Moses & Jesus

[tomshaikh]

**This is not true, at least, according to the Islamic teachings. God is a spirit, Yes. But he has many things such as angels. they are all spirits. They are creatures. Not gods. Holy Spirit is also an angel (Gabriel) mentioned in the Quran and in the bible. That is a creature of God, not God or part of God. That is the end of the spirit as a God.

Son is the same. God does not have any wife or son or daughters. He has no family. He niether begets nor is He begotten. (Chapter 112 of Quran). There is none like HIM.

Allah creates by His words. That does not mean His words become Gods. It is quite simple never to have any God beside the One God. The Jews never knew about it. The christians who are only a branch or off-shoot of the Jews cannot invent something which was never known to any one before them.**

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Good luck man. One of the Surah is reveled on Prophet Muhammad pbuh sadness that those people where not listening what Prophet Muhammad pbuh said from Allah/God. Dr. Israr Ahmed said that when you tell others about your religion you did your Islaha(Correction infront of Allah). May Allah Succeeded You In Your Good Intention. Ameen

 

[ronyodish]

Well thing is that it is said in bible about Trinity relationship. If it is than please tell me coz my friend present me his KingsJames Version Bible and i will look at Trinity reference in it. And whatever you write in above paragraph its donot look like divine it look like humine. And what ever you said in above paragraph is told by others people who have no connection with God or Jesus 12 disciples and other apostles said about Trinity or not. But again those people are not getting revelation from God and they have not right to changed anything or add. Except what jesus told him to write.

tomshaikh,

The relationship in the Trinity is again not the same thing as human partnership. The Trinity is One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus, the Lord of Peace, commanded His Apostles to go to all the nations, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teach the nations everything that He taught them. The Apostles then were succeeded by other men who continued the mission of Jesus to teach and baptize all nations. To this day, these men, who we call bishops, are continuing the work that Jesus gave to His Apostles.

God bless,

Rony

 

[tomshaikh]

tomshaikh,

The relationship in the Trinity is again not the same thing as human partnership. The Trinity is One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus, the Lord of Peace, commanded His Apostles to go to all the nations, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teach the nations everything that He taught them. The Apostles then were succeeded by other men who continued the mission of Jesus to teach and baptize all nations. To this day, these men, who we call bishops, are continuing the work that Jesus gave to His Apostles.

God bless,

Rony

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All Apostles and Bishops are what nature. Human or you know what i mean. or Saul is one of the Apostles. Think please. I believes in 12 disciples but i am not sure there word will be kept as it is as now. Extra Knowledge: Only Al-Quran is in its original form. But not in from first page will be first revelation. Otherwise we Muslims have more uphand on Quran understandings.

 

[inJESUS]

Originally Posted by planten
Rony, you have tried hard to prove Trinity. At the same time you have said " no human words can ever fully explain the Mystery of the Holy Trinity."

no one understands God fully unless he is God. But we can explain about Him in as much as our mental capacity allows us to explain what is beyond us.

I could say no human intelligence could understand Trinity. You have used the multiplicative sign for trinity instead of Summation. Why not use the subtraction 1-1-1= -1. or the division system 1/1/1=1 These are not anything good for trinity.

if you are looking for a mathematical analogy it is 1x1x1 …what you present cannot be used to talk about the number 1…logic says this.

Some one is explaining the Trinity by egg which has yoke and white (albumen) and shell. Some are explaining trinity by Tea i.e. Water +milk+tea leaves. Is this not a joke?

analogies are the best ways to explain and simplify things…Jesus used them a lot…

There is no need for Trinity when you are again coming back to One God only.

Trinity is about the One God…
its not about deciding the number of God.

Were the gnome known to the readers of the old testament? Did the Jews not know about the gnomas??

when yu explain things, you need words…

You are just making it up when it is no where. There is no need to break up the God and then unite Him into One.

we do not make it up when we say God, His Word and His Spirit is One God…it’s all over the Bible…OT and NT.

