Moslem pray for Muhamad to enter the heaven

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so although the prophet was illiterate, it seems he had a very good memory.

seems he was an extremely successful businessman (hence the marriage to Khadijah) but he could not read or write.

it just doesn’t add up at all.

probably that’s why the satanic verses came into the picture.
 
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r.gonzales:
uthmaan, who was also one of prophet muhammad’s closest companions, the Quran was recompiled and the verses and chapters put into their proper orders - this is the book we havewith us today

he had scribes that would write down the revelation as it was revealed, along with his words and teachings. all of this has been preserved and can easily be verified.
  1. Why ? Why did Allah not get it right the first time ? How come Allah left it to people who were not directly involved to decided on the correct sequence of verses ?
  2. Where is this ? How can it be verified ? Uthman burned all the base documents, remember ?
 
i’m sorry, but the more i read your posts, the less sense they make to me.
We bless you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have hidden these things to the wise and learned, but revealed them to the little ones.
btw, just curious, but is english your first language?
:nope: But I speak English, Tagalog, Waray-waray, Cebuano, and now practicing Spanish. Let me know if you can’t understand my English and I will speak to you in Waray-waray. OK?

Pio
 
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un_dhimmi:
so although the prophet was illiterate, it seems he had a very good memory.

seems he was an extremely successful businessman (hence the marriage to Khadijah) but he could not read or write.

it just doesn’t add up at all.

probably that’s why the satanic verses came into the picture.
Yep, nothing adds up at all! This is how I feel after reading their explanations::whacky:
 
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Booklover:
Yep, nothing adds up at all! This is how I feel after reading their explanations::whacky:
wow…you guys actually think it was common to be able to read and write in the year 600?

Go get a history text book man, the people that could read and write were getting payed to do it, as scribes.

So it isnt at all strange that he was a successful businessman and couldnt read or write.
 
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Eetaq:
wow…you guys actually think it was common to be able to read and write in the year 600?

Go get a history text book man, the people that could read and write were getting payed to do it, as scribes.

So it isnt at all strange that he was a successful businessman and couldnt read or write.
I meant that nothing about Islam makes sense to me!
 
That’s gerat booklover because nothing about your faith makes sense to me either . Maybe we can help each other? hmmm, you know share **real ** information.

wa salam
 
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un_dhimmi:
and when you throw the concept of Hadith into the mix on which a whole lot of muslim doctrine is based, the mind boggles !

There is apparenty a science of the Hadith whereby a Hadith is classified as Strong or Weak !

and these very same people who can’t even decide if a hadith is ‘strong’ or ‘weak’ come here and make ridiculuous statements like
perhaps you should try reading about this “apparent” science and find out how hadeeths are classified as authentic or weak. perhaps it won’t be so mind-boggling then.

a couple introductory works for those interested:
an introduction to the sciences of hadeeth.
tayseer mustalahil-hadeeth (zipped ms word doc).
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un_dhimmi:
so although the prophet was illiterate, it seems he had a very good memory.
and having a good memory automatically negates the possibility of being illiterate? :confused: i fail to see your logic here.
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un_dhimmi:
seems he was an extremely successful businessman (hence the marriage to Khadijah) but he could not read or write.
khadeejah was the successful business woman. prophet muhammad worked as a merchant for her. back in the day, money either gold or silver. you don’t need to read to be able to tell those two apart. nor do you need to be able to read or write in order to count or to know how much certain goods are worth when you barter.
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un_dhimmi:
it just doesn’t add up at all.
perhaps you should get your facts straight. then things might start to make sense for you. you could start by reading this: the sealed necktar: biography of prophet muhammad.
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un_dhimmi:
probably that’s why the satanic verses came into the picture.
an exellent clarification regarding this story’s falsehood can be found in the book, “sirat al-nabi and the orientalists” by muhammad mohar ali, vol.2, pgs.683-702. it’s much too long to post here, so i’ll quote a small portion of it.
The threefold Qur’anic evidenc against the story is decisive. Apart from that, however, a little careful examination of the reports would at once expose the speciousness of the story. The story has come down in about a dozen varying versions, each version having a couple or more different chains of narration (isnad). These isnads have been critically examined by a number of both classical and modern experts and all agree in holding that each version is technically mursal, i.e., its isnad does not go up beyond the second generation (tabi’un) after the Prophet.
if you check those links i posted above to the introductory works on the sciences of hadeeth, you will find that a mursal chain is one which is not connected, i.e., there is a gap in the chain between narrators. such a chain is deemed as weak and unreliable.
 
