Most are damned?

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What do you mean by insist? That’s a presumption that makes total sense with tradition and Scripture, and a Catholic is surely able to hold that position.
 
The fact of the matter is, we on earth do not know who is or isn’t in hell, nor how many souls may or may not be there. This despite the scary visions of souls in hell that some saints experienced which some people like to present as evidence. Here is a recent teaching from Cardinal Nichols on the matter

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-uk-an...ching-doesnt-put-any-specific-person-in-hell/

Further, you might want to look into the work of the theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar, specifically his work, “Dare We Hope That All Men Be Saved?” which presents solid reason to hope that there are less souls in hell than some people like to claim, perhaps, God willing, none at all. This is strictly a hope that a Catholic may embrace, however, but it is based on Sacred Scripture, and Church teaching and history.
 
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To one who insists, I would ask for the written authorities he relies on for insisting.

One’s shallow analysis is insufficient to reach and maintain a permanent conclusion that most are damned. Compelling written authority is need. And then also an analysis of the authorities that say the conclusion that most are damned is false.

I, for one, cannot know the mind of God. And it is not my job to express strong conclusions that I know just how God will judge each and every one of us and rightly conclude that most are damned.

Have most of us done things that qualify for damnation? Perhaps, mostly likely. Which of us have repented sincerely enough to qualify for a Just God’s MERCY??

The answer to this last question is impossible for any one of us to know for ONE person, much less most people.
 
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Maxirad said:
What should I say to a Catholic who insists that most human beings are damned upon death?
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Since God is responsible for the fixed order of grace laid out before us, and the number of the predestined and reprobate fixed from eternity (Catholic doctrine, by the way, not Calvinist), and man’s free will being only one player in the grand scheme of things, I couldn’t wrap my head around the idea that God would lay out such a sloppy economy of salvation that most people whom he created and loved would end up damned. That gives the devil a victory in numbers. I should not be forced to think that the kingdom of God would be outnumbered by the kingdom of the damned, especially since those numbers have been ordained by God himself anyway.

Those who tend to take Jesus’ words in a strict sense put too much credit on man’s free well, and forget that God’s grace is what moves first. God provides sufficient grace and he also knows how man’s free will will respond to any given order of grace. And it is God who lays out this fixed order of grace, so ultimately, his sovereignty is just as crucial as man’s free will. Since this order is immutable, the number of the predestined and reprobate are also immutable and ordained by God. From eternity, he had control over the number of the saved, so I would think that, in light of his desire for all to be saved (cf. 1 Tim 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), he would order the majority of men to be saved, not damned.

And on the flip side, I do not even waste my energy hoping hell is empty. From the words of the Saviour, it is clear that hell is populated. What I can hope for is that it is populated only by a minority of human beings.
 
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What makes you say the number of reprobate and saved is fixed for eternity in a way that robs free will from being so very important, as opposed to simply being knowledge of the All Knowing?

God gives us grace all the time. He give us sufficient grace to avoid sin at all times whenever it is needed. If God were to withdraw His Grace, we would not go long without mortal sin. When we fail, we do so despite the fact we had no need to fail and we’re given enough to not sin.
 
Maxirad said:
What should I say to a Catholic who insists that most human beings are damned upon death?
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I’d reply “I agree. For example, I’m pretty convinced you’re probably going to hell…”
 
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Kei said:
What makes you say the number of reprobate and saved is fixed for eternity in a way that robs free will from being so very important, as opposed to simply being knowledge of the All Knowing?

God gives us grace all the time. He give us sufficient grace to avoid sin at all times whenever it is needed. If God were to withdraw His Grace, we would not go long without mortal sin. When we fail, we do so despite the fact we had no need to fail and we’re given enough to not sin.
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Catholic teaching on predestination. Predestination is not mere foreknowledge, although it is one part of it. Predestination includes God’s act in giving grace, and while we must affirm sufficient grace (again, universal desire of salvation), we also must admit that not all people receive the same graces, or the same degree thereof. This is God’s pure will.

And no, Catholics cannot deny man’s free will. In any discussion of predestination in Catholic teaching, man’s free will is always a requirement, but not at the expense of God’s sovereignty, something Catholics often fail to consider. But this is an error, and is usually an over-reaction to Calvinism, which affirm’s God’s sovereignty at the expense of man’s free will. Catholicism, as usual, shows its wisdom and affirms both.

Predestination is difficult, very difficult, and the Catholic Church has laid out parameters which we need to affirm, but inside of which, we can play.

So that said, we affirm that the number of the predestined and reprobate are fixed, because predestination is part of the overall mystery of Divine Providence, and as with anything of God, Divine Providence is tied to the divine Will, which is identical with God’s essence, and is therefore immutable, as God is immutable. The order of grace (this one in which we live) is fixed from eternity and God has already factored in man’s free will in this overall plan.
 
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I hope this isn’t off topic and I apologize for my ignorance, but can a Catholic hope that there is a pathway for near universal salvation? I believe in Hell, and I agree with the church teachings 100%. But I hope that the majority of people make it heaven some day.
 
OKComputer said:
I hope this isn’t off topic and I apologize for my ignorance, but can a Catholic hope that there is a pathway for near universal salvation? I believe in Hell, and I agree with the church teachings 100%. But I hope that the majority of people make it heaven some day.
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Majority, yes. Just as I said earlier, however, don’t waste your energy on hoping hell will be devoid of human presence. At least some people are going to hell.
 
I can’t say one way or another, but we do know that people do go to Hell, Judas being the son of perdition.

There are tons and tons of quotes by saints about souls falling into hell.
 
Are you denying that grace is granted from free will actions? If I pray to God to “Grant me Grace so I do not sin”, will I not be granted immediately the prayer? If I pray the Rosary, will I not acquire a flood of Graces that I would not have gotten had I not prayed the Rosary?
 
Kei said:
Are you denying that grace is granted from free will actions? If I pray to God to “Grant me Grace so I do not sin”, will I not be granted immediately the prayer? If I pray the Rosary, will I not acquire a flood of Graces that I would not have gotten had I not prayed the Rosary?
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Actually, yes, I do deny it, to a degree. Catholic teaching is adamant that grace is unmerited. Even the very action of praying is a response to an actual grace which you did not ask for or earn. In Catholicism, God is always the first mover. You can therefore never earn grace, truly speaking. The first grace will always be unmerited.

However, in the same breath, I do not deny that God gives grace in response to a free action, such as prayer. This is part of the theology of merit, and would fall under what the Church calls “meritum de congruo”, or congruous merit. This is merit he grants solely out of his own goodness, not because of justice or because he had bound himself to it.

Again, you are wading into difficult waters and even the Church has not defined how grace and free will coexist, only that they do. How they do, however, is up to the theologians.

So with that, are you a Thomist or a Molinist?
 
I just wonder why people love to speculate on this.
I just worry about my own soul. It’s plenty hard to be good.
May the Good Lord have mercy on me, a miserable sinner.
 
Tulitas said:
I just wonder why people love to speculate on this.
I just worry about my own soul. It’s plenty hard to be good.
May the Good Lord have mercy on me, a miserable sinner.
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Yes, and no.

Unless questions are asked, there is the danger of heresy, such as what happened with the Calvinists. And we see how dangerous that can be.
 
I know. thanks for your reply. I just think it’s kind of pointless. We all have work to do. God bless you, I love your posts!
 
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