 

[inJESUS]

This is not true, at least, according to the Islamic teachings. God is a spirit, Yes.

the Quran does not say this. Yet the Quran does say Allah’s word is uncreated. Does it mean Allah and His Word are 2gods?

But he has many things such as angels. they are all spirits. They are creatures. Not gods. Holy Spirit is also an angel (Gabriel) mentioned in the Quran and in the bible. That is a creature of God, not God or part of God. That is the end of the spirit as a God.

 

[inJESUS]

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All Apostles and Bishops are what nature. Human or you know what i mean. or Saul is one of the Apostles. Think please. I believes in 12 disciples but i am not sure there word will be kept as it is as now. Extra Knowledge: Only Al-Quran is in its original form. But not in from first page will be first revelation. Otherwise we Muslims have more uphand on Quran understandings.

presrvation of a book is not a criteria for prophethood…never was it written in the Bible as a criteria…there are many preserved manuscripts, books, poems, but none of them are from God.

You and the Mormons share many things in common : corruption charges, personal revelation with no witnesses…and both Muhammad and Joseph Smith have millions of followers…both cannot be true yet both present the same example of how can millions be wrong even though the prophet they follow claimed divine visions that no one heard,gave new book that contradicts previous scriptures and had claming the other books/people corrupt.

In other words, the beauty of a book and its preservation were not, are not, and will never be a criteria for prophethood. The Only criteria is the Bible.

 

[tomshaikh]

presrvation of a book is not a criteria for prophethood…never was it written in the Bible as a criteria…there are many preserved manuscripts, books, poems, but none of them are from God.

You and the Mormons share many things in common : corruption charges, personal revelation with no witnesses…and both Muhammad and Joseph Smith have millions of followers…both cannot be true yet both present the same example of how can millions be wrong even though the prophet they follow claimed divine visions that no one heard,gave new book that contradicts previous scriptures and had claming the other books/people corrupt.

In other words, the beauty of a book and its preservation were not, are not, and will never be a criteria for prophethood. The Only criteria is the Bible.

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That preservation of Al-Quran is the biggest miracles of our beloved Prophet Muhammad PBUH. And you are comparing Prophet of Islam with Joseph Smith. His book is May God give you long time you will see it how it will scattered. Than if you see that than you will know Who is Prophet Muhammad IS PBUH. I never read his book but you will not make single verses like on in Al-Quran. Open Challenge from Allah/God.

 

[Angelos]

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That preservation of Al-Quran is the biggest miracles of our beloved Prophet Muhammad PBUH. And you are comparing Prophet of Islam with Joseph Smith. His book is May God give you long time you will see it how it will scattered. Than if you see that than you will know Who is Prophet Muhammad IS PBUH. I never read his book but you will not make single verses like on in Al-Quran. Open Challenge from Allah/God.

The preservation of the Koran is the biggest miracle of your beloved prophet? If you really believe so, you make Mohammad equal to Allah! The Koran makes it clear that the preservation of the divine message - not only the Koran, but even the former revelations - belongs to Allah (15: 9) Therefore, this has nothing to do with the prophetic mission of your beloved prophet.

Besides, the compilation of the Koran verses into a single book, their revision and canonization took place after Mohammad’s death. How can you designate it as a miracle performed by Mohammad then? Do you really believe that Mohammad, who could not work a single miracle when he was alive - came back to this world to perform the supposed miracle by preserving the Koran?