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ronald:
Hi Every One, Before Azan Mahgrib At Around 6 O’clock On Television In Indonesia There Is Always Spoken An Ayat From Qur’an Which Say
" God Almighty Please Give Muhammad An Honored Place As You Promise" So…where Is Muhammad Now?

But Jesus Say " I Am The Way, The Truth, And The Life, There Is No Way To Father’s House Except Through Me.
6 feet under. No one is allowed into heaven until after they have been judged, and since in Islam no one man is better than the rest prophet muhammed peace be upon him is waiting for that time as well.
 
Eetaq said:
6 feet under. No one is allowed into heaven until after they have been judged, and since in Islam no one man is better than the rest prophet muhammed peace be upon him is waiting for that time as well.

and the one who will judge is Jesus. That’s becuase Jesus is the best and therefore it is He who will come from heaven(with Imam Mahdi in Qur’an) on last day. A man in the grave(Muhammad) is better than a Man in heaven (Jesus)? my goodness.
 
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r.gonzales:
yes, in his grave, just like every other human being that has died - including all other prophets and messengers. this is what we musilms believe.

as for jesus, then we don’t believe he is dead - that’s why he’s not in his grave. we don’t even believe he died like you believe. to add to that, we don’t even believe he was crucified, like you believe.

as for followers praying for their leaders being sad, Allah tells us in the Quran to ask for forgiveness for the those who preceded us in faith. and we ask Allah to shower His blessings upon all His prophets and messengers. i fail to see how that can be sad. asking for these things are considered good deeds, and the more you do it, the more deeds you accumulate. there’s nothing sad about that.

as for what you mention about the people in heaven, muslims don’t believe that anyone is in paradise yet. paradise will be populated after the day of judgement. muslims also believe that the dead cannot hear you, so asking them to pray for us is useless because those prayers fall on ears that cannot hear. people who waste their time doing such things… now that’s what’s really sad :nope:.
just to make it short. THE ONE WHO WILL JUDGE HUMAN INCLUDING MUHAMMAD IS JESUS WHO WILL COME FROM HEAVEN(WITH IMAM MAHDI IN QUR’AN) ON LAST DAY. THAT ONE IN HEAVEN MUST BE MUCH BETTER THAN THE ONE IN THE GRAVE. JESUS RESIDE IN HEAVEN NOW MY FRIEND.
 
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ronald:
just to make it short. THE ONE WHO WILL JUDGE HUMAN INCLUDING MUHAMMAD IS JESUS WHO WILL COME FROM HEAVEN(WITH IMAM MAHDI IN QUR’AN) ON LAST DAY. THAT ONE IN HEAVEN MUST BE MUCH BETTER THAN THE ONE IN THE GRAVE. JESUS RESIDE IN HEAVEN NOW MY FRIEND.
why are you yelling for :confused: ? are you mad or something :ehh: ?

according to islamic belief only Allah will judge. fyi, we muslims believe that jesus will return before the day of judgement. he will come after the coming of al-imam al-mahdee. also fyi, we believe that after jesus returns he will lead a normal human life - not as prophet or messenger, but as one of prophet muhammad’s followers. he will get married and he will die, just like the rest of us.

and remember, we don’t believe he died at all, not on the cross, not in india (as some believe). Allah will not make him taste death twice.
 
r.gonzales------from Post#32:
and remember, we don’t believe he died at all, not on the cross, not in india (as some believe). Allah will not make him taste death twice.
To everybody, Hindus, Muslims, Budhists, Christians, All

In the world, there are Catholics called STIGMATICS. They have on their HANDS AND FEET and I think even on the side THE WOUNDS OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. These wounds just appear!!!

