Moslem leader speaks on Women

[Montalban]

How you love to misrepresent what’s said…

The key here is that the only people calling them ignorant are people like you and Montalban, ie, people who learned Islam from google surveys of answering-Islam and other hate sites.

There are several keys here.
a) you interview a ‘couple of people you know’ -v- Islamic expert opinion
and directly related to this
b) the sites I cited weren’t either googled, nor are they anti-Islamic (they were Islamic sites! - though yes, they are hate sites - hate for women)

It’s ridiculous to claim you’re more authoritative on what Islam is than Muslims themselves. As many times as you post your claims, they’ll be false.

Who made that claim? You’re the one always questioning people’s credentials to comment, but because you know a few people, their views are normative. And the views of the experts which you still won’t deal with, they’re not? What a funny concept of your religion you have.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The key here is that the only people calling them ignorant are people like you and Montalban, ie, people who learned Islam from google surveys of answering-islam and other hate sites.

It’s ridiculous to claim you’re more authoritative on what Islam is than Muslims themselves. As many times as you post your claims, they’ll be false.

Baloney. The fact that I quote AI does not invalidate what I wrote - because you did not show that my evidence was false. All you did was slime a Christian site - how do you think that goes down among the Christians here?

I also did not learn Islam from googling - that should be obvious from my knowledge of Islam. I have given you some hints as to how I derived my knowledge but be that as it may I would gladly debate Islam with any Muslim.

If you think I am claiming authority in Islam you’re mistaken. I merely provide the evidence from Islamic sources - from Islamic scholars and historians. Hence, my authority or otherwise is irrelevant - you have to show my evidence is false and you have singularly failed to do so.

As a person who supposedly has a law degree (I think you are only a law clerk with a legal studies diploma from the way you argue) you should know that evidence is everything. It is the be all and end of all arguments - but all you’ve shown us is your propensity to pull out yet another ad hominem when you’re stuck.

 

[pro_universal]

How you love to misrepresent what’s said…

There are several keys here.
a) you interview a ‘couple of people you know’ -v- Islamic expert opinion

The experts are disagreeing also. It’s right there in the OP.

b) the sites I cited weren’t either googled, nor are they anti-Islamic (they were Islamic sites! - though yes, they are hate sites - hate for women)

Using yahoo to find your cites doesn’t make it more credible than doing a google survey.

Who made that claim? You’re the one always questioning people’s credentials to comment, but because you know a few people, their views are normative. And the views of the experts which you still won’t deal with, they’re not? What a funny concept of your religion you have.

Rodrigo and you both did. Muslims claim that your interpretations of their scriptures and postings of hadiths are wrong, and claim that they mean different things to faithful Muslims.

To deny that they’re correct, and call them liars, is to accuse them of a giant conspiracy.

The fact is, I’ve already posted several Islamic authors on this forum, and you decided that your own little survey of religious texts was more authoritative. You’re not dealing in any facts that don’t confirm your bias, and that’s the main problem here.

 

[pro_universal]

I also did not learn Islam from googling - that should be obvious from my knowledge of Islam. I have given you some hints as to how I derived my knowledge but be that as it may I would gladly debate Islam with any Muslim.

Of course you did. Most of your material just a few months ago was cut and copied directly from sites like “answering-islam.” Even now, some of your material is a straight up cut and copy.

And on top of that, there isn’t a single Muslim who comes here and says “yes, Rodrigo accurately represents our beliefs.”

If you think I am claiming authority in Islam you’re mistaken. I merely provide the evidence from Islamic sources - from Islamic scholars and historians. Hence, my authority or otherwise is irrelevant - you have to show my evidence is false and you have singularly failed to do so.

Sources can be used badly. That you keep ignoring this point shows either that you do not understand it, or that you have no answer.

As a person who supposedly has a law degree (I think you are only a law clerk with a legal studies diploma from the way you argue) you should know that evidence is everything.

Well, your methods of inference certainly explain your views on uneducated views on Islam. If you learn things by ESP, you’re likely to have some nutty beliefs.

