Moslem leader speaks on Women

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Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks
Richard Kerbaj
October 26, 2006
THE nation’s most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don’t wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned “meat” that attracts voracious animals.

In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who “sway suggestively” and wore make-up and immodest dress … “and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years”.

“But the problem, but the problem all began with who?” he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney’s southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years’ jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it … whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

“The uncovered meat is the problem.”

The sheik then said: “If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred.”

He said women were “weapons” used by “Satan” to control men.

“It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa).”

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali’s remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia’s mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a “tool” worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. “It’s a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don’t wear the headscarf doesn’t mean that you’re considered fresh meat for sale,” the former member of John Howard’s Muslim advisory board told The Australian. “The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves.”

Australia’s most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not “detract or add to a person’s moral standards”, while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was “ignorant and naive” for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

“Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime,” he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was “disgusted and offended” by Shiek Hilali’s comments. “I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia’s Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense.”

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about “adultery and theft”, a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as “meat” and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

He told The Australian the message he intended to convey was: “If a woman who shows herself off, she is to blame … but a man should be able to control himself”. He said if a woman is “covered and respectful” she “demands respect from a man”. “But when she is cheap, she throws herself at the man and cheapens herself.”

Sheik Hilali also insisted his references to the Sydney gang rapes were to illustrate that Skaf was guilty and worthy of receiving such a harsh sentence.

Con’t…
 
Waleed Ali said Sheik Hilali was “normalising immoral sexual behaviour” by comparing women to meat and men to animals and entirely blaming women for being victims.

“It’s basically saying that the immoral response of men to women who are not fully covered is as natural and as inevitable as the response of an animal tempted by food,” he said.

“But (unlike animals) men are people who have moral responsibilities and the capability in engaging in moral action.”

Revelation of the mufti’s comments comes after he criticised Mr Howard last month in The Australian for saying a minority of migrant men mistreated their women. Sheik Hilali said such a minority was found in all faiths. “Those who don’t respect their women are not true Muslims.”

“There’s a small percentage found among all religions, but we don’t recognise ours as Muslims.”

Aziza Abdel-Halim said Sheik Hilali’s remarks during Ramadan were inaccurate and upsetting to the Muslim community.

“They are below and beyond any comment (and) do not deserve any consideration.”

theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html

Cleric apologises for ‘meat’ sermon
October 26, 2006
AUSTRALIA’S senior Muslim cleric Sheik Taj Aldin al-Hilali has apologised for any offence caused by his comments that immodestly dressed women provoke sexual attacks.

The Australian newspaper reported today that, in a sermon delivered last month, Sheik al-Hilali likened scantily clad women to uncovered meat eaten by animals.

“I unreservedly apologise to any woman who is offended by my comments,” he said in a statement today.

“I had only intended to protect women’s honour, something lost in The Australian presentation of my talk.”
theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20649327-601,00.html

In short he genuniely believes that he’s advocating the protection of women by the measures he suggests! How sad. He really needs a decent education.

Any thoughts?
 
Notice that every single Muslim leader quoted in the article condemned the remarks.

There’s no one supporting the guy. So what’s the news about Islam?

Islam condemns disrespect for women. After all, why would everyone be opposing this guy if it didn’t?
 
Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks

THE nation’s most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don’t wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned “meat” that attracts voracious animals.

Notice that every single Muslim leader quoted in the article condemned the remarks.

There’s no one supporting the guy. So what’s the news about Islam?

Islam condemns disrespect for women. After all, why would everyone be opposing this guy if it didn’t?
Notice the remark was made by a senior Muslim in the first place.
Of course it’s good and only normal that others condemn such remarks.
 
Notice that every single Muslim leader quoted in the article condemned the remarks.

There’s no one supporting the guy. So what’s the news about Islam?
It shows you that the article attempts to be balanced. However this Sheikh who said this thing is the leader of the biggest Islamic community in Australia AND another sheikh said the same sort of things just a few years ago.

No one’s asking this dude to step down, and his ‘apology’ is simply because he believes his comments were to protect women.
Islam condemns disrespect for women.
Does it?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.’

zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, “If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

Allah’s Apostle said, “If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.”