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[ronyodish]

Rony, you have tried hard to prove Trinity. At the same time you have said " no human words can ever fully explain the Mystery of the Holy Trinity." I could say no human intelligence could understand Trinity. You have used the multiplicative sign for trinity instead of Summation. Why not use the subtraction 1-1-1= -1. or the division system 1/1/1=1 These are not anything good for trinity.

planten,

Peace be with you

Christians call the Holy Trinity a Mystery of the Faith. No human terms can ever exhaust this Mystery of Faith. No human person can fully understand the Trinity. Only God can fully understand His Trinitarian Life. When the Son became Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, He revealed to us the Trinity, and we believe with Catholic and Divine Faith that there is One God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In Old Testament, there were hints of the Trinity, but its revelation came to us in Jesus Christ. This is because God intervened in salvation history in stages, until the fullness of time when mankind was ready for the revelation of the Father’s Son and Spirit. We believe that there is no further public revelation since the death of the last Apostle, until the Second Coming of Jesus in Glory.

I used the multiplication analogy as just that, a human analogy to give an explanation. In human nature, there are analogies that one can use to explain the Mysteries of the Faith, but these will always be imperfect. The analogies themselves are not the Mysteries of the Faith; they are merely tools.

Some one is explaining the Trinity by egg which has yoke and white (albumen) and shell. Some are explaining trinity by Tea i.e. Water +milk+tea leaves. Is this not a joke?

Some analogies will be better than others, but again, they are mere tools to help explain. They do not exhaust the Mysteries of the Faith. It is a human attempt to explain in simple ways a revealed Mystery of the Faith, and not all Christians use these analogies. For example: St. Patrick used a shamrock to explain the Trinity in converting the people of Ireland.

There is no need for Trinity when you are again coming back to One God only. You feel that there is trinity because you read certain things in the bible that make you feel God has three parts. While it is not so.

The One God revealed to us the Trinity. Christians believe what God has revealed. We do not decide what is needed or not needed. We confess the Trinity because God the Trinity revealed it.

God does not have three parts. This is not how we understand the Holy Trinity. The One God is three Qnome. Each Qnoma is fully God, not a third of God. When you say “parts”, then that’s saying “God is 3 thirds”, but that’s not the Christian teaching. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, the Holy Spirit is fully God. Each Qnoma of the Trinity is fully God (100% God), meaning, each Qnoma possesses fully the One Divine General Essence.

If you point to God and say “What is this?” The answer is God. If you point to God and say “Who is this?” The answer is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The “whatness” is what we ask of the One “Jawhar” (Kyana in Aramaic, Ousia in Greek) of God. The “whoness” is what we ask of the three “Aqaneem” (Qnome in Aramaic, Hypostases in Greek) of God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Were the gnome known to the readers of the old testament? Did the Jews not know about the gnomas?? You are just making it up when it is no where. There is no need to break up the God and then unite Him into One.

It is not “gnome”, it’s “Qnome” with a Qop, not a Gamal. Qnome is plural (not gnomas). Qnoma is singular (In Arabic, it’s Aqnom: أقنوم). This is Aramaic. I’m not sure about the Hebrew. I’m a Chaldean Catholic, and Chaldean Catholics are Aramaic speaking Christians.

As I mentioned earlier, in the Old Testament, there were hints of the Trinity, but the Trinity was not revealed until the revelation of Jesus Christ. Another way of saying this, is that, what is hidden in the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.

We don’t “make up” stuff. This is what has been revealed to us in Jesus Christ. In all the Aramaic speaking Christian Churches (both West Syriac and East Syriac Churches), this is how we received the Faith from the Apostles in speaking of the Trinity: East Syriacs say: 1 Kyana, 3 Qnome, and West Syriacs say: 1 Kyono, 3 Qnome. In Arabic, we say: 1 Jawhar, 3 Aqaneem.

God bless,

Rony

 

[ronyodish]

All Apostles and Bishops are what nature. Human or you know what i mean. or Saul is one of the Apostles. Think please. I believes in 12 disciples but i am not sure there word will be kept as it is as now. Extra Knowledge: Only Al-Quran is in its original form. But not in from first page will be first revelation. Otherwise we Muslims have more uphand on Quran understandings.

tomshaikh,

The words of Jesus given directly to the Apostles, and words of the Holy Spirit given to the Apostles through Inspiration, have been preserved through the centuries and continues to this day. Apostolic Christians call the words of God to us as Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition.