It is the be all and end of all arguments - but all you’ve shown us is your propensity to pull out yet another ad hominem when you’re stuck.

Pointing out that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and that no Muslims agree with your views on Islam, isn’t an ad hominem. It’s showing that you’re not actually repeating what Muslims believe.

 

[cestusdei]

The imam in question said what Muslims believe. Let’s keep that in mind.

 

[Montalban]

The imam in question said what Muslims believe. Let’s keep that in mind.

Here’s another Australian Sheikh’s opinion…

Radical sheik blasts judges on rape
Cameron Stewart and Richard Kerbaj
October 31, 2006
THE leader of the nation’s most radical Islamic group has fuelled the Taj Din al-Hilali controversy by accusing Australian judges of discriminating against Muslim rapists.
As Sheik Hilali yesterday took “indefinite leave” from preaching after a “heart attack”, The Australian can reveal Melbourne cleric Sheik Mohammed Omran told his flock on Friday that rapes committed by Australian non-Muslims - such as “bikies” or “football stars” - were treated more leniently than those committed by Muslims.
“I feel there is no justice here. Not 60 years and someone else three years and they did the same crime. Why?” Sheik Omran told worshippers at his Brunswick mosque.
“They make a big fuss about these kids because one of them, his name is Mohamed. Even if you kill someone you don’t go for 60 years,” he said, referring to Sydney’s 2000 gang rapes in which Lebanese Muslim Bilal Skaf was initially sentenced to 55 years’ jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.
“This is where I think everything has gone unbalanced,” Sheik Omran said. “We don’t support criminals or crimes, but at the same time we want justice for everyone.”
Sheik Omran strongly defended the besieged mufti, who until yesterday had defiantly resisted demands from Muslims and the wider community to step aside for likening women to uncovered meat and suggesting rape victims should be held responsible for enticing attackers.
Soon after arriving at Lakemba Mosque yesterday morning for another crisis meeting over the Ramadan sermon that prompted the furore when it was revealed by The Australian last week, Sheik Hilali collapsed and was rushed to hospital.
In a statement issued in his name later, Sheik Hilali - who came under more pressure yesterday when The Australian also uncovered recent comments supporting military jihad against US and Australian forces in Iraq and Afghanistan - said he would step aside.
“The pressure of the last couple of days has had an obvious effect on my health and wellbeing,” the statement said.
“I ask the public to give my family and I some privacy, time and space to recover. I have also asked for indefinite leave from duties at Lakemba Mosque.”
The decision came as the federal Opposition demanded that the Government investigate whether Sheik Hilali’s support of jihad in Iraq and Afghanistan constituted treason and John Howard repeated his advice to Muslims to overthrow their spiritual leader.
“One of the things that does bother me is that when he goes overseas he carries the title of Mufti of Australia and that represents to the world a view of Australian Islam which I feel very uncomfortable with,” the Prime Minister said.
Sheik Hilali - in an interview on Arabic radio a fortnight ago - had also praised Egyptian philosopher Sayyid Qutb, the intellectual mentor of Osama bin Laden.
And yesterday Immigration Department chief Andrew Metcalfe sought advice from the Prime Minister’s office and intelligence agencies about whether he could discuss his knowledge of a 1984 intelligence report warning that Sheik Hilali had links to extremist groups.
Mr Metcalfe said he had a “personal knowledge” of the matter because he was working with the department in a legal capacity at the time.
The intelligence report was provided to the department six years before Sheik Hilali was granted permanent residency.
A former Australian secret agent has alleged the report was shelved because of the importance of the ethnic vote to the Labor Party, which was then in government.
The Weekend Australian revealed that Hawke government immigration minister Chris Hurford tried to have Sheik Hilali deported in 1986.
But senior party figures including treasurer Paul Keating and MP Leo McLeay, whose electorate included the Lakemba Mosque, opposed the move, allegedly for political gain.
When asked about his knowledge of the intelligence report yesterday, Mr Metcalfe said he had “knowledge as to the answer of that question” but was concerned about revealing it because it could breach matters of privacy, national intelligence and protocol surrounding the decisions of a previous government.
con’t…

