N
Nine_Two
Guest
Stand by him in what? Thinking the sins of EC against EO don’t matter, or in ultramontanism?
- Status
N
Nine_Two
Guest
I hear about Russian (almost always attributed to the MP) atrocities far more than I hear about the Sack of Constantinople. In fact other than the obscure reference I made to it earlier in the thread (the pope apologizing for something that happened 700 years ago, note their was no criticism in what I said, only the statement that Rome thought something that happened 700 years ago was worth apologizing for) I haven’t seen mention of it in a long time, and I seem to recall the Massacre of the Latins being brought up then as well.Nine, with all due respect, you point out differences on a daily basis and do so with flourish. And perhaps there is some validity to what the ECs are saying…I think when we dig into full on apologetics mode we lose intellectual honesty and go for apologetics without clarity. I’ve seen that with regard to the constant EO pointing out of atrocities by the CC but rarely do you hear an EO point out or admit to the same from the other end. We hear about the sacking of Constantinople in CAF all the time but how often do we hear about the Massacre of the Latins? It goes on and on. I think it’s easy to be selective when one becomes too “apologeticky.”
I do point out differences between our communions quite often, I would disagree that it is a daily basis, but it is always in response to people saying we’re all the same and we should just give it up and rejoin Rome (or in some cases that we should let Catholics take Communion with us). I absolutely won’t deny that, but in a thread about how we can work together on the things we agree on, I fail to see what the relevence of our differences are. Dvdjs mentioned working with an Orthodox mission near him, and I wish he had made that the focal point of his posts, because that’s the kind of thing we need.
I absolutely agree that there is validity to what some of the ECs here are saying, I just don’t think much of it is relevent to the discussion. To be honest I’m also in favour of us working with Protestants when we have a common front. At these abortion rallies, for example, we shouldn’t have a Catholic group, and an Orthodox group, and a Protestant group of whatever denomination, we should have a Christian group. When we build Churches we shouldn’t do it as an insular activity, but it should be a community activity, any and all should be invited to help out.
My issue remains the double standards people have, acknowledge the wrongs you’ve done against us, get on your knees, beg that we might some day deign to forgive you, and don’t bother mentioning what we’ve done to you because we’ll just pretend nothing happened.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Pope John Paul II was pretty darned apologetic to the Orthodox IMO, and returned many of the priceless treasures/items taken from the Sack of Constantinople. It’s not for each individual Catholic to apologize but rather leadership and that has been done IMO.
I hear about Russian (almost always attributed to the MP) atrocities far more than I hear about the Sack of Constantinople. In fact other than the obscure reference I made to it earlier in the thread (the pope apologizing for something that happened 700 years ago, note their was no criticism in what I said, only the statement that Rome thought something that happened 700 years ago was worth apologizing for) I haven’t seen mention of it in a long time, and I seem to recall the Massacre of the Latins being brought up then as well.
I do point out differences between our communions quite often, I would disagree that it is a daily basis, but it is always in response to people saying we’re all the same and we should just give it up and rejoin Rome (or in some cases that we should let Catholics take Communion with us). I absolutely won’t deny that, but in a thread about how we can work together on the things we agree on, I fail to see what the relevence of our differences are. Dvdjs mentioned working with an Orthodox mission near him, and I wish he had made that the focal point of his posts, because that’s the kind of thing we need.
I absolutely agree that there is validity to what some of the ECs here are saying, I just don’t think much of it is relevent to the discussion. To be honest I’m also in favour of us working with Protestants when we have a common front. At these abortion rallies, for example, we shouldn’t have a Catholic group, and an Orthodox group, and a Protestant group of whatever denomination, we should have a Christian group. When we build Churches we shouldn’t do it as an insular activity, but it should be a community activity, any and all should be invited to help out.
My issue remains the double standards people have, acknowledge the wrongs you’ve done against us, get on your knees, beg that we might some day deign to forgive you, and don’t bother mentioning what we’ve done to you because we’ll just pretend nothing happened.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
N
Nine_Two
Guest
I absolutely agree with that. However it would seem some of the posters do not, and want an apology from every single member of the Orthodox Church for everything what happened, but who will not even acknowledge that anything happened on their side.Pope John Paul II was pretty darned apologetic to the Orthodox IMO, and returned many of the priceless treasures/items taken from the Sack of Constantinople. It’s not for each individual Catholic to apologize but rather leadership and that has been done IMO.
It’s like the episode of Family Guy when they’re on a tour of Germany. NUSSING BAD HAPPENED!
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I’ve never watched Family Guy so I’m out of the loop on that reference, sorry Nine 
.