The Qur’an is not the revelation of God, because Jesus taught us everything we need for salvation. The Qu’ran is just a book like other books that has truth and error mixed in it.

God bless,

Rony

 

[tomshaikh]

The preservation of the Koran is the biggest miracle of your beloved prophet? If you really believe so, you make Mohammad pbuh equal to Allah! The Koran makes it clear that the preservation of the divine message - not only the Koran, but even the former revelations - belongs to Allah (15: 9) Therefore, this has nothing to do with the prophetic mission of your beloved prophet.

Besides, the compilation of the Koran verses into a single book, their revision and canonization took place after Mohammad’s death pbuh. How can you designate it as a miracle performed by Mohammad pbuh then? Do you really believe that Mohammad pbuh, who could not work a single miracle when he was alive - came back to this world to perform the supposed miracle by preserving the Koran?

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

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Hey dude i think i didn’t get the idea what preservation means. But Al-Quran is revealed on Prophet Muhammad PBUH like Torah is the book of Moses, Zabore is the book of David and Bible is the book of Jesus. Isn’t it time for you to know who Prophet Muhammad PBUH. The last prophet who some jew monk see the seal of his prophecy on between his two shoulders in his childhood. “Lailaha illal la Muhammad dore Rasul Allah”. Mashallah

Miracle of Prophet Muhammad PBUH mentioned in Quran

Al-Qamar( The Moon)
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).] (1) And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (2)

Al-Quran 54:1-2

SubhanAllah

 

[tomshaikh]

tomshaikh,

The Qur’an is not the revelation of God, because Jesus taught us everything we need for salvation. The Qu’ran is just a book like other books that has truth and error mixed in it.

God bless,

Rony

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Al-Quran miracle is that you go east, west, north, south, ew, ns, we, sn you will find same Al-Quran in Arabic. Whereas, this last book from Allah/God is protected by Allah/God till few hour before judgement day. Than Non-believer will be too late for forgiveness. And one who died with Non-believer will go straight into the hell. One way ticket. And you know all who are not Muslims and new about ISLAM will be in trouble. Coz i told you guyz the truth. And one is now not aware of ISLAM. Islam scattered almost in the whole wide world. I will invite you all to go to your close mosque and get the knowledge of it and read quran with no ego. I know lots of think Al-Quran said about Jews and Christians. But you gotta be understand thats it is Allah/God and what you say Father. He want you to be not from polythesist. He is all alone since the world come into being. Believe it or not Jesus is simple man from her mother Mary womb. And he came into being with the word “BE”. For got sake Jesus loves you and he want his follower to know the truth thats why he is coming back but people on his time when he will come will know but i am sad what about people who died before he comes. What will happened to them Jesus will turn away from your faces for telling him Son of God. You guyz are lost bible is not in its original form. People from you changed the bible. Thats why you guyz put bible in the floor and in the laundary tray in which shoes are also there. Coz i think 99.9% know that somethink wrong with it you have to break the ego. Ego is saturn. And come to the light I beg you all. Its for your own good. May be i will get reward which is possible that if i convert one of you i will be going in the heaven definately. But my focus is not that. I am a nice guy didnot do adultery, didnot drink wine, didnot play gambling, try not to lie 99.9%, thou shall not kill i believe on that also, never steal anything from anyone. never do bad bitting, never try to harm anybody, good to my neighbour, love humanbeing, almost controlled on my anger, respect my Parents and olders etc etc…

 

[ronyodish]

tomshaikh,

Whether I live or die, I belong to Jesus Christ. He is my Lord, God, and Savior. He lives in me, and I live in Him. He is my Head, and I am a member of His Body. He gives me His Body and Blood for food and drink. He consoles me, and cares for me. He loves me, and wants me to be with Him forever.

