Moslem leader speaks on Women

[cestusdei]

If you did see it, you’d call them unruly rioters. They’re protesting his comments peacefully. Are you saying they should do it violently, and if they don’t, they’re bad people?

Complete hogwash. This is not the law anywhere except Pakistan, and low incidences of reporting plague America and Australia…and little wonder, considering how victims are treated, and the light sentences that offenders get.

Again, your argument is garbage. Totally wrong on Islamic law. But it’s true, underreporting is a worldwide problem…blaming it on Islamic law is silly though, as it’s a problem in America and Australia too.

If a violent rape is proved in Saudi Arabia or any other strict Islamic country, the offender will definitely be executed. If it’s proved in the US or Australia, he might do a few years in prison and be out in time to enjoy a state funded retirement.

Your cartoonish comparison of Islamic and western legal regimes for rape is designed to bash Islam with dishonesty.

That is one riot I would like to see. A riot against terrorism or this kind of misogny. But I guess you reserve that for cartoonists. You are correct that Pakistini jails are full of women who were raped. Their rapists get off scott free. What a country. What a religion. I think you will find Saudi law is the same as it is elsewhere, don’t kid yourself. We convicted a Saudi here and their embassy protested. In my area a rapist gets 25 years in prison and possible life. We don’t blame the victims.

 

[pro_universal]

We don’t blame the victims.

You’re likely in a place that’s better than Australia, but a rape trial is still brutal for victims. And sometimes juries buy it. And an automatic 25 to life for one rape alone is untrue…it’s not the law anywhere in America.

Your continued hate campaign against muslims is despicable. To be honest, what confuses me is that there isn’t more outrage on this forum about your posts. Maybe most people aren’t reading.

And I have to be honest…reading silly and grossly inaccurate claim after claim about Islam actually increases the prestige of the religion in my eyes. The fact that almost every criticism I see of it is plainly motivated by bigotry and founded on a google education really makes it clear how powerful the logic of the religion is, and how threatening it is to faith of the weak-minded.

 

[cestusdei]

I come from a red state. We don’t like rapists. I guess maybe people on the board are more outraged at your lack of concern for the victims of Islamic persecution and brutality. How is that I am bigoted for objecting to the crucifixion and enslavement of Christian children? I don’t see Muslims carrying the torch, except to light a fire and burn the pope in effigy. If you would simply admit that there is something terribly wrong in Islam and that it needs to be fundamentally reformed then things would be different.

 

[pro_universal]

I come from a red state. We don’t like rapists.

Red states generally have the most regressive rape laws. As in, your wife can’t charge you with rape, etc etc. And there is no place in america with an automatic 25 to life for one rape. Red or blue.

I guess maybe people on the board are more outraged at your lack of concern for the victims of Islamic persecution and brutality. How is that I am bigoted for objecting to the crucifixion and enslavement of Christian children? I don’t see Muslims carrying the torch, except to light a fire and burn the pope in effigy. If you would simply admit that there is something terribly wrong in Islam and that it needs to be fundamentally reformed then things would be different.

You’re bigoted because you only accept evidence that confirms your bigoted views, and reject anything that debunks them.

The most flimsy accusation is good enough for you to launch a tirade against Islam, and the most solid proof is not enough to make you say something good.

Your demands to “admit something is terribly wrong with Islam” are like demands for you to admit that your profession breed child molestors, and that it needs to be fundamentally reformed. And I mean that: It’s just as offensive, just as ignorant, and just as likely to be founded on bias against the target.

 

[cestusdei]

Red states generally have the most regressive rape laws. As in, your wife can’t charge you with rape, etc etc. And there is no place in america with an automatic 25 to life for one rape. Red or blue.

You’re bigoted because you only accept evidence that confirms your bigoted views, and reject anything that debunks them.

The most flimsy accusation is good enough for you to launch a tirade against Islam, and the most solid proof is not enough to make you say something good.

Your demands to “admit something is terribly wrong with Islam” are like demands for you to admit that your profession breed child molestors, and that it needs to be fundamentally reformed. And I mean that: It’s just as offensive, just as ignorant, and just as likely to be founded on bias against the target.