 

[Montalban]

Sheik Omran, one of the country’s most outspoken and controversial fundamentalist clerics, said on Friday that attacks on Sheik Hilali were attacks on Islam. “His name is a mufti and we should respect that name - we should respect the turban on his head,” Sheik Omran said in the sermon, an audio copy of which was posted on his Ahlus Sunnah Wal-Jamaah Association website yesterday. “This is the sign of a scholar - you are not attacking Sheik Taj here, you are attacking the scholars, you are attacking … Islam.”
Sheik Omran has said bin Laden was a good man and the US, rather than the al-Qa’ida leader, was behind the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001.
Additional reporting: Cath Hart
theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20674017-601,00.html

 

[Sixtus]

While rape is a terrible crime, any woman who gives a man the ‘come on’ by immodest dress, has to take some of the blame.

As for criticising Moslems and Islam, as a Christian, I am really offended that Christians [so called] could stoop so low. Moslems are our brothers and sisters. It is aethism and new age movements you should be concerned with, not another religion that believes in God!!

I for one go on record as distancing myself from such evil. Jesus commanded [not asked but comanded] that we love one another Jn 15: 17. I consider that some of the replies above are nothing short of abuse. Ironic then that the thread is about abuse and some are resorting to abuse to defend it!!

Px Christi

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

It is not the atheists who had stolen the Holy Land from you, nor oppressed you by forcing you into dhimmitude. Atheists did not prevent you from building churches nor repair old ones, and did not force you to step off the road whenever you see one approaching.

Today, atheists do not care what religion you espouse. Not so the Muslims who continue to oppress Christians in Muslim lands.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

It’s ridiculous to claim you’re more authoritative on what Islam is than Muslims themselves.

My goodness! That is so hopeless. That’s like saying you can only understand Nazism if you are skin-head. Or, you can only understand KKK if you are a Klan member. What non-sense. Do you have to be a buddhist to understand budhism? Do you have to be a christian to be authoritive in christianity? I don’t think so… Following a religion is a matter of free will. But being authoritive takes intelligence.

As many times as you post your claims, they’ll be false.

An intelligent debate is truely hopeless now. Claims are being shot down even before they are being claimed.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Of course you did. Most of your material just a few months ago was cut and copied directly from sites like “answering-islam.” Even now, some of your material is a straight up cut and copy.

What does it matter where I get my evidence?The AI team quotes from the hadiths and the quran. You did not show the evidence to be false - all you do is to slime Christians.

pro:

And on top of that, there isn’t a single Muslim who comes here and says “yes, Rodrigo accurately represents our beliefs.”

Like we would expect them to? Of course not. I am proven right by my evidence from the quran, hadiths and the tafsirs. What have you provided?

pro:

Sources can be used badly. That you keep ignoring this point shows either that you do not understand it, or that you have no answer.

You have to show that but you haven’t. All you do is slime.

pro:

Well, your methods of inference certainly explain your views on uneducated views on Islam. If you learn things by ESP, you’re likely to have some nutty beliefs.

Is it ESP to live under Islam for years? You say you have spoken to several Muslims in a Western country - that gives you the right to speak about Islam? Some members of my family are Muslims - that’s how I know about Islam.

pro:

Pointing out that you don’t know what you’re talking about, and that no Muslims agree with your views on Islam, isn’t an ad hominem. It’s showing that you’re not actually repeating what Muslims believe.

You haven’t pointed out anything of the sort. All you ever do is slime.

I will give the example of the Islam is the religion of peace polemics - how about showing us surah 9 is peaceful? How about showing us Umar didn’t know what he was saying when he claimed Muhammad told his followers to convert by the sword? How about you show us Ibn Kaldun did not know what he’s talking about when he said Islam was spread by the sword?

You have no idea, pro. None at all.

 

[Montalban]

While rape is a terrible crime, any woman who gives a man the ‘come on’ by immodest dress, has to take some of the blame.