I pray to God always to give me the strength to persevere until the end. Christianity is the will of God. It is the will of God for all people. By the grace of God, I am a Christian forever!

God bless,

Rony

 

[inJESUS]

Tomshaikh,

a book from God does not change but this does not mean every uncheanging book is from God. Since God’s revelation never changes as the Bible says, we rely on the Bible to see if the Quran and Muhammad fit, and they don’t. So no matter how much you say the Quran is the same, this is simply no proof of its divine origin.

 

[Angelos]

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Hey dude i think i didn’t get the idea what preservation means. But Al-Quran is revealed on Prophet Muhammad PBUH like Torah is the book of Moses, Zabore is the book of David and Bible is the book of Jesus. Isn’t it time for you to know who Prophet Muhammad PBUH. The last prophet who some jew monk see the seal of his prophecy on between his two shoulders in his childhood. “Lailaha illal la Muhammad dore Rasul Allah”. Mashallah

Miracle of Prophet Muhammad PBUH mentioned in Quran

Al-Qamar( The Moon)
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder (the people of Makkah requested Prophet Muhammad SAW to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon).] (1) And if they see a sign, they turn away, and say: “This is continuous magic.” (2)

Al-Quran 54:1-2

SubhanAllah

I shall quote that verse with the verses following it so as to show people the context and help them understand that the split moon is presented by Allah only as an *apocalyptic *sign referring to the end of times and day of judgment. Nothing in the verse allows one to assume that the portent in question was ascribed to Mohammad by Allah as evidence for his prophetic ministry:

Surah 54: 1-8. The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain. And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion. They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts. Yet everything will come to a decision And surely there hath come unto them news whereof the purport should deter, Effective wisdom; but warnings avail not. So withdraw from them (O Muhammad) on the day when the Summoner summoneth unto a painful thing. With downcast eyes,** they come forth from the graves as they were locusts spread abroad**, Hastening toward the summoner; the disbelievers say: **This is a hard day. **

Apparently, the split moon is not a miracle performed by Mohammad, but only a sign heralding the day of judgment.
Actually, the Koran denies that Mohammad could perform any miracles:

**Surah 13: 7. **Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

Interestingly, the Koran most of the time repudiates the fables fabricated by Muslims.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

tomshaikh,

Whether I live or die, I belong to Jesus Christ. He is my Lord, God, and Savior. He lives in me, and I live in Him. He is my Head, and I am a member of His Body. He gives me His Body and Blood for food and drink. He consoles me, and cares for me. He loves me, and wants me to be with Him forever.

I pray to God always to give me the strength to persevere until the end. Christianity is the will of God. It is the will of God for all people. By the grace of God, I am a Christian forever!

God bless,

Rony

Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’m with you my brother/sister. By the grace of God I will remain true to my Jesus, my Savior, my God in whom I put my trust. I shall not put my trust in anyone else. He holds the words of eternal life. Whom else shall I go to?

Peace…

MW

 

[tomshaikh]

Tomshaikh,

a book from God does not change but this does not mean every uncheanging book is from God. Since God’s revelation never changes as the Bible says, we rely on the Bible to see if the Quran and Muhammad fit, and they don’t. So no matter how much you say the Quran is the same, this is simply no proof of its divine origin.

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You have to understand from openmind. It is being 1429 years since Al-Quran came and its Verses is same as it is in a form of book at the time of Caliph Usman. Nothing changed till than. Bible is no more divine form but Al-Quran is in its divine form. Becaussssssssssssseeeeeeeeee Allah/God, Allah/God, Allah/God promises for its safety. Read it before it vanished right after the few hours of judgement day. Warning Form Allah/God!!!