(Ibid)

Keeping in mind your sheikh Hamza Yusuf’s comments about many repetitions in Hadith means it’s on par with the Koran, I hope to see you now admit that this is so regarding accursed women 🙂
 
As mentioned above another Islamic cleric made the same sort of statements not that long ago…

Australian Cleric: Raped Women have Themselves to Blame
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/005868.php
After all, why would everyone be opposing this guy if it didn’t?
No, Islam says that women are deficient in intelligence compared to man. In Islam, if you treat all women alike (less than man) that’s ‘justice’. That’s the very nature of the problem with this Sheikh, he believes his comments were about respecting and protecting women. Thus those who claim women are protected in Islam are a plenty. One just has to discern what exactly Moslems mean by this.

Are women equal in Islam? “Men have fear of your Lord, who created you from a single soul. From that soul He created its mate and through them He bestrewed the earth with countless men and women” (Sura 4:1). This clearly suggests that men and women were created from the same substance. Muslims will point to this as ‘proof’ that men and women are considered equal in Islam. However, Sura 2:228 states “Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women.” However this difference in status runs much deeper. In legal testimony, “Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses” (Sura 2:282), in other words a woman’s testimony is worth half of a man’s. Although the case was a contractual one, it does not state that such a ruling shall be limited to this type of case only; a fact that is accepted by many Muslim scholars; that it is a general rule for most court cases.

But I will give some more ‘modern’ Islamic evidence below…
 
Notice the remark was made by a senior Muslim in the first place.
Of course it’s good and only normal that others condemn such remarks.
That’s the point, exactly! He’s considered by many as the most senior of Islamic clerics in this country. As noted above (after Pro_Universal’s post) I cited another reference to a different cleric in this country who made similar remarks.

Here’s another example of Islamic opinion…

No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality…‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1105&ln=eng

Further, from the same site

" The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women."

"And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women. Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do. This is well known, for most of the reputable scholars in the world are men. There are some women who are more intelligent and have better memories than some men, but this does not cancel out the general rule. Most cases are as we have described above.

With regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation. "

Thus when this Sheikh was calling for women to be kept at home he probably very sincerely thought that this was indeed the best way of protecting them. He’s just so out of touch with western values.
 
It shows you that the article attempts to be balanced. However this Sheikh who said this thing is the leader of the biggest Islamic community in Australia AND another sheikh said the same sort of things just a few years ago.

No one’s asking this dude to step down, and his ‘apology’ is simply because he believes his comments were to protect women.

Does it?

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30:

Narrated Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.’

zawaj.com/articles/sahihbukhari.html

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 31:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Evil omen was mentioned before the Prophet: The Prophet said, “If there is evil omen in anything, it is in the house, the woman and the horse.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 32:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad:

Allah’s Apostle said, “If at all there is bad omen, it is in the horse, the woman, and the house.”

(Ibid)

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid:

The Prophet said, “After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women.”

(Ibid)

Keeping in mind your sheikh Hamza Yusuf’s comments about many repetitions in Hadith means it’s on par with the Koran, I hope to see you now admit that this is so regarding accursed women 🙂
oh, is this true?..need some answers here… 🙂
 
If no one supports the guy then why is his view so prevalent in Islam? Why are women assaulted in Europe for not “covering?” Why was there a best selling book on how to beat your wife in Holland? Sounds like this guy got caught…saying what Muslims really think.
 
oh, is this true?..need some answers here…
Islam does believe in justice for women, it’s just a different idea of justice

If you treat all women oppressively, based on a belief that they are of their nature inferior, then that’s ‘justice’.

It’s out of step with our way of thinking but it’s worth noting that when Moslems talk about ‘justice’ they mean something different.

This Sheikh’s daugter has come out to defend her father, claiming that her dad’s always supported women’s rights.

This is probably true, in an Islamic sense. He’s fighting for the rights of women to be treated the way women in Islam are supposed to be treated; less than men.

