the most humbling way to show charity to someone sick was to suck the pus out and did that as penance?
No I didn’t assume that. My hypothetical question has nothing to do with the motives of the saints. The only thing I said was that the saint’s actions were inspired by a love for God and their neighbor
 
My hypothetical scenario was assuming no bodily harm would come to you from sucking puss out of your neighbors wound. 😉

With that said I will rephrase the question.

If God asked you to suck the puss out of your neighbors wound and assured you that no bodily harm would come to you for doing it, would you suck the puss out?
Ahhh, but here is where we run into a dead end my friend. I studied enough philosophy and theology to know that one may never answer a question about an untenable situation. To answer such a question is like trying to divide by zero. The situation cannot possibly exist; therefore, there can be no possible answer says St. Bonaventure.

I’ll give you this, such questions can be a fun game when you’re playing with people who never read Aristotle, Aquinas, Bonaventure or Scotus.😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Mabe the whole point is that the flesh isn’t what matters in the whole big picture of things. If the saints (or anyone for that matter) didn’t think beyond the limitations of the flesh then would anyone be willing to risk giving aid and comfort to those suffering from contagious and terminal illnesses, such as has been the case with leprosy in times gone by.

Isn’t it a great act of charity to physically help those that the world feared helping because they might become infected?

Maybe that is the whole point. Charity should have no limits.
 
Ahhh, but here is where we run into a dead end my friend. I studied enough philosophy and theology to know that one may never answer a question about an untenable situation. To answer such a question is like trying to divide by zero. The situation cannot possibly exist; therefore, there can be no possible answer says St. Bonaventure.

I’ll give you this, such questions can be a fun game when you’re playing with people who never read Aristotle, Aquinas, Bonaventure or Scotus.😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Well shucks Br. I guess that makes me special.:whackadoo:
 
Mabe the whole point is that the flesh isn’t what matters in the whole big picture of things. If the saints (or anyone for that matter) didn’t think beyond the limitations of the flesh then would anyone be willing to risk giving aid and comfort to those suffering from contagious and terminal illnesses, such as has been the case with leprosy in times gone by.

Isn’t it a great act of charity to physically help those that the world feared helping because they might become infected?

Maybe that is the whole point. Charity should have no limits.
That is the point. Bl. John Paul II said it best, “Sometimes, love hurts.” He didn’t mean danger; though that can also be part of the picture. Usually, hurt means that love can be demanding.

I was thinking about some of these stories. I am remembering something from post-grad school theology. When I was doing post-grad work, my area was Ascetical and Mystical Theology, which today is called Spiritual Theology, same difference, just shorter. 😃

I remember that we read many of the Masters. Often, you had to read their bios to understand their theology. One of the things that our professors always cautioned against was myth. There is a great deal of myth out there around the saints. It seems that the more popular the saint, the more drama that people add to their stories. People can get carried away, just out of love. They don’t intend to do harm. They get so passionate about a particular person that they exaggerate the events.

Franciscans live with this every day with two of our 20th century saints, St. Pio and St. Maximilian. Those of us who are younger and never met either one of them rely on what we read. However, when we speak to the older friars who knew them personally, it’s interesting to find out how much of what we read either never happened or is blown out of proportion.

From reading, one would think that St. Max did nothing else but contemplate the mysteries of surrounding the Blessed Mother. I had the great pleasure of meeting one of his nieces. During the conversation, she shared many of the stories that her father had shared with them. Max was not as intense as his hagiographers would paint him. He had a wonderful sense of humor. He was very practical. One of his greatest spiritual concerns was fidelity to Francis’ vision of poverty. It bothered him that the 20th century Conventual Franciscans had become so clerical that they lived like diocesan priests, with many comforts that the Observant and Capuchin Franciscans did not have. We’re rarely told about that part of his spiritual life. He was a physicist and mathematician. He wrote on evolution, geocentrism and even commented on some of Einstein’s theories. This was a man who had many interests and many talents. He did not spend his days and nights saying rosaries, though he did shape the Mariology of the 20th century Church and some of his writings and thoughts on Mary are part of the CCC.

The same holds true for St. Pio. To hear some people talk, the Church and the Capuchin Franciscans made his life miserable and the devil beat him up every night of the week and twice on Sundays. The story changes when you speak to the old Capuchin Franciscan Friars who knew him.

He did have confrontations with the devil and the devil did beat him up several times, but it was not his bread and butter. God did not allow him to be tortured in such a way that he had no respite.

The General Minister did have serious concerns about his story regarding the stigmata and had him examined by many doctors, psychologists and theologians. He did command him not to celebrate mass for the laity.