Not in my state. I give you solid proof to say something is wrong with Islam, but you won’t. We actually do reform. It may take us to long, but we address our problems. Islam just says “there is no problem.” You hide your heads in the sand and cover your ears. It won’t go away. Islam must change. It must give up it’s misogny and brutality.

And btw, since Muhammed married a 9 year old and that is not uncommon in Islam you really don’t want to open that can of worms.

 

[pro_universal]

Not in my state.

Yes, in your state.

I give you solid proof to say something is wrong with Islam, but you won’t. We actually do reform. It may take us to long, but we address our problems.

Okay, so how do you know that Islam isn’t reforming? And since when has the Church admitted it was fundamentally wrong and needed to change?

And btw, since Muhammed married a 9 year old and that is not uncommon in Islam you really don’t want to open that can of worms.

Haha, oh boy…Muhammad’s wives has to be the winner for the “most often used last ditch attempt to bash Islam” title.

 

[cestusdei]

Yes indeed in my state. You don’t know where I live. In fact we are constantly reforming as a Church. We recognize human sinfulness in our members. Islam has a bigger problem. They never admit they are responsible for anything. It’s always someone elses fault.

Do you deny Muhammed consummated a marriage with a 9 year old? Even Muslims admit it. They try to justify it. In Iran the current marriage age is…drumroll…9. Saudi’s go to India and pick up child brides. Abuse of boys in also common. There is some Islamic poetry on the subject. The koran itself promises it in paradise. I am sure you know the verses. Just ask your friends about it. If you want to go this route then I have plenty of ammo just waiting.

 

[pro_universal]

Yes indeed in my state. You don’t know where I live.

I don’t have to. There’s no state in America where a simple rape will get you 25 to life. Not one.

In fact we are constantly reforming as a Church. We recognize human sinfulness in our members. Islam has a bigger problem. They never admit they are responsible for anything. It’s always someone elses fault.

Do you recognize human sinfulness in yourself? How about error? If so, what makes you so sure about your blanket condemnations of Islam?

Abuse of boys in also common. There is some Islamic poetry on the subject. The koran itself promises it in paradise. I am sure you know the verses. Just ask your friends about it. If you want to go this route then I have plenty of ammo just waiting.

Yeah, that same charge can’t be levied against other religions .

That the Koran promises this is garbage. No such verses. Let’s see them if you want to keep up that claim.

 

[cestusdei]

Mine does. I doubt you know all our local laws.

I’m not infallible, never claimed to be. But I back up what I say with proof.

Sura 52:24 and 76:19, sounds pretty fishy to me.

 

[pro_universal]

Mine does. I doubt you know all our local laws.

I’m not infallible, never claimed to be. But I back up what I say with proof.

Sura 52:24 and 76:19, sounds pretty fishy to me.

52:24. Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.

76:19:
19. And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.

Haha, you’ve got to be kidding me. If you see child abuse in that, you have seriously got a case of molestation on the brain.

 

[Montalban]

I think that reading the flurries of posts you all put out, alternatively declaring this and demanding that, would be a good way to contract adult-onset ADD.

Is that how you got it? Okay, thanks for the tip!

Just to get it clear: Victorian Law Reform Commission does not equal Australian Law Reform Commission.

I know. I said this already. You said the report came from Victoria. It did not.

It’s amazing…I post some quick info on the problems with treatment of rape victims in Australian law, and what follows are pages and pages of more demands.

The problem is your ‘evidence’ was not what you made it to be. Sorry that people don’t just read your posts and gaze in awe without questioning your evidence.

No amount of proof will be enough to convince you that this is a problem for people other than Muslims, and no amount of proof is too miniscule to let you go on a tirade against Muslims.

That’s what you’ve offered! No amount of proof.

This is religious bigotry in its lowest form, and I’m sad to see it on a Catholic forum. Despite my experiences, I’ve always brought myself to expect better.

Well, when you can’t admit your wrong - that you’ve offered misrepresentation, you can always make emotive appeals of indignation. Oops! You did that already!