What’s also disturbing is the first part of this bit of the speech…
part of the speech… (in the context he’s saying Christians and Jews will end up in hell)

"Those atheists, people of the book (Christians and Jews), where will they end up? In Surfers Paradise? On the Gold Coast?
"Where will they end up? In hell. And not part-time. For eternity. They are the worst in God’s creation.
"Who commits the crimes of theft? The man or the woman? The man. That’s why the man was mentioned before the woman when it comes to theft because his responsibility is providing.
"But when it comes to adultery, it’s 90 per cent the women’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it’s a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).
"Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years.
“But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, scholar al-Rafihi says: ‘If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.’ Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it.”
"If you take a kilo of meat, and you don’t put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you’re crazy. Isn’t this true?
"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.
"If the meat was covered, the cats wouldn’t roam around it. If the meat is inside the fridge, they won’t get it.
"If the meat was in the fridge and it (the cat) smelled it, it can bang its head as much as it wants, but it’s no use.
"If the woman is in her boudoir, in her house and if she’s wearing the veil and if she shows modesty, disasters don’t happen.
"That’s why he said she owns the weapon of seduction.
"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger to achieve my needs. Satan tells women you’re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons.
"The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place.

theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20653032-601,00.html
 
Is this to be taken seriously?

Maybe the guy was drinking when he said all this stuff. I dont buy it. Islam cant be wrong here, so this man must be wrong. How can they both be right?

So, I am going to side with Islam on this one and consider these remarks made from a man who had one too many. Filthy wine does that to people.
 
Westernised Muslims may decry the Sheikh’s speech as ‘unacceptable’ but he is merely echoing the general consensus in Islam. Go and live in an Islamic country and you’ll hear this sort of thing all the time - blaming the woman when she’s been raped - especially if she is dressed according to Western fashion and not ‘modestly’ according to Islamic style.

Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is haram (forbidden) and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it.

This is the fatwa from Sheikh Muhammad Saleh Al-Munajjid:
Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.
irfi.org/articles/articles_351_400/rape_against_muslim_women.htm
islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1125407868541

This opinion is held by no less an authority than Sheikh Qaradawi:
Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim cleric currently on a controversial visit to Britain, believes that female rape victims should be punished if dressed “immodestly” when assaulted.
The Koran calls upon Muslim women in general to preserve their dignity and modesty, just to save themselves from any harassment.
“So for a rape victim to be absolved from guilt, she must not be the one that opens . . . her dignity for deflowering.”
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/11/ncleric11.xml

Rukhsana.Imam Abdullah Hakim Quick, president of the Islamic Social Service and Resource Association in Toronto"

The hijab makes a woman feel safe. Safe from crime, molestation, abuse and rape. Is there a better tool for women empowerment?" he asks.–
islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=36607
 
I’m actually surprised that there’s no outcry from the feminists in our country…perhaps they’re too busy attacking the people who are trying to protect them…conservatives? 😛

In Pax Christi
Andrew
 
My hat goes off to the muslim women who condemned the remarks. A TV reporter interviewed some people in Lakemba (the suburb where the Sheikh made the comments) and unfortunately some agreed with him. But it was refreshing to see the women condemn, even calling for his resignation. Some Government officials wanted him deported, but that couldnt happen. As one female politician stated, The boys who committed the Gang Rapes in Sydney told the Court that their religion allowed them to have sex/rape girls like… Now with the Sheikh making comments like these, that excuse will be used more frequently in Court.

I was really impressed with the women! They actually condemned his remarks on TV.
 
… There’s no one supporting the guy. So what’s the news about Islam? …
Hi pro_universal,

I live in Sydney, and it has been awful over the last couple of days. The media, and talk-back radio, is full of complaints to this sheik. The muslim community here is under real pressure.

There are muslims who support him. In fact, the Lebanese Muslim Association, who have a high profile in Sydney, started a meeting on Thursday 26th at 6:30 PM. The media waited for their meeting to adjourn. Eventually, it did… at 11:45 pm. What happened? Nothing. They just accepted the sheik’s apology.

And it’s not the first time. Back in April 2005, another sheik, Faiz Mohamad, said a rape victim has “no one to blame but herself [because] she displayed her beauty to the entire world.” Australia was outraged so he tried to correct himself by saying “she is eligible for rape.”

This is a hot issue here is Sydney. Politicians, feminists, everybody is outraged over these comments by the sheik. It is dominating our media, and muslims are under pressure for answers. And they are under pressure to make him step down.
 