However, he was never punished and while he loved the lay faithful, he lived in a house that had a novitiate. He loved the novices. While he was in seclusion from the world, he enjoyed his time with the novices, celebrated mass for them, played practical jokes on them. Apparently he could dish it out, but did not take it back too well. He had a temper that he struggled to control.

He also spent a great deal of time caring for sick children whom he loved. He was behind the construction of one of the best children’s hospitals in Italy. He made a daily trip to the hospital. Someone, innocently purchased a car for him, not knowing that a friar cannot own a car. The community may own a car, but not the individual. Since he was a special character, the Guardian allowed him to use the car for his daily ride over to the hospital. He got a kick out of his car ride, because he never went too far from the friary. Therefore, he rarely rode in a car.

There are other details that made these men very holy and very palatable, but are rarely mentioned such as Maximilian’s love for the created world and the world of knowledge, Pio’s love for the young, be they novices or children and his compassion for the sick. They were simple men living in the 20th century. Yet, neither learned to drive. Both avoided the telephone, because they felt ill at ease talking to a disembodied voice as Pio once said. Neither of them ever saw a TV. Max loved radio. He loved writing and published a magazine with a circulation second only to the NYT. They lived this life all for the love of God.

We have to focus on how these folks lived and take the strange stories with a grain of salt. There is some truth to them, but there is often a lot of myth, because these people became giants among those who knew them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
If CAF ever puts out a book with all of Brother JR’s posts, I want to be the first one to buy a copy.

-Tim-
 
If CAF ever puts out a book with all of Brother JR’s posts, I want to be the first one to buy a copy.

-Tim-
No, I will be the first one. 🙂

I can see it now.

Brother JR on the inquisition
Brother JR on the SSPX
Brother JR on Secular Priests vs. Religious

Great idea!
 
No, I will be the first one. 🙂

I can see it now.

Brother JR on the inquisition
Brother JR on the SSPX
Brother JR on Secular Priests vs. Religious

Great idea!
As long as they cut out my uncharitable posts it will be a gem.

Actually, it is something that has been on my mind for a while, at a minimum, saving and printing Brother JR’s posts for my own personal enjoyment and education. And I’m sure Brother is not alone in having many posts worthy of reprint.

Anyway, Brother JR. knows that he has touched many lives here on CAF in the way he has illustrated the sublimity of the Catholic faith. I thank God for his presence here and am a better servant of God for having read his writing.

Love ya bro!

-Tim-

-Tim-
 
As long as they cut out my uncharitable posts it will be a gem.

Actually, it is something that has been on my mind for a while, at a minimum, saving and printing Brother JR’s posts for my own personal enjoyment and education. And I’m sure Brother is not alone in having many posts worthy of reprint.

Anyway, Brother JR. knows that he has touched many lives here on CAF in the way he has illustrated the sublimity of the Catholic faith. I thank God for his presence here and am a better servant of God for having read his writing.

Love ya bro!

-Tim-
Amen.

Love you too, Br. Jay! :hug3:
 
OK, let’s get this straight. This thread is called

MORTIFICATION – now I’m totally 😊
of

EARLY – I’m too young to be early :confused: Tthough I do have a birthday on Tue, Sep 6, so I’m catching up to the early Christians, at least in age.
SAINTS – I’m not holy enough to be one of these 😦
A book of my posts indeed. What were you guys drinking? Whatever it is, you need to get off that stuff.:eek:

We have a brother in my community who wants to do the same thing. He wants me to print my lessons. He’s been pushing this for such a long time, that I told him to find someone who would be willing to read them and polish them up. I don’t like reading my own stuff, it’s like eating your own cooking.

For what it’s worth, my only hope is to do some good for the Church. Thank you for your kindness. Forget the book and just pray for me.

Now, we can get back to moritication instead of mortifying Br. Jay? 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
We have a brother in my community who wants to do the same thing. He wants me to print my lessons. He’s been pushing this for such a long time, that I told him to find someone who would be willing to read them and polish them up. I don’t like reading my own stuff, it’s like eating your own cooking.
Awesome!
Now, we can get back to moritication instead of mortifying Br. Jay? 😃
Sure. After you promise to print out your stuff and let the brother bind them. 🙂
For what it’s worth, my only hope is to do some good for the Church. Thank you for your kindness. Forget the book and just pray for me.
What you have been doing IS doing good for the Church - The Church Militant on CAF. Trust us on this.

Okay, back to regular scheduled programming.
 
These behaviors are examiend under a microscope. The Church is not trying to pass judgment on the mental competency of the individual. She calls in experts in ascetical theology and spiritual psychology to pass judgment on the intent. For example, one of our illustrious Franciscans, Fr. Benedict G, was called in to weigh in on Bl. Mother Theresa. Fr. Benedict is an expert in Christian Spirituality. If anyone can recognize intent, it is he. He has a great deal of knowledge and experience in this field.