One very WORLD KNOWN stigmatist was Padre Pio del Pietrelcina. In fact if you google his name, hundreds of articles will appear. Google ----- “Padre Pio” stigmatist-----

MUSLIM IMAMS WOULD VISIT HIM. The wounds were there!!! They knew he was telling the truth. He is there. Curing people with miracles. He knew the sins of people, strangers, without even being told. Sometimes, he would be seen in TWO DIFFERENT PLACES SIMULTANEOUSLY. Sometimes, he would be FLOATING IN THE SKY.

WHY WOULD THERE BE STIGMATICS IF JESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS?
 
as for these “apostles” who are they? as i mentioned in the other thread, their identities (i.e., who they were, where they were born, their upbringings, their times of death, their trustworthiness, truthfulness and reliability, etc.) aren’t fully known. that doesn’t really make for credible witnesses now, does it? first names are no where sufficient enough to identify a person… as for your claim that they all were his personal friends, wasn’t john supposed to be a greek who wasn’t even alive during jesus’ time?
Here’s the “identity” of the apostles:

From Biblical accounts:

As he passed by, he saw Levi, son of Alphaeus, sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him. (Mark 2:14)

As he passed by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting their nets into the sea; they were fishermen. (Mark 1:16)

He walked along a little farther and saw James, the son of Zebedee, and his brother John. They too were in a boat mending their nets.

Then he called them. So they left their father Zebedee in the boat along with the hired men and followed him. (Mark 1:19-20)

…(he appointed the twelve:) Simon, whom he named Peter; James, son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James, whom he named Boanerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus; Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him. (Mark 3:16-19)

continued…
 
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r.gonzales:
why are you yelling for :confused: ? are you mad or something :ehh: ?

according to islamic belief only Allah will judge. fyi, we muslims believe that jesus will return before the day of judgement. he will come after the coming of al-imam al-mahdee. also fyi, we believe that after jesus returns he will lead a normal human life - not as prophet or messenger, but as one of prophet muhammad’s followers. he will get married and he will die, just like the rest of us.

and remember, we don’t believe he died at all, not on the cross, not in india (as some believe). Allah will not make him taste death twice.
What is this I read about Jesus coming and killing all the pigs? I must say I burst out laughing when I read it!😃
 
Non-Biblical accounts:

Simon Peter – prince of the apostles.

The most authoritative text informing us of Peter’s martyrdom in Rome is the first letter of Saint Clement the Roman to the Corinthians, generally dated at about 96 AD. In its turn, Clement’s letter cannot be read apart from one famed passage of Tacitus’ (XV, 38-45), in which the historian speaks of the famous fire that flared in Rome on the night of July 18-19, 64 and of its consequences. A comparison of these two testimonies seems to show that Peter was martyred during the anti-Christian persecution campaign unleashed by Nero after the fire and that the place of his martyrdom was the Vatican’s <horti.> The information Tacitus provides is undoubtedly very authoritative because the author of the Annales was writing not long after the events and he was able to quote eyewitnesses as well as from first-hand documents, such as the and the —respectively the minutes of Senate sessions and the official diaries of the Roman State.

According to Tacitus, then, the Christians whom he—as others do—describes as a “considerable multitude” (), were condemned to death not so much for causing the fire but because they were guilty of “hatred towards the human race” () generic). This was a serious charge because, the identification of the human race with the empire itself meant that anyone so charged was considered an enemy of the empire. The execution of the condemned, according to Tacitus’ information, took place during grandiose circus spectacles (), for which Nero made available his own circus in the Vatican that was the principal adornment of his <horti.> It is true, too, that the Vatican circus would have been a natural choice since, after the fire, it was the only area left in Rome for the kind of spectacle Nero desired. In fact, the Circus Maximus—the usual venue for Rome’s —could not be used because of fire damage.