But I guess we perceive this differently. Since I’ve been posting on here (2007), I have observed more of what you say coming from the Orthodox posters than the Catholics. Catholics here tend to play defense to the aggressive offense put up by the EO’s. Usually Catholics, as I’ve stated, are too passive with EO’s IMO. The Orthodox don’t bat an eye at pointing out papal or Catholic missteps. I think it’s a two-way street with more of the problem coming from EO’s than Catholics.
I think the schism lives on…the same petty squabbling goofiness of accenting differences and drifting apart that occurred a thousand years ago is alive and well in here…
.But I guess we perceive this differently. Since I’ve been posting on here (2007), I have observed more of what you say coming from the Orthodox posters than the Catholics. Catholics here tend to play defense to the aggressive offense put up by the EO’s. Usually Catholics, as I’ve stated, are too passive with EO’s IMO. The Orthodox don’t bat an eye at pointing out papal or Catholic missteps. I think it’s a two-way street with more of the problem coming from EO’s than Catholics.
I think the schism lives on…the same petty squabbling goofiness of accenting differences and drifting apart that occurred a thousand years ago is alive and well in here…
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Family Guy is a pretty horrid show, still I expect more of you.I’ve never watched Family Guy so I’m out of the loop on that reference, sorry Nine
But I guess we perceive this differently. Since I’ve been posting on here (2007), I have observed more of what you say coming from the Orthodox posters than the Catholics. Catholics here tend to play defense to the aggressive offense put up by the EO’s. Usually Catholics, as I’ve stated, are too passive with EO’s IMO. The Orthodox don’t bat an eye at pointing out papal or Catholic missteps. I think it’s a two-way street with more of the problem coming from EO’s than Catholics.
I think the schism lives on…the same petty squabbling goofiness of accenting differences and drifting apart that occurred a thousand years ago is alive and well in here…
I do remember what you are talking about when I first joined this forum. However more recently I haven’t seen much of that. Perhaps I’ve just missed the threads where it happens, I don’t know. The fact that there are very few active Orthodox posters anymore might have something to do with that though.
Anyway, as I said, it is the double standard that annoys me. I’m not defending anyone who is Orthodox for their double standards, I’m just stating that the people who are evidencing them in this thread, and in recent threads, are speaking as Catholics and are engaging in polemics on topics that are not immediatly related while making grandios claims as to their own adherence to the ideal of the OP.
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Very interesting point about the Slavonic word “KaFolicheskaya.”
In fact, while this does mean “Catholic,” in the East Slavic Orthodox Churches, it has referred to the Orthodox (Catholic) Church only.
The word “KaTolik” refers to “Roman Catholic.”
There was a Russian Orthodox holy man who daily prayed 12,000 Jesus Prayers (I have a book on him but forget the title) who said that between RC’s and the Orthodox there is only one “letter of difference.” That was his personal view.
Ah, ecumenism . . .
Alex
H
Hesychios
Guest
I will have to get back to you later, I don’t have the time to read the catechism at workHesychios, please see post 92
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
As for apologies about the synod of 1946 - I think that one may overdo that and certainly, Eastern Catholics have things to apologise for to their Orthodox brothers and sisters (their treatment of the Orthodox after Gorbachev’s Glasnost etc.).
I think though in the ROC’s case, it would be good if it would just stop considering the 1946 synod as a valid synod and not as an example of Stalin’s use of the Church for his own ends.
It is good that the ROC has stopped advancing the canonization cause of Fr. Gabriel Kostelnyk, the priest who “instigated” the movement to separate from Rome (when all the UGCC bishops were in prison).
Fr. Kostelnyk was a tragic figure and the Soviets had his son incarcerated. The idea that he could do anything BUT follow Soviet orders . . .
My grandfather was a priest under the Soviet Union and he saw himself how all Orthodox priests of Galicia (who were, for the most part, closet Greek-Catholics) were ordered to attend the annual public requiem for Fr. Kostelnyk at his grave/shrine.
Fr. Kostelnyk was turned into a Soviet-style “martyr” for purposes of completely discrediting the Unia.
The ROC, at the very least, could simply stop referring to the L’viv event as an “Orthodox Sobor of Reunion.”
When tanks and secret police are involved, that should disqualify any gathering as a “Sobor of the Church.”
Again, the ROC had no choice in the matter. But it HAS a choice in how it chooses to refer to this event well after the fact.
Alex
I think though in the ROC’s case, it would be good if it would just stop considering the 1946 synod as a valid synod and not as an example of Stalin’s use of the Church for his own ends.
It is good that the ROC has stopped advancing the canonization cause of Fr. Gabriel Kostelnyk, the priest who “instigated” the movement to separate from Rome (when all the UGCC bishops were in prison).