Rape is not a crime about sex, but of power. The ‘come on’ is not an issue. Are there more rapes in a nudist resort than in your neighbourhood? You’d think so given that the women are all going around nude.

As for criticising Moslems and Islam, as a Christian, I am really offended that Christians [so called] could stoop so low.

If you saw someone in danger, you’d not help them to realise?

Moslems are our brothers and sisters. It is atheism and new age movements you should be concerned with, not another religion that believes in God!

We are assailed from many sides. To ignore one simply because they say that they believe in a god would be rather silly. Islam has been the enemy of Christianity for 1,400 years

I for one go on record as distancing myself from such evil. Jesus commanded [not asked but comanded] that we love one another Jn 15: 17.

Where did Jesus say “If you see injustice, stay quiet” ?

I consider that some of the replies above are nothing short of abuse. Ironic then that the thread is about abuse and some are resorting to abuse to defend it!!

If you wish to bury your head in the sand and pretend that evils don’t exist, that’s entirely up to you. For you what right have you to challenge any evil?

 

[Montalban]

My goodness! That is so hopeless. That’s like saying you can only understand Nazism if you are skin-head. Or, you can only understand KKK if you are a Klan member. What non-sense. Do you have to be a buddhist to understand budhism? Do you have to be a christian to be authoritive in christianity? I don’t think so… Following a religion is a matter of free will. But being authoritive takes intelligence.

It’s ridiculous, indeed. Worst still is when Islamic evidence is offered, instead of him saying “No, it’s wrong, because this is the consensus of opinion on it interpretation…” He just says “No, it’s wrong for you to quote this”

That’s Islam for you

 

[kellie]

Are you saying that the media should have kept mum for fear of seeming to have ‘picked on’ him? What a strange world you live in down there in Victoria - where the Victorian government is backing a Moslem attack on freedom of speech by a Christian group “Catch the Fire Ministries”

No, I am not saying the media should of stayed quiet.
And I did not say the media were picking on him, but it seems to be the trend to highlight in the media nowadays anything about Islam.
These trends of who to highlight in our media come and go, but the underlying issue of rape and our judicial system stays constant.
The media should use their power to lobby changes for victims of rape.

 

[cestusdei]

No women asks for or deserves to be raped. If you daughter or wife was raped and the rapist said they deserve it because of how they dress would you buy it? No, you would strangle him. And with Muslims it is worse. If they show an inch of ankle that’s an excuse. It is ridiculous to suggest that the victim deserved to be attacked. But blaming the real victim for Muslim misbehavior is an old story. Just consider 911 or the crusades.

 

[Damascus]

Pro, Rodrigo, Montalban,

I am praying for you all now.

Please calm down. Rape is not a good thing, we all agree?
Right?
Even if the corrupt leaders say it is.
We all know the guy is smoking something. Right? Maybe some alcohol has dimmed his brain? Give him prayers.
He can be dangerous if people take him seriously.
Pray he comes to his senses.
He is insane.

 

[pro_universal]

My goodness! That is so hopeless. That’s like saying you can only understand Nazism if you are skin-head. Or, you can only understand KKK if you are a Klan member. What non-sense. Do you have to be a buddhist to understand budhism? Do you have to be a christian to be authoritive in christianity? I don’t think so… Following a religion is a matter of free will. But being authoritive takes intelligence.

This is missing the point though. You can’t claim to know better what the KKK teaches than David Duke, for example. Of course you can understand it without being a member; but you have to take members at their word for what they actually believe. Reading “Social Darwinism” from the 19th century and then saying “see, I know all about the KKK” would just be silly, wouldn’t it?

The problem is that these posters don’t want to take Muslims’ word for what they believe; they want to go to the original texts themselves and fashion their own theology, and then call Muslims liars when they accuse them of having it wrong.

An intelligent debate is truely hopeless now. Claims are being shot down even before they are being claimed.