If no one supports the guy then why is his view so prevalent in Islam? Why are women assaulted in Europe for not “covering?” Why was there a best selling book on how to beat your wife in Holland? Sounds like this guy got caught…saying what Muslims really think.
Which book is this?
 
Hi pro_universal,

I live in Sydney, and it has been awful over the last couple of days. The media, and talk-back radio, is full of complaints to this sheik. The muslim community here is under real pressure.
I’m living in the ACT, and I frequent Sydney. I see the pressure, but it’s unwarrante, since almost every muslim you meet is infuriated by the remarks. Rape victims are treated very poorly (regardless of religion) in general in this country (at least, compared to America), and I think everyone should be under pressure, not just Muslims.
There are muslims who support him. In fact, the Lebanese Muslim Association, who have a high profile in Sydney, started a meeting on Thursday 26th at 6:30 PM. The media waited for their meeting to adjourn. Eventually, it did… at 11:45 pm. What happened? Nothing. They just accepted the sheik’s apology.
They certainly didn’t endorse his views, and I agree, they didn’t go far enough. They should side with the litany of Muslim complaints about him.
And it’s not the first time. Back in April 2005, another sheik, Faiz Mohamad, said a rape victim has “no one to blame but herself [because] she displayed her beauty to the entire world.” Australia was outraged so he tried to correct himself by saying “she is eligible for rape.”
Again, this is a common defense in criminal cases where no Muslims are involved. It’s an Australian problem.
This is a hot issue here is Sydney. Politicians, feminists, everybody is outraged over these comments by the sheik. It is dominating our media, and muslims are under pressure for answers. And they are under pressure to make him step down.
As well they should be outraged, but every indication is that Muslims are outraged by it too. I haven’t met a single one here who thinks what he said was legitimate.

And on the flipside of that coin, numerous Australians accused of rape have been arguing in their defence cases for years that women “invite rape.” (And juries often side with them…rape is one of the toughest crimes to prosecute here.) But that’s not news; it’s only news when a Muslim who isn’t accused of rape makes the claim.

I just think it’s ironic…we have a criminal system here that victimizes rape victims all over again, and usually fails to convict the attacker. But that’s not big news…the big news is that some Muslim somewhere said something wrong and offensive about victims.
 
… As well they should be outraged, but every indication is that Muslims are outraged by it too. I haven’t met a single one here who thinks what he said was legitimate…
Recently, our State Government Opposition Leader, John Brogden, make a private joke about Asian women. The joke got out. And Brogden stepped down from Government. It ruined his career. (He also attempted suicide a few days later… but survived, thankfully.)

No sitting on the fence here, pro_universal. Should the Sheik step down from his Office?
 
Recently, our State Government Opposition Leader, John Brogden, make a private joke about Asian women. The joke got out. And Brogden stepped down from Government. It ruined his career. (He also attempted suicide a few days later… but survived, thankfully.)

No sitting on the fence here, pro_universal. Should the Sheik step down from his Office?
I already agreed with you there, they didn’t go far enough and he should step down. Especially since he’s representing a minority group in a western country, he should be held to the strictest standards.

I see in this also another problem I recognize from America: time spent bashing Muslims is a good way to obscure very real problems that have nothing to do with Islam or Muslims. Muslims didn’t write the penal codes that victimize rape survivors in very real ways, but on that issue, the papers are silent.

But when a Muslim makes these sorts of comments, everyone is all over it to say how bad and backwards Muslims are. Where’s the demand to end the backwardness of a criminal system that does worse to women than what the “mufti”'s words will ever do?
 
I just think it’s ironic…we have a criminal system here that victimizes rape victims all over again, and usually fails to convict the attacker. But that’s not big news…the big news is that some Muslim somewhere said something wrong and offensive about victims.
Hi pro,
I didn’t realise you were in Australia too.
I agree with your post here.
Even though I despise what the sheik said, I think a lot of this outrage in the media is exactly the media.
They have picked up on this as it seems to be the trend to “pick on” Muslims.
There is never an outrage like this about the way rapes are handled within our judicial system, yet that system is just as deplorable as these comments by the sheik.
 
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