Fr. Kostelnyk was a tragic figure and the Soviets had his son incarcerated. The idea that he could do anything BUT follow Soviet orders . . .
My grandfather was a priest under the Soviet Union and he saw himself how all Orthodox priests of Galicia (who were, for the most part, closet Greek-Catholics) were ordered to attend the annual public requiem for Fr. Kostelnyk at his grave/shrine.
Fr. Kostelnyk was turned into a Soviet-style “martyr” for purposes of completely discrediting the Unia.
The ROC, at the very least, could simply stop referring to the L’viv event as an “Orthodox Sobor of Reunion.”
When tanks and secret police are involved, that should disqualify any gathering as a “Sobor of the Church.”
Again, the ROC had no choice in the matter. But it HAS a choice in how it chooses to refer to this event well after the fact.
Alex
D
dzheremi
Guest
Been through this already, Alex. I highlighted the wrong part of the text because I did not read it closely enough to see that I had taken the wrong link (it is apparently an earlier version of the creed, and this particular part is an anathema, so it makes sense that it would make that distinction between the Orthodox and the Rome-affiliated Catholic).
My apologies. I should have read the whole thing before posting.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Shame, Michael! I expect you to have a copy right by your desk that you read all day at work!
I will have to get back to you later, I don’t have the time to read the catechism at work
A
Alexander_Roman
Guest
Not a problem! You had twigged my memory to this issue that I find very interesting!
St Peter Mohyla referred to the faith and Church as “Pravoslavno-Kafolicheskaya Khrystyanskaya,” as you know.
A term I think Eastern Catholics should adopt because whenever we rejected the use of “Orthodox” we tended to wind up in the Latin camp in a number of ways.
Cheers,
Alex
N
Nine_Two
Guest
I would assume the word change occured during the Nikonian reforms. It also raises the question of why other regions haven’t changed to a word in the native language. I know myself growing up and reciting the Creed I had no idea what the word “Catholic” even meant. Really it is just a transliteration of a foreign word that is meaningless to most people.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
The little bit of research I did on the Synod after it was mentioned in this thread would tend to agree with you. There was a reason that even other Orthodox Churches were uncomfortable with having relations with the Church of Moscow during this period.
J
JackQ
Guest
It really is an internal matter. Too many Latin Catholics are not very cognizant of the Eastern Catholics, and inadvertently throw the Eastern Catholics under the bus when discussing reunion with the Orthodox. One thing that doesn’t come up often is the topic under discussion here. While I hope for unity, I feel very strongly that we Roman Catholics should be completely and entirely in the Eastern Catholic corner. That doesn’t mean that their sins or our sins shouldn’t be repented of, or that Orthodox don’t matter as people. But I think it is of the utmost importance that the Eastern Catholics sense our solidarity with them, because, due to our ignorance, we don’t always give them reason to sense it.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Hmm. Well, I am for things that helps the ECs reclaim their theology and jettison unhelpful Latin understandings, so…
Honestly, now that you mention it, though I have recited the Creed myself in Slavonic among Eastern Catholics (and heard it recited by Orthodox, though I didn’t participate, for obvious reasons), I never put too much stock into the theological opinions that might underlie the use of “Kafolicheskaya” vs. “Katolichskaya”. I guess like Nine_Two I see it as a foreign word in either case, no matter who is using it (though I am aware of the difference; it seems like a sticking point only in certain situations, cf. Catholic vs. catholic). I’m sure if I were a native speaker, I’d have a different take on it, but alas, I’m not. What can I say? Nobody’s perfect.
N
Nine_Two
Guest
Excuse me? No, I can’t take the double standards. I find them repulsive. It is hypocricy and certainly should not be tolerated. If you feel the need engage in knee-jerk hypocricy, that’s up to you.
Are you backing him up on his accusation that the Russians have commited heresy (under the Canons of the Council of Ephesus) as well?
S
sidbrown
Guest
There was sharing of communion with the Catholics for many years after the filioque was introduced into the Western Creed. Since it occurred in the past and a precedent has already been set on this issue, it seems like you are introducing a new requirement for shared communion which was not applied in the past.Unity in faith is a great good thing
But because we do not believe the same things we cannot share communion.
And I have already mentioned that there was a difference of opinion on whether or not slavery was justified and this did not prevent sharing of communion, even though this difference in belief was there.
D
dzheremi
Guest
Sidbrown, the filioque is not a very good example. It was fought against for centuries by Roman popes, and only when it was adopted as a “de fide” piece of dogma did it become a church-dividing issue.
- Status