 

[Montalban]

Let’s see, how many times have I posted in this thread that the man’s comments were offensive and wrong?

Actually, you’ve misrepresented his opinion as being unrepresentative of the community as whole. That’s what this thread’s about, but you object to that being discussed too! The very fact you try every argument to undermine this is telling!

The comments weren’t ‘wrong’ in an Islamic sense.

 

[pro_universal]

Actually, you’ve misrepresented his opinion as being unrepresentative of the community as whole. That’s what this thread’s about, but you object to that being discussed too! The very fact you try every argument to undermine this is telling!

The comments weren’t ‘wrong’ in an Islamic sense.

Says who?

Sheikh Montalban?

I’m in Australia talking to Muslims daily. I can’t find anyone who thinks the comments were legitimate.

 

[Montalban]

Says who?

Sheikh Montalban?

I’m in Australia talking to Muslims daily. I can’t find anyone who thinks the comments were legitimate.

You’ve got one Moslem on another thread (that he started) saying that he thinks the dress people wear does make a difference in the way people are treated. Does his opinion cancel out yours?

We can look at general attitudes - wait, I did that already - citing two expert sites, which you ignore. Hey, why not go off-topic by making a claim about someone else doing something equally bad? Ooops, you’ve done that too!

But anyway, the good old Sheiks gone on to praise terrorists now.

 

[Montalban]

From the Koran
4:34 The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD’s commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then deserting them in bed, then you may beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I know many Westernized Muslims too who ignorantly claim that the Sheikh’s comments have no basis in Islam. They are just ignorant of their own religion.

Here are the theological bases of the Sheikh’s comments. Veiling in Islam was instituted at the instigation of Umar the peeping Tom, and Allah provided yet another situational verse to satisfy Muhammad’s immediate needs.

Shakir 24:30-31

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do. And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Why is ‘modesty’ so important to Allah? The reason is given in this verse:

Shakir 33:59

O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble (i.e. bothered or harmed); and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

pro:

Let’s see, how many times have I posted in this thread that the man’s comments were offensive and wrong?

Didn’t you say you agree with his comments?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The evidence that it was Umar the peeping Tom who instigated Muhammad ‘revelation’ of the verse of veiling is given in the sahih Bukhari hadith:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 148:
Narrated 'Aisha: The wives of the Prophet used to go to Al-Manasi, a vast open place (near Baqia at Medina) to answer the call of nature at night. 'Umar used to say to the Prophet “Let your wives be veiled,” but Allah’s Apostle did not do so. One night Sauda bint Zam’a the wife of the Prophet went out at ‘Isha’ time and she was a tall lady. 'Umar addressed her and said, “I have recognized you, O Sauda.” He said so, as he desired eagerly that the verses of Al-Hijab (the observing of veils by the Muslim women) may be revealed. So Allah revealed the verses of “Al-Hijab”.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Almost forgot the Sahih Muslim hadith of the same event, also told by Aisha:

Sahih Muslim Book 026, Number 5397:

'A’isha reported that the wives of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah’s Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zama, the wife of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A’isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 8, Number 395:
Narrated Umar al-Khattab: …

And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I (i.e. Umar al-Khattab) said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.’ So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

According to the sahih hadiths Aisha said that following the verses of the veil Muhammad’s wives and other Muslimahs covered their faces to outsiders.

Ibn Kathir said that the women covered their heads with veils so that only one eye was visible.

Now, Muslims today who deny such a practice are in fact not obeying their prophet. So I wouldn’t put much store in modern Westernized Muslims who don’t follow the Sunnah and yet claim all sorts of things about their religion - which can be proven to be untrue from the Islamic religious sources.

 

[pro_universal]

I know many Westernized Muslims too who ignorantly claim that the Sheikh’s comments have no basis in Islam. They are just ignorant of their own religion.

The key here is that the only people calling them ignorant are people like you and Montalban, ie, people who learned Islam from google surveys of answering-islam and other hate sites.

It’s ridiculous to claim you’re more authoritative on what Islam is than Muslims themselves. As many times as you post your claims, they’ll be false.