Another expert is Mother Agnes Mary, the General Superior of the Sisters of Life. There are several other psychologists whose area of expertise is the spiritual life. The in come the ascetical and mystical theologians. Once the pyschologists have determined that the proper intention existed, even though the behavior was unhealthy, then the theologian has to run the whole thing through the meat grinder as I call it to look for the fruits of such behavior. Whether it is healthy or not, it must yield great charity toward God and neighbor and be rooted in great love for God and neighbor. All of this is pieced together form the testimonies, writings and observations of many people.

I think that it is fair to say that to die for one’s faith is not the same as killing oneself for the faith. This was proven in the canonization process of St. Maximilian Kolbe. One of the delays on the table was whether or not he acted morally, because every human being has the moral oblgiation to protect himself from harm and Max volunteered.

The break came when it was proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that he would not have chosen death, if there had been any other way to save an innocent man and protect his family. He chose the highest good possible for him.

Had he a choice between being executed and leading those men out of the concentration camp, choosing execution would have been wrong. That latter was not an option. It was either let this man die and his children live without a father or try to save his life. There was no time for Max to discern which was the best way to save this man’s life. The Commandant was going to act right then and there. Max had to be quick.

His offer to die for this prisoner was not taken lightely by the Defender of the Faith. He tried every possible way to prove that Maximilian had not chosen the highest good. He tried and he failed. The Postulator won the case and Max went on to be beatified and later canonized.

For those who don’t know, the Defender of the Faith is the official who was once so unelegantly called the Devil’s Advocate.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
that is interesting about St Maximilian Kolbe… I agree that God would not want us to ruin our bodies, because He created them, - but I’m kind of wondering, where is the line between causing self discomfort and ruining the body? This is something I’m wondering after reading this thread…

I’m sure we’d all agree that severely mutilating the body would not be allowed.

But what about things that cause a lot of pain but otherwise don’t mutilate the body or cause illness/death? But even in those cases, - it’s possible that some of the Saints died early because of the penances they did, and because of the extreme amount of effort they put into everything (praying instead of sleeping, eating very little, travelling very long distances, etc). Were these self destructive actions on their part, since they maybe contributed to them getting ill, etc? Yet they did all this to help others, with love… and I’m not sure where the line is here… if someone prays for hours on their knees on a stone floor, which might become really painful after a while, - are they only causing themselves discomfort? what about how people wear hairshirts, etc?
This is something I’ve wondered about in regards to mental illness. Is it possible that mental disorders lead one to desire a closer relationship with God?

I’m not sure how exactly to phrase the question. it’s too early and my neurons are sluggish.🤷

Someone who is depressed may naturally withdraw from the world. However if they use that time of withdrawal to focus on God alone, is it them making the best use of a situation or is there a tendency for depressed folks who are already pious to become even more pious.

How about those with OCD/scrupulosity. Is a Catholic with OCD more likely to strive to live a better life for Christ?

Can mental illness be a path to holiness?
I don’t know, I think that could be true for some mental illnesses, but - scrupulosity is possibly something else… it’s not entirely psychological, there are other issues like lack of trust in God, pride (trying to figure everything out yourself, self reliance) etc… with scrupulosity, maybe it might turn into a mental illness, or perhaps come from one, - but there are other issues there that are not merely psychological. For example, it would help a scrupulous person to have greater trust, to follow a spiritual director, etc. I have scrupulosity btw.
 
No, it is not wrong. The virtue does not change, even if the expression of the virtue is an unhealthy one. They were not canonized for eating puss or lice or drinking dirty water. They were canonized for being humble, obedient, penitential, and charitable.

The Church looks at people in their context. What Fr. Croiset and St. Claude may have praised and admired, may well have been abarrant behavior. However, neither of them knew that it was. Just because they praised it, does not mean that the behavior was healthy. They praised it, because they didn’t have the knowledge that we have about mental health.
I hope this question doesn’t come across in the wrong way… I have a degree in psychology so I understand some of what it’s based on etc. But having been taught some theories in psychology that seemed to be rather incorrect from a Christian perspective, and considering that there are so many competing theories that all disagree with one another - I am wondering how can we know that modern psychology can give a more accurate assessment than - let’s say Fr Croiset or St Claude? (honest question). I agree that the Church would look at the virtues present though. But - if someone’s behaviour was unhealthy yet came from love of God and neighbour - I am wondering if this affects how pleasing it is to God? Or does He only look at the virtue involved and the love with which it was done?

just trying to understand…

God bless 🙂
 
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