Tom AKA Mohammed

 

[tomshaikh]

I shall quote that verse with the verses following it so as to show people the context and help them understand that the split moon is presented by Allah only as an *apocalyptic *sign referring to the end of times and day of judgment. Nothing in the verse allows one to assume that the portent in question was ascribed to Mohammad by Allah as evidence for his prophetic ministry:

Surah 54: 1-8. The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain. And if they behold a portent they turn away and say: Prolonged illusion. They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts. Yet everything will come to a decision And surely there hath come unto them news whereof the purport should deter, Effective wisdom; but warnings avail not. So withdraw from them (O Muhammad) on the day when the Summoner summoneth unto a painful thing. With downcast eyes,** they come forth from the graves as they were locusts spread abroad**, Hastening toward the summoner; the disbelievers say: **This is a hard day. **

Apparently, the split moon is not a miracle performed by Mohammad, but only a sign heralding the day of judgment.
Actually, the Koran denies that Mohammad could perform any miracles:

**Surah 13: 7. **Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

Interestingly, the Koran most of the time repudiates the fables fabricated by Muslims.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

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I will declare that what ever you said is wrong i donot have to read and see what verses you are talking about. Coz it will be different meaning. I try my best all the time but your way of understand of Al-Quran is wrong. Note: Its not Prophet Muhammad pbuh words but Allah/God words. You all think that you people have upperhand on everybody. All prophets is from MiddleEast and you know how they look like. If you have problem with Prophet Muhammad that how will you follow him. Then you are in big conjecture. MiddleEast is not a Freezing Place. Trying to take out the ego.Thats All

 

[Jimdandy]

It amazes me how people cannot see that God brings His Word to all people in their own languages, customs and cultures-yes, Christians believe Jesus wants them to preach the Good News to every one BUT He wants Christians to LIVE the Gospels by spreading peace and love. (Teach by example, not criticism.)
God will ask you: How much love was there in your evangelizing?-Not how many did you convince to agree with you

But first, one must be at peace with one’s self-then the beliefs of others are easier to understand.

Tom, I salute your faith and your compassion

 

[planten]

planten,

Peace be with you

Christians call the Holy Trinity a Mystery of the Faith. No human terms can ever exhaust this Mystery of Faith. No human person can fully understand the Trinity. …
In Old Testament, there were hints of the Trinity, but its revelation came to us in Jesus Christ. This is because God intervened in salvation history in stages, until the fullness of time when mankind was ready for the revelation of the Father’s Son and Spirit. …

The One God revealed to us the Trinity. Christians believe what God has revealed.
God does not have three parts. This is not how we understand the Holy Trinity. The One God is three Qnome. Each Qnoma is fully God, not a third of God. …

It is not “gnome”, it’s “Qnome” with a Qop, not a Gamal. Qnome is plural (not gnomas).
As I mentioned earlier, in the Old Testament, there were hints of the Trinity, but the Trinity was not revealed until the revelation of Jesus Christ. …

God bless,

Rony

** I have read all your post. I agree to you and believe that christianity is a mysterious religion, full of mysteries.
About Qnome, you have treid to justify it. But surely the Jews should have known it before you if it was there.

Did God the father tell you about Trinity. NO. He told you that he is the Father. I doubt it. But because Father is mentioned in bible and so is the son. Also because there is mention of holy spirit there, you yourself gave importance to these three things and made them up into god or gods. Otherwise God never told you that formula. Please tell me where it is explicitly written in the bible that there are three gods, that the father is a god that Jesus is also a god and that holy spirit is a god and that all three are gods and that all three are again combined into one god.

This all man made (manufacture). Don’t mind, we feelthat there was no need for the church to enter into those difficulties of making three gods and then running back into the one god.

Talking about mysteries, Jesus is a man and a god and a prophet too. That is another mystery. How come like that?

How come a god (Jesus) could die too. That is a mystery. And the God needed to come to this wretched world as a human being. That was never before at any time in the world in any part of the world. Please think about it. Why was that? That could be another mystery. May I take a break now, but no hard feelings. Wish you well in your beliefs which are all mostly a mystery to us.**