You misunderstood the claim.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The most authoritative source in Islam is the Quran and then the hadiths. I do not ‘fashion’ my Islamic theology - I quote the Quran and hadiths and what they show is unambiguous.

You claim that I have no ‘authority’ to depict Islam in a negative light - yet you, who claim to be non-Muslim, living in Australia and only spoken to several Muslims, have the presumption to speak on behalf of Muslims.

In contrast I have far more links to Islam than you will ever have (presupposing you’re telling the truth about yourself, of course).

Why should I or anyone else take Islamic apologetics which I know to be contrary to the Quran and the Sunnah?

Yes, I know… when all else fails you just slime.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

While rape is a terrible crime, any woman who gives a man the ‘come on’ by immodest dress, has to take some of the blame.

**That is the worst thing I think you’ve said thus far. Victims of rape are not responsible for the rape, not in anyway. Sounds like you’ve been reading too much Camille Paglia. **

As for criticising Moslems and Islam, as a Christian, I am really offended that Christians [so called] could stoop so low. Moslems are our brothers and sisters. It is aethism and new age movements you should be concerned with, not another religion that believes in God!!

Even the Devil and demons in hell believe in God. Simple belief is not enough and we have been warned that the Devil will appear as an angel of light. Do not be fooled into thinking that just because someone believes in God that they are our ally. God is our ally.

I for one go on record as distancing myself from such evil.

Duly noted.

Jesus commanded [not asked but comanded] that we love one another Jn 15: 17.

Yes, He did. I do not hate Muslims. Perhaps some people find that difficult to believe? In fact, I admire Sufi Muslims a great deal but I do take issue with Muslims who prefer terror over peaceful means of working out problems. The real question, for me, who outnumbers who? The peaceful Muslims or the Islamoterrorists? And besides, Christ did tell us to love, so that means we must correct people when they are wrong and when they commit evil. Failure to do so is not love.

I consider that some of the replies above are nothing short of abuse. Ironic then that the thread is about abuse and some are resorting to abuse to defend it!!

I see no abuse coming from anyone. I see some heated opinions and some disrespect, but no abuse.

 

[Montalban]

This is missing the point though. You can’t claim to know better what the KKK teaches than David Duke, for example.

No, you miss the point. The point is your main retort is that everyone’s got you wrong. Oddly you also claim not to be a Moslem so how you can both know we’ve got it wrong, and claim that only a Moslem can properly know Islam is beyond logic; you refute yourself yet again. You seem to know Islam without playing by your own rule.

Without at all engaging in debate over the points made, you simply repeat mantra-like the same claim.

And you also go on about how ‘we’ can’t know Islam better than a sheikh, so… (drum-roll)
**Here’s another sheikh in Australia - that makes three now. **

WA Muslim leader criticised for backing Al Hilaly’s comments

A Muslim leader in Western Australia has come under fire after saying there is some truth to comments made by Sydney cleric Sheikh Taj el-Din Al Hilaly about women and sexual assault.

The Islamic Council of WA’s religious adviser, Abdul Jalil Ahmad, says while rape is the man’s fault, **women should take preventative measures to avoid being targeted. **

He says those measures include covering up and being accompanied when outdoors.

But the chairman of the Muslim Reference Group, Ameer Ali, says rape should not be linked to the way a woman dresses.

“Evil men are evil,” he said.

"They are raping children, they are raping old people, they are raping people covered, they are raping people uncovered.

"They are raping in the bedrooms, they are raping outside their houses, now how can we generalise this?

“These are mentally deranged people.”
abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200610/s1777679.htm
And yes I note that there’s a Moslem disagreeing. However none in Hilaly’s mosque spoke up when the speech was given!

The problem is that these posters don’t want to take Muslims’ word for what they believe; they want to go to the original texts themselves and fashion their own theology, and then call Muslims liars when they accuse them of having it wrong.

How you can so misrepresent what’s been said. I for one have quoted many ‘modern’ Moslems opinions. You, for one have continued to ignore that.

You misunderstood the claim.

No one but you has done this. You refute yourself! You live by misrepresentation and diversion.