St. Peter’s First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: “The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you: and so doth my son Mark” (v, 13). Babylon must here be identified with the Roman capital; since Babylon on the Euphrates, which lay in ruins, or New Babylon (Seleucia) on the Tigris, or the Egyptian Babylon near Memphis, or Jerusalem cannot be meant, the reference must be to Rome, the only city which is called Babylon elsewhere in ancient Christian literature (Apoc., xvii, 5; xviii, 10; “Oracula Sibyl.”, V, verses 143 and 159, ed. Geffcken, Leipzig, 1902, 111).

From Bishop Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria, who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, xv; III, xl; VI, xiv); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Adv. haer., III, i). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

continued…
 
Another testimony concerning the martyrdom of Peter and Paul is supplied by Clement of Rome in his Epistle to the Corinthians (written about A.D. 95-97), wherein he says (v): “Through zeal and cunning the greatest and most righteous supports [of the Church] have suffered persecution and been warred to death. Let us place before our eyes the good Apostles–St. Peter, who in consequence of unjust zeal, suffered not one or two, but numerous miseries, and, having thus given testimony (martyresas), has entered the merited place of glory”. He then mentions Paul and a number of elect, who were assembled with the others and suffered martyrdom “among us” (en hemin, i.e., among the Romans, the meaning that the expression also bears in chap. Iv). He is speaking undoubtedly, as the whole passage proves, of the Neronian persecution, and thus refers the martyrdom of Peter and Paul to that epoch.

In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: “I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive” (Ad. Rom., iv). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostless laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says: “You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom” (in Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, xxviii).

continued…
 
Irenaeus of Lyons, a native of Asia Minor and a disciple of Polycarp of Smyrna (a disciple of St. John), passed a considerable time in Rome shortly after the middle of the second century, and then proceeded to Lyons, where he became bishop in 177; he described the Roman Church as the most prominent and chief preserver of the Apostolic tradition, as “the greatest and most ancient church, known by all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul” (Adv. haer., III, iii; cf. III, i).

In his “Hypotyposes” (Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, IV, xiv), Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, says on the strength of the tradition of the presbyters: “After Peter had announced the Word of God in Rome and preached the Gospel in the spirit of God, the multitude of hearers requested Mark, who had long accompanied Peter on all his journeys, to write down what the Apostles had preached to them” (see above).

The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his “Dialogue with Proclus” (in Eusebius, “Hist. Eccl.”, II, xxviii) directed against the Montanists: “But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church”. By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case. At any rate the place of execution and burial of both were close together; St. Peter, who was executed on the Vatican, received also his burial there. Eusebius also refers to “the inscription of the names of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved to the present day on the burial-places there” (i.e. at Rome).

There thus existed in Rome an ancient epigraphic memorial commemorating the death of the Apostles. The obscure notice in the Muratorian Fragment (“Lucas optime theofile conprindit quia sub praesentia eius singula gerebantur sicuti et semote passionem petri evidenter declarat”, ed. Preuschen, Tubingen, 1910, p. 29) also presupposes an ancient definite tradition concerning Peter’s death in Rome.

continued…
 
**A****NDREW, **November 30, Feast

He was the first apostle, and the brother of Simon Peter. He is said to have been a missionary in Asia Minor and Greece, and possibly in areas in modern Russia and Poland. According to traditional accounts, he was crucified by order of the Roman Governor, Aegeas or Aegeates, at Patrae in Achaia, Greece on a decussate (i.e., X-shaped) cross; hence, St. Andrew’s Cross. His martyrdom took place during the reign of Nero, on 30 November, in the year 60.

**B****ARNABUS, **June 11, Memorial

Although not one of the original 12 apostles, Barnabus is numbered among the first of the faithful at Jerusalem. He is noted for preaching at Antioch and for being a companion of Saint Paul and accompanying him on his first journey. Barnabus was born in Cyprus, and he eventually returned there, preaching the Gospel. He was martyred c.61 at Salamis.

**B****ARTHOLOMEW, **August 24, Feast

Always mentioned in the Gospels in connection with Philip, he and Philip may have been close friends; Philip brought Bartholomew to Jesus. He is said to have preached in India, Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Armenia, Lycaonia, Phrygia, and on the shores of the Black Sea. According to traditional accounts, he was flayed alive and crucified, head downward, at Albanopolis, Armenia as punishment for having converted the King of Armenia to the Christian faith; the date is uncertain.

J****AMES the greater, July 25, Feast

Son of Zebedee and Salome and brother of Saint John the Apostle. (He is called “the Greater” because he became an apostle before Saint James the Lesser.) He is said to have preached in Samaria, Judea, and Spain. He was the first apostle to be martyred when he was put to death in Jerusalem by the sword at the command of Herod, c.44; (Acts 12:2).

J****AMES the Lesser (son of Alphaeus), May 3, Feast (with Philip)

He was the brother of Jude Thaddeus and the first Bishop of Jerusalem. He was martyred c.62 at Jerusalem by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple, then stoned and beaten with clubs and fuller’s mallets, while praying for his attackers.

J****OHN the Evangelist, December 27, Feast

He was the son of Zebedee and Salome and the brother of James the Greater. In the hour of our Lord’s Passion he stood at the foot of the cross, and Jesus made him the guardian of the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is said to have founded churches in Asia Minor and baptized converts in Samaria. Traditionally, the fourth Gospel, three Epistles, and the Book of Revelation have been attributed to his authorship. He survived all his fellow apostles, and died c.101 in exile at Ephesus.

J****UDAS (Jude Thaddeus), October 28, Feast (with Simon)

His parents were Cleophas, who died a martyr, and Mary, who stood at the foot of the cross with the Blessed Virgin Mary. He was the brother of James the Lesser. He is said to have preached in Syria, Mesopotamia, and Persia with Saint Simon, and was renowned for exorcising demons from pagan idols. It has been speculated—as hinted at by Eusebius of Caesaria (Church History, Book I, Chapter XIII)—that Jude carried the burial cloth of Jesus (now called the Shroud of Turin) to King Abgar of Edessa (now called Urfa, in Turkey). This would explain why Saint Jude is often depicted carrying a circular image of Christ—that is, the shroud when folded up into a case with a window that shows just the face. When Jude opened up the image to cure King Abgar of his illness, so it is said, both Jude and the image became radiant with light; hence the traditional flame on Saint Jude’s forehead. According to traditional accounts, Jude was beaten to death with a club, then beheaded, in Persia, sometime before the end of the first century.

continued…
 
**M****ATTHIAS, **May 14, Feast

He was chosen an apostle to replace Judas Iscariot (Acts 1:21–26). He is said to have preached the Gospel for more than 30 years in Judea, Cappadocia, Egypt, and Ethiopia. According to traditional accounts, he was stoned to death at Colchis c.80.

**P****HILP, **May 3, Feast (with James son of Alphaeus)

Originally a disciple of John the Baptist, he brought Bartholomew to Jesus. He is said to have preached in Asia Minor. According to traditional accounts, he was martyred c.80 at Hierapolis, Phrygia.

S****IMON the Zealot, October 28, Feast (with Jude)

Not much is known about Simon; he is said to have preached on the Black Sea, in Egypt, Northern Africa, Britain, and Persia. He was martyred, but the location is uncertain; some claim that he was crucified in Samaria; others claim that he was sawn in half at Suanir, Persia; still others claim that he was martyred at Weriosphora in Iberia.

T****HOMAS, also known as Didymus; “Doubting Thomas”, July 3, Feast (commemorates the celebration of the transference of his body to Edessa in Mesopotamia)

He is best remembered for doubting the resurrection until he was allowed to touch Christ’s wounds. He is said to have preached in Parthia, Persia, and India. According to traditional accounts, he was pierced through with spears by four soldiers, c.72 in India.

Happy reading Christian history.

